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neophyte
Guest
If they die in God’s friendship, they end up in heaven.
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mikekle
Guest
Thats what I think happens too, I have a feeling when a person is in this state, right before death, time probably slows down for them and the ‘exchange’ between God and the person may seem like hours or days, when in our time, its really just a few minutes that have passed.
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willymonfrete
Guest
the catholic church has both implicit and explicit members.we don’t know its implicit members.
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neophyte
Guest
God’s creation is part of his revelation of himself.
Scripture says that everyone has some idea of God. It’s undeniable that many non-Christians are seeking God - they may have false ideas about Him but they’re seeking Him nonetheless, and NO ONE can seek God except on God’s initiative. The fact that they’re seeking God, however imperfectly, shows that He is working in their lives.
Romans 1:18-21 says “The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.”
So here scripture explicitly says that one can know God by natural revelation, right? Someone who does evil can’t legitimately claim that he never knew about God, because God made sure through creation that everyone knows him. The passage doesn’t say that they’re wicked because they don’t know God, what it says is that they’re wicked because they know God well enough and they reject him anyway!
A Protestant might say that that level of knowledge is not salvific, that you can’t be saved if that’s the limit of your knowledge of God. But there are two problems with that viewpoint. First, that would mean that people are lost because God requires them to know what they cannot know, and they cannot know it because God didn’t allow them to know it. That would violate God’s perfect justice. Second, it would mean that one can only be saved through the attainment of information which is hidden to all but a select few, which is at the core of the gnostic heresies.
If one has to have heard of Jesus in order to be saved, then never having had the opportunity to hear of him is a really good excuse for never having heard of him. But the bible specifically says that even these people have no excuse for rejecting God, because they did know about him and they rejected him anyway. What gets you into hell is rejecting God. If you don’t know about Jesus then you can’t very well be culpable for rejecting him, because you can only reject what you know about. God holds us accountable only for what we know, and not for what we cannot know.
And so the Church teaches that even these people may be saved (not that they will be saved, but only that they may be saved) through the merits of Christ, by means of which we do not know.
I like the way C. S. Lewis said it in Chapter 15 of The Last Battle. In it, Emeth tells of his meeting with Aslan:
Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honor) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, “Son, thou art welcome.” But I said, “Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash.” He answered, “Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.” Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said “Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one”" The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, “It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites - I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For he and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?” I said “Lord, thou knowest how much I understand.” But I said also (for the truth constrained me), “Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.” “Beloved,” said the Glorious One, "unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."
Anyone who is saved, is saved through Christ
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steve_b
Guest
That sends a huge mixed signal.
On Your Marks: The Church Is One
Why not commit yourself to spending a few minutes each day reading a section of the Catechism? I guarantee that you’ll be a better Catholic for it.
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steve_b
Guest
In this day and age, when information has never been so easily accessed, the following puts responsibility where it belongs when a person has all the amenities at their disposal
1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
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I always wondered, how did Lewis not became Catholic
n:
True
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neophyte
Guest
Indeed, but that’s a different case than the one I was speaking of. It’s more like the situation of the dwarfs than that of Emeth.
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fhansen
Guest
We’re judged on what we did with what we were given: knowledge, grace, opportunities, background, experiences, intelligence, etc.
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48
God is a God of infinite justice, mercy, and love.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Three points:
- Everyone who dies in a state of grace will have eternal life in Heaven, perhaps after a temporary stay in Purgatory.
- Persons can enter the state of grace by a baptism of water, or desire, or blood. Not only baptized Christians, but all persons in the state of grace (even if only by a baptism of desire) are children of God by spiritual adoption.
- The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.
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steve_b
Guest
I would just say,
One is NOT guaranteed to remain in the state of grace. Getting BACK to the state of grace once that state is lost through mortal sin, is NOT something one corrects on their own terms and imaginations.
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fhansen
Guest
And mortal sin is always an act against charity (love) and destroys it in man’s heart. We can apply this fact while looking at salvation from the broad perspective, in the Church’s teaching on the Particular Judgement which quotes St John of the Cross at the end of the paragraph:
**"1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597"**
The role of the Church is to help bring man to this state of justice, to this state of grace, to this love of God and neighbor which is established and grows as we enter and maintain *communion *with God.
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o_mlly
Guest
The Church is instrument; not end. The end is the Beatific Vision. The Catholic Church is the ordinary means but not His exclusive means. We do not limit a loving God who desires all men to come to salvation.
At the moment of our death we depart our temporal life and enter into eternity. At that moment our soul and its disposition is fixed for eternity, for outside time, things do not change. All souls in a state of grace, baptized imperfect Christians as well as earnest seekers, will be given their reward. Purgatory, less desirable than a non-stop flight, is still a reward.
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steve_b
Guest
True.
Nor do we therefore, want to presume back on a loving God, that He excuses man who did his will all his life, and was unwilling to do things God’s way.
o:
True.
And we can’t ignore either, the one who judges, already told us in advance, that few die unfortunately, in the state of grace. Matthew 7:14
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willymonfrete
Guest
subists in is actually a superior way of saying it because of what subsists means in the scholastic meaning.Are you suggesting “subsists in” somehow changes anything?
I would change back to what I posted with one addition…AND His promises
Because
Therefore,
- Jesus founded one Church with a hierarchy He established on Peter as the leader, thereby making it superior. To say less would be indifferent to what Jesus did.
- “subsists in” ewtn.com/library/doctrine/subsistit.htm doesn’t change anything as you can see.
The Catholic Church is superior because of her founder AND His promises
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steve_b
Guest
Yet It’s interesting how many people see “subsists in” as a weak way of saying it. That’s why I gave the link explaining the term.
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