C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
I believe Catholicism is the fullest expression of the truth of Christianity.
I believe all Christians subsist within the Catholic Church even if they are not in full communion with the Church.
- Status
I believe all Christians subsist within the Catholic Church even if they are not in full communion with the Church.
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flameburns623
Guest
So long as you remain outside the RCC through no fault of your own, due to an ‘invincible ignorance’ of your duty to be visibly conformed to the Catholic Church through the Sacraments; so long as you are obedient to the Grace of God and His revelation of Himself to you as you are best able to receive it; so long as you are genuinely contrite for all of your sins (some would say ‘perfectly contrite’, which is to say, sorry for your sins out of a perfect love for God as you understand Him); and so long as you WOULD become Catholic if by some act of Divine Grace, your ignorance were overcome and you came to know that you must join the Catholic Church to be saved: so long as those conditions remain in place, you are a member of the Catholic Church ‘by desire’. Remember all of the elements involved:
- THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN outside visible union with the Church;
- INVINCIBLY IGNORANT of your obligation to join the RCC;
- OBEDIENT TO THE BEST YOU KNOW by the light of Christ you have received;
- GENUINELY (or, PERFECTLY) CONTRITE TO GOD for all of your sins, as your conscience and the Light of Christ reveals these to you;
- WILLING TO SUBMIT TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH if you became aware that She is the One True Church established by Christ.
Infants who are baptised but die before the age of full discretion are admitted to Heaven, irrespective of the denomination of their parents so far as I know. Unbaptised infants are at a minimum received into a condition of ‘natural bliss’ (i.e.: Limbo); the RCC presently leaves their condition up to the mercy of God.
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flameburns623
Guest
For the record: faith is a gift and ‘intellectual assent’ is not an essential element of that gift. For those with normal intellectual capacities and who are already outside the RCC by an accident of birth, intellectual assent would be necessary to become a Catholic. However the ability to give that intellectual assent would be part of the gift of faith. For those with diminished intellectual capacity, the grace and mercy of God would be specially operative.
S
Steadfast
Guest
“Invincible ignorance” may be the most useless theological convenience ever formulated.
Any non-Catholic may be invincibly ignorant, there is no way of knowing.
Any non-Catholic may be invincibly ignorant, there is no way of knowing.
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flameburns623
Guest
The point is–God knows. It extends hope that the mercy of God is at work even in the lives of non-Catholics. The alternatives are:
- Universalism–everybody goes to Heaven. (And God has a Church, why, exactly?)
- Triumphalism–we Catholics have the whole truth, everybody else goes to Hell.
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Della
Guest
Exactly. Well put. :clapping:
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Steadfast
Guest
Bah, I don’t buy it.
I stopped being Catholic because I no longer believe as they do. I do not believe that I was ignorant at any step of the way.
I researched everything, and since I am being personal let me also be honest, I struggled, quite literally for years before I made a clean break.
But I did make such a break and I neither need nor want a ticket stub to get back in.
You may take my complete imperviousness to all the arguments presented on this messageboard as some evidence of my commitment either to obstinacy or informed conviction, as you see fit.
I stopped being Catholic because I no longer believe as they do. I do not believe that I was ignorant at any step of the way.
I researched everything, and since I am being personal let me also be honest, I struggled, quite literally for years before I made a clean break.
But I did make such a break and I neither need nor want a ticket stub to get back in.
You may take my complete imperviousness to all the arguments presented on this messageboard as some evidence of my commitment either to obstinacy or informed conviction, as you see fit.
D
Della
Guest
Well, that explains that. I had just the opposite experience. I too struggled, tossed and turned for months, prayed and argued with God, read everything I could get my hands on and had to finally give up what I’d been taught about the Church (all negative) and realized I’d been seriously misled.
Either Christ founded his Church or he didn’t. Either Peter and the Apostles were appointed as Christ’s representatives on earth or they weren’t. Either Paul meant what he said about one faith, one body, one baptism or he didn’t. Either the Church Fathers were right or they weren’t. It all came down to authority–who truly has it and who doesn’t. I had to bow to Scripture, history, and the truth.
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flameburns623
Guest
And you, confirmed in your obstinancy and convinced of your convictions, are posting on a Catholic apologetics message board . . . .why?
Please know you are in my prayers.
S
Steadfast
Guest
Please note what I actually wrote was: “evidence of my commitment either to obstinacy or informed conviction, as you see fit.”
The idea being that you, as a Catholic may consider obstinacy what I, or another Protestant may see to be informed conviction.
It’s an either/or, not a both/and.
As for your question: I’m just here to do the best I can to keep you all honest.
I appreciate your prayers but if you believe in the sovereignty of “free will” as well as this myth of “invincible ignorance” I will ask that these prayers not contain any supplications for my reversion to what I have repudiated.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Perhaps we will pray for your ability to discern the truth.
That’s a good pray for all of us.
S
Steadfast
Guest
I guess it can’t hurt, but it’s something like praying for a safe journey for someone who has already arrived at their destination.Perhaps we will pray for your ability to discern the truth.
That’s a good pray for all of us.
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flameburns623
Guest
I believe in the sovereignty of God.
So no: I don’t.
But I also don’t believe in taunting or antagonizing you. May God richly bless you!
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
So you are closed to all learning and revelation?
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eucharisteo
Guest
SO! You have arrive…tada…behold the great one…he has arrived…he is all knowing and has it all. We must strive to be like him.
couldn’t help it.
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Steadfast
Guest
Now this is interesting.
I’ll accept this because I accuse Catholics of the same kind of grandiose BS around here all the time (with far more justification I think, but so be it), but really now, Euch, what did I say that would lead you to make a fool of yourself like this?
Don’t pray for me to revert to Roman Catholicism.
Wow, what nerve!
S
Steadfast
Guest
Help me understand.
Do you just want me to generally “discern the truth” or is this code for “figure out that the RCC is right and revert”?
I’ve already attempted the latter (several times).
If all you want is for me to be wiser and smarter, well, sure then, pray away!
But if you can’t disentangle them then it would probably be best if you refrain.
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
I won’t speak for Euch, but I would imagine it was because you compared it to praying for someone who had already reached their destination on a journey… which may have appeared to Euch as meaning you didn’t need his/her prayers anymore because you already had it all figured out… but that’s just a guess.
SD
R
ralphinal
Guest
Steadfast,
To say that I will not pray for you to find rest in God would be a lie. In the end, we all need all the prayers that we can get up until that time that we enter heaven. Well, or go to hell, I guess. In other words, there is no reason for any of us to stop praying for anyone. You have no more arrived in heaven than I have. We are still here on earth working out our salvation with fear and trimbling.
Invincible ignorance DOES NOT always mean that the person does not know the teaching of the Church. It can also be a state of inability to accept the teachings for reasons that are beyond human understanding. Just like the ancient Jews could not accept Christ does not inherently mean all of them were damned. Even Paul said as much. The fact that you were well educated in the Faith does not remove the possibility that you have some block against accepting it, or that there is another reason that GOd has not allowed you full acceptance even though you have tried more than once. God may have another role for you or this may be part of the plan.
Rejection of the faith to the point where you lose salvation INCLUDES knowing full well that the Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Christ AND that we are all called to be members of that Church and then walking away from it.
Everyone else,
We should all pray that God allows each of us full understanding of his will in our lives and his plan for us. We should all pray that each of us respond to the grace given to us by God for our salvation. Our friend Steadfast is on the same difficult journey as the rest of us. He has found a path that he sees as being the one God has for him. That path may or may not lead him back to Rome. That does not mean that he is heading right to hell.
To say that I will not pray for you to find rest in God would be a lie. In the end, we all need all the prayers that we can get up until that time that we enter heaven. Well, or go to hell, I guess. In other words, there is no reason for any of us to stop praying for anyone. You have no more arrived in heaven than I have. We are still here on earth working out our salvation with fear and trimbling.
Invincible ignorance DOES NOT always mean that the person does not know the teaching of the Church. It can also be a state of inability to accept the teachings for reasons that are beyond human understanding. Just like the ancient Jews could not accept Christ does not inherently mean all of them were damned. Even Paul said as much. The fact that you were well educated in the Faith does not remove the possibility that you have some block against accepting it, or that there is another reason that GOd has not allowed you full acceptance even though you have tried more than once. God may have another role for you or this may be part of the plan.
Rejection of the faith to the point where you lose salvation INCLUDES knowing full well that the Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Christ AND that we are all called to be members of that Church and then walking away from it.
Everyone else,
We should all pray that God allows each of us full understanding of his will in our lives and his plan for us. We should all pray that each of us respond to the grace given to us by God for our salvation. Our friend Steadfast is on the same difficult journey as the rest of us. He has found a path that he sees as being the one God has for him. That path may or may not lead him back to Rome. That does not mean that he is heading right to hell.
A
Among_Strangers
Guest
Festivus?
- Status