What happens to the Rest of Us?

[allischalmers]

Will God choose practicing satanists for salvation?

How about Muslim suicide bombers?

If he desires too he will.

 

[Della]

If he desires too he will.

That’s a very Catholic thing to say, and true. We cannot know anyone’s heart nor how culpable anyone might be for their actions. This is why the Church has never stated who is in hell, not Judas, not Hitler, not anyone.

Still, Jesus prayed for unity and has never desired anything else. St. Paul preached unity–that there is one body, one faith, one baptism. These things are also true. Thousands of denominations is not what Jesus and the Apostles desired or founded.

Therefore, it is only reasonable to say that only one Christian body has the fullness of truth, passed down both orally and in written form from Jesus, to the Apostles and on to the Church today. If not, Jesus wasn’t who he claimed and our faith is just another among many with no more weight of belief or right to our allegiance than any other.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That’s a very Catholic thing to say, and true. We cannot know anyone’s heart nor how culpable anyone might be for their actions. QUOTE]

This was not a matter of knowing someone’s heart.

This is a hypothetical question regarding a practicing satanist.

I’m assuming that this person’s heart is known to be corrupt by God.

 

[Della]

Della;4357123:

That’s a very Catholic thing to say, and true. We cannot know anyone’s heart nor how culpable anyone might be for their actions.

This was not a matter of knowing someone’s heart.

This is a hypothetical question regarding a practicing satanist.

I’m assuming that this person’s heart is known to be corrupt by God.

I understand. Still, Satanists have been known to repent–some who were baptized and brought up in a Christian home might have an instant of enlightenment as they pass from this world to eternity. I know it’s not very likely, but like they say on Mythbusters, it’s plausible–due solely to the mercy of God who truly sees the innermost reaches of the human heart.

This doesn’t by any means say that we ought to encourage anyone to risk their souls by becoming a Satanist while thinking this is fine or right, but only that God can reach anyone. If we don’t say that, then we limit God’s mercy. The only limits to God’s mercy are the ones we place on ourselves. This is why we pray daily for poor sinners, lost in sin and self-deception. Yes?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4357132:

I understand. Still, Satanists have been known to repent–some who were baptized and brought up in a Christian home might have an instant of enlightenment as they pass from this world to eternity.

I understand that and I agree with you.

However, that is not the case in the hypothetical I presented.

I specifically said a “practicing” Satanist, not a former Satanist.

 

[Della]

Della;4357185:

CHESTERTONRULES;4357132:

I understand that and I agree with you.

However, that is not the case in the hypothetical I presented.

I specifically said a “practicing” Satanist, not a former Satanist.

And I agree. A person practicing Satanism has most likely hardened his heart against the Holy Spirit. And yet, if he has been coerced into it or brought up in it and knows no better or some other mitigating factor, he may still be saved if he sees the truth and repents, even at the last instant of his early life.

For the hardened sinner who will not see (not cannot but will not) the grace and mercy of God cannot reach him.

It puts me in mind of the dwarfs in C. S. Lewis’ “The Last Battle” who would not see the presence of Aslan or banquet set before them but only straw and a stable. Aslan’s voice was only growling to them, not a voice they could understand. There definitely are people like that, and Satanists spring naturally to our minds as being such people. I see what you’re saying.

My only contention is that we cannot set limits on the grace and mercy of God. We are the ones who harden ourselves against him, not he against us. And crack in that hardening is an opportunity for God’s mercy and grace to get through. This is why we never abandon hope for anyone, but rather pray they will let God’s grace soften their hearts and open their minds to see the goodness of the Lord.

 

[allischalmers]

But God does harden peoples hearts, Pharaoh is one that I can think of. Also people do not harden their hearts against God, they are born that way. No one wants to give up their sinful ways. It is God that changes the heart so that we accept his gift of salvation

 

[Della]

But God does harden peoples hearts, Pharaoh is one that I can think of. Also people do not harden their hearts against God, they are born that way. No one wants to give up their sinful ways. It is God that changes the heart so that we accept his gift of salvation

We cannot extrapolate how God deals with all hearts from the way he dealt with Pharaoh. That was a very specific situation before the Age of Grace, that was ushered in with the Incarnation.

And I cannot agree that all people everywhere do not want to give up their sins (some people are more tender of heart than others) nor that people are born totally depraved. God created us good, but mankind fell from grace. This did not negate the good of God’s creation but rather spoiled it, depriving us of our innocence, robbing us of moral fiber, and clouding our reason so that we are more easily attracted to the world, the flesh, and the devil.

And yes, I am familiar with the Scripture verses used to back up your contentions. But, we must take the whole of the Bible and the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles from which the NT comes (especially as informed by the Gospel of Christ) into account when talking about God’s grace and mercy. We cannot cherrypick verses out of their contexts in order to make Scripture line up with artificially deduced theological construct(s).

God is the judge, not us. We can never give up on anyone nor decide who is in hell and who isn’t. That simply hasn’t been given to us to know.

 

[allischalmers]

The whole of scripture tells us what we were like before we are regenerated, it is summed by these words “there is non good no not one”

 

[Della]

The whole of scripture tells us what we were like before we are regenerated, it is summed by these words “there is non good no not one”

Sorry, that isn’t a good summation of the whole of the Bible and Sacred Tradition it’s only a summation, using one Bible verse, of total depravity. The truth about the nature of man is fuller and most complex than that.

 

[eucharisteo]

I won’t speak for Euch, but I would imagine it was because you compared it to praying for someone who had already reached their destination on a journey… which may have appeared to Euch as meaning you didn’t need his/her prayers anymore because you already had it all figured out… but that’s just a guess.

SD

 

[eucharisteo]

Please note what I actually wrote was: “evidence of my commitment either to obstinacy or informed conviction, as you see fit.”

The idea being that you, as a Catholic may consider obstinacy what I, or another Protestant may see to be informed conviction.

It’s an either/or, not a both/and.

As for your question:** I’m just here to do the best I can to keep you all honest.**

**I appreciate your prayers but if you believe in the sovereignty of “free will” as well as this myth of “invincible ignorance” I will ask that these prayers not contain any supplications for my reversion to what I have repudiated./**quote]
This is why I pegged you as anti-Catholic. This is very anti-Catholic to say such a thing when in a Catholic’s home…CAF. That’s like me knocking on doors and telling someone they’re going to hell or that their faith is a lie and that they need to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or suffer eternal damnation. Which some of my former Protestant brothers and sisters do.

 

[Peter_J]

Steadfast;4351059:

Please note what I actually wrote was: "evidence of my commitment either to

obstinacy or informed conviction, as you see fit."

The idea being that you, as a Catholic may consider obstinacy what I, or another Protestant may see to be informed conviction.

It’s an either/or, not a both/and.

As for your question:** I’m just here to do the best I can to keep you all honest.**

I appreciate your prayers but if you believe in the sovereignty of “free will” as well as this myth of “invincible ignorance” I will ask that these prayers not contain any supplications for my reversion to what I have repudiated.
This is why I pegged you as anti-Catholic. This is very anti-Catholic to say such a thing when in a Catholic’s home…CAF.

“Anti-Catholic”?

Are you making a joke?

 

[allischalmers]

Sorry, that isn’t a good summation of the whole of the Bible and Sacred Tradition it’s only a summation, using one Bible verse, of total depravity. The truth about the nature of man is fuller and most complex than that.

The nature of man is that he is inherently evil. The only reason that he is not is bad as he could be is because the the Holy Spirit presently constrains him. The Bible tells us that in the lasts days God will withdraw the Holy Spirit from the earth and man will show his full potential for being evil. I think we are seeing that today

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The nature of man is that he is inherently evil. The only reason that he is not is bad as he could be is because the the Holy Spirit presently constrains him. The Bible tells us that in the lasts days God will withdraw the Holy Spirit from the earth and man will show his full potential for being evil. I think we are seeing that today

The nature of man is as God created it.

God has given us freedom. Without his grace we won’t consistently choose the right path.

However, his grace is offered to all men and he wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[Della]

The nature of man is that he is inherently evil. The only reason that he is not is bad as he could be is because the the Holy Spirit presently constrains him. The Bible tells us that in the lasts days God will withdraw the Holy Spirit from the earth and man will show his full potential for being evil. I think we are seeing that today

Once again, this is how you see it through your Calvinist lens and interpretation of the end times based on the erroneous rapture theory.

I have already stated what the nature of man is according to ancient Sacred Tradition, that includes the whole of the Bible. As for the end times, they began with the Incarnation. There have been many eras in which the world has been plunged into darkness. We may be living in a final age of darkness, or the world may tottle on for centuries or millenium. We cannot know–as Jesus told us.

So, it is our duty to remain faithful no matter what is going on in the world, through prosperity or disaster, war or peace, etc. until Jesus comes again. And we do that through God’s grace and mercy. How we employ the graces and mercies of God will determine how we will be judged in the end.

 

[allischalmers]

Once again, this is how you see it through your Calvinist lens and interpretation of the end times based on the erroneous rapture theory.

Divine election is one of the strongest doctures taught in the Bible.I know that people do not like it but you can not accept some of the Bible and reject the rest. Opps! maybe I shouldn’t have said that, I know what you are going come back to me with now.

 

[Della]

Divine election is one of the strongest doctures taught in the Bible.I know that people do not like it but you can not accept some of the Bible and reject the rest. Opps! maybe I shouldn’t have said that, I know what you are going come back to me with now.

Of course God can and does save whom he wills. That is Catholic teaching, as well. But it is also Catholic teaching that we are to do what Christ commanded us to do to be saved. So, it’s not a one way street here. We participate in God’s plan of salvation through our obedience. Still, he is the final judge of hearts, not us. Only God knows who will be saved and who won’t. Yes?

 

[allischalmers]

Of course God can and does save whom he wills. That is Catholic teaching, as well. But it is also Catholic teaching that we are to do what Christ commanded us to do to be saved. So, it’s not a one way street here. We participate in God’s plan of salvation through our obedience. Still, he is the final judge of hearts, not us. Only God knows who will be saved and who won’t. Yes?

God calls everyone to salvation, that is called a general call but there is also God’s effectual call, meaning that if will have a positive effect on the person that recieves it. They may try to resist but they will be a most miserable person until they give their life over to the Lord Jesus. I know, I experienced it

 

[Della]

God calls everyone to salvation, that is called a general call but there is also God’s effectual call, meaning that if will have a positive effect on the person that recieves it. They may try to resist but they will be a most miserable person until they give their life over to the Lord Jesus. I know, I experienced it

“God’s effectual call” isn’t a term I knew when I was Episcopalian or Pentecostal (long story there). Is it a term used by Calvinists Baptists?

Anyway, the Catholic way of expressing what you experienced is “an awakening to faith”. God lets us know our need of him and we are not truly satisfied until we have given ourselves to him. I think we’re more on the same page here than it might first appear.