What happens to the wine (blood of christ)?

[adolfo123]

When there is no sacrarium or ground available, the soil of a potted plant is acceptable.

The idea is to allow the elements to continue to decompose.

As a general rule, as long as the Eucharistic species have the appearance of bread and/or wine,Our Blessed Lord is present; appearances meaning the physical properties.

It’s unfortunate, but I know of some cases where parishoners have been asked to help out with the washing of purificators and corporals and they simply take them home and put them directly into the washing machine w/o any soaking. They may think they’re helping the parish, but they really are cheating their own faith when this is allowed to happen (not to mention the incongruency in respect for the Blessed Sacrament).

One reason that linen is chosen as the material for purificators and corporals is because of its high degree of absorbency…less of a possibility that traces will be left behind. The way I had it explained to me was that once wine (speaking of the physical appearances here) has been diluted with water to a certain point (I forget the exact ratio) it no longer considered to have the physical appearance of wine.

wow would it not be better to keep in a sacred place… If I had the blood of Jesus in a cloth I would treasure it… why not give it to faith Catholics???

 

[tee_eff_em]

wow would it not be better to keep in a sacred place… If I had the blood of Jesus in a cloth I would treasure it… why not give it to faith Catholics???

Because, as much as we might wish otherwise, it is impossible to count on them to keep it from profanation.

:twocents:
tee

 

[NeedImprovement]

Because, as much as we might wish otherwise, it is impossible to count on them to keep it from profanation.

:twocents:
tee

Amen

(BTW very interesting siggy Tee - unique the moving part]).

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Since were looking at rare,what about this one for rumination…?..(has to be at least medium rare if not extremely rare):

It is still possible that a lay person might assist in the purification of the sacred vessels…I know of one such person. He is defined in Canon 930 § 2, as the properly instructed lay person.

Insights…?

A properly instructed Lay person may help the priest perform these functions, when necessary. In other words they may hand the ciborium or chalice to the priest, pour the water for him, hand him the Purificator, etc.

 

[maggiemay2u]

The US did have an indult, which has expired and was intentionally NOT renewed by Rome. Only a priest, deacon or Instituted Acolyte may purify after Holy Communion. EMHC however may continue to consume the remaining Blood of Christ that is in their individual chalice after Holy communion.

Somebody forgot to tell Cardinal Mahony

EMHC’s are directed to perform the purification of all vessels of The Blood, including the priest’s chalice…

 

[NeedImprovement]

A properly instructed Lay person may help the priest perform these functions, when necessary. In other words they may hand the ciborium or chalice to the priest, pour the water for him, hand him the Purificator, etc.

This particular lay person has to go a little further Brother Rich. The priest’s infimity is progressively extensive. He is wheelchair bound , half paralyzed from a stroke and has advanced Parkinsons. For all intents and purposes, he only has one hand/arm that functions, and this in a limited manner. He has difficulty trying to grip the Host and break off a small fragment of the consecrated Host to mingle with the Precious Blood, plus a whole litany of other obstacles which have threatened his capacity to preside.

I won’t inundate you with all the details but for 9 years the priest and the lay person have worked closely together, praying over and solving these problems as they arise while the illness slowly gains ground. Regarding purifying the vessels, although the priest is unable to wipe them with the purificator, he is still relatively able to consume the ablution although often it induces coughing … periodically prolonged coughing…( due to a little travelling into the lungs rather than the esophagus).

I can tell you that one of the things the lay person is praying for earnestly is that the day doesn’t come where the illness has rendered Father no longer able to consume the ablution. :sad_yes:

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

This particular lay person has to go a little further Brother Rich. The priest’s infimity is progressively extensive. He is wheelchair bound , half paralyzed from a stroke and has advanced Parkinsons. For all intents and purposes, he only has one hand/arm that functions, and this in a limited manner. He has difficulty trying to grip the Host and break off a small fragment of the consecrated Host to mingle with the Precious Blood, plus a whole litany of other obstacles which have threatened his capacity to preside.

I won’t inundate you with all the details but for 9 years the priest and the lay person have worked closely together, praying over and solving these problems as they arise while the illness slowly gains ground. Regarding purifying the vessels, although the priest is unable to wipe them with the purificator, he is still relatively able to consume the ablution although often it induces coughing … periodically prolonged coughing…( due to a little travelling into the lungs rather than the esophagus).

I can tell you that one of the things the lay person is praying for earnestly is that the day doesn’t come where the illness has rendered Father no longer able to consume the ablution. :sad_yes:

I don’t want to sound insensitive but it sounds like maybe he should only be con-celebrating Mass.

 

[adolfo123]

Because, as much as we might wish otherwise, it is impossible to count on them to keep it from profanation.

:twocents:
tee

so we keep the bread in the tabernacle but throw away the blood of Christ… this sounds like profanation…

 

[passus]

so we keep the bread in the tabernacle but throw away the blood of Christ… this sounds like profanation…

The Blood of Christ is not thrown away; it is consumed. Whatever is left on the linens ceases to be the Blood of Christ when it dissipates in the washing water.

Would you feel comfortable sending people home with hosts in their pockets?

 

[adolfo123]

The Blood of Christ is not thrown away; it is consumed. Whatever is left on the linens ceases to be the Blood of Christ when it dissipates in the washing water.

Would you feel comfortable sending people home with hosts in their pockets?

so was the blood of jesus on the cross stoped being his blood once it hit the grown …no so how does the wine stop being his blood once its mixed with water … it does not make and sense even in the physical… and atom is always and atom … no matter how small it gets…its still the blood of jesus

 

[passus]

so was the blood of jesus on the cross stoped being his blood once it hit the grown …no so how does the wine stop being his blood once its mixed with water … it does not make and sense even in the physical… and atom is always and atom … no matter how small it gets…its still the blood of jesus

The Real Presence in the Eucharist remains present so long as the species subsist. We know that something subsists because we can perceive of that something. When we can no longer perceive of the Eucharistic species as discernible, much like we could not possibly perceive of a drop of Precious Blood in 5 gallons of water, it is safe to say that the Real Presence no longer exists.

The Real Presence is not inseparably bound to the bread and wine, molecule for molecule and atom for atom. Those are merely accidental qualities of the existence of the Real Presence.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Some of the posts on the thread sent me reading…(my mom would’ve been proud of you guys ) It will probably take two posts to explain what I found:

PART I

so was the blood of jesus on the cross stoped being his blood once it hit the grown …no so how does the wine stop being his blood once its mixed with water … it does not make and sense even in the physical… and atom is always and atom … no matter how small it gets…its still the blood of jesus

Actually, very soon after it hit the air, notwithstanding the ground, the PreciousBlood of Jesus shed on the Cross would have begun to undergo chemical changes and decomposition. Here’s a commentary on that subject of how human blood reacts to certain catalysts in that situation - from a site dedicated to the Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano…miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html :

“…Another unusual characteristic of the blood is that when liquified, it has retained the chemical properties of freshly shed blood. When we cut ourselves and stain our clothes, the chemical properties of the blood are gone within 20 minutes to a half hour. If blood is not refrigerated within an hour maximum, the composition rapidly breaks down. If blood were taken from a dead body, it would lose its qualities quickly through decay. This blood is over 1250 years old and still contains all its properties, chemicals and protein of freshly shed blood. And yet in the testing, it was determined that no preservatives of any kind were found in the blood…”

There is no such thing as an atom of bread or an atom of wine. I’m no microbiologist but wine is so complex , it is made up of many kinds of different molecules, such as: Acetic acid, anthochyanins, caftaric acid, catechins, citric acid, gallic acid, lactic acid malic acid, quercetin, reservatrol, succinic acid, sulfur dioxide, tannins, tartaric acid.

Here are the three main classifications of wheat flour components summarized from the following site: library.wur.nl/wda/dissertations/dis4389.pdf

STARCH “…A wheat flour contains around 80% starch (based on dry matter). The native starch
granules are between around 5 and 55 μm in size and consist of two different types
of polymers: amylose (around 30%) and amylopectin (around 70%). Amylose is a
linear molecule of α-1,4 linked D-glucopyranosyl units and amylopectin is a
branched molecule of α-1,4 linked D-glucopyranosyl units with about one α-1,6 link
each 20 monomer units (33)…

PROTEINS “…
The second largest component present in wheat flour is protein (content 10-15%).
The largest part of these proteins have the unique properties that enable the
production of a viscoelastic dough with good gas holding abilities and the
preparation of a proper bread due to the fact that they are mainly water insoluble.
Osborne (35) classified the wheat flour proteins into four groups based on their
differences in solubility: albumins that are soluble in water, globulins soluble in salt
solutions, gliadins soluble in 70% ethanol and glutenins partly soluble in dilute acid
or alkali. The major part of wheat proteins (80%) consists of gliadins and glutenins with the glutenins being the proteins that primarily provide the structure to the
dough (36). The gluten proteins have heat-setting properties and undergo
crosslinking reactions in the temperature range 70-160ｰC which results in the…

OTHER “…
Lipids and non-starch polysaccharides (NSP) are two minor components in wheat
flour. The lipid content varies between 1.5 and 2.5%. Pentosans (mainly
arabinoxylans (AX)) are the most important NSPs and they can influence the water
absorption of the flour. Pentosans are usually divided into water extractable
pentosans (WEP, mainly water extractable AX) and water unextractable solids
(WUS, mainly water unextractable AX). Wheat flour contains about 2-3%
pentosans of which 20-25% are water soluble (36 .”

Okay give the eyes a break for a minute

 

[NeedImprovement]

See if summarizing it this way makes sense to anybody :

PART II

Here is a very basic description of wine’s composition from: edenwines.co.uk/Glossary_w.html

"…Chemically speaking, wine is a hydro-alcoholic solution: around 85% water and 10 to 15% alcohol; the rest is composed of 20 to 30 grams per liter of soluble substances which make up the wine’s dry extract, and some 100 milligrams of volatile substances per liter …”

Now, on the more detailed part of the analysis, from this site : theworldwidewine.com/Wine_trivia/How_many_wine.php

Comes arguably the most fortuitous (Freudian slip ?) statement on the complex composition of wine:
“…Chemists have identified over 250 compounds in wine, making it more complex than blood serum…”

So it would appear that whether or not peoples’ interpretation, even of the “common estimation” of the appearances were to vary, whether we’re arguing qualitative and quantitative, the methods for purification and care of sacred particles is both chemically and physically sound… Water is used in the care for possible remains of both Eucharistic species – causing an overwheling dilution of a hydo-alcoholic solution and leaving the door wide open for hydrolysis to take place.Other catalysts for change are heat, light, air… Furthermore these holy Remains are either consumed- where the physical properties will be subject to a host of enzymes, or poured into the soil- where countless bacteria will continue to break down its composition. So change at the microscopic level is a type of herald of change on the level of physical appearances in the “common estimation”. The Church, as I heard it put “…errs on the side of caution.”

Anyone brave enough to indulge in further mental gymnastics on this subject might find some stimulating commentary on a thread located here: jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/10/when_the_real_p.html
…by the time I’d finished reading it I could see smoke coming out of my ears!