What happens when theres no purgatory?

[Martin_Le_Fay]

I got a question. I hope this is the right place for it.

The church teaches that after you die you get something called a particular judgment and then go to heaven hell or purgatory. Then the church says that theres a last judgment where everyone knows about it and after that you can only go to heaven or hell but not purgatory. The church also says that there are gonna be some people still alive when the last judgment happens.

My question is, if purgatory was put there to help people who only had a little sin to get better before going to heaven, what happens to the same kind of people who are still alive at the last judgment? They can’t have a particular judgment cuz there still alive. They can’t go to heaven cuz they still got sin on their souls. They can’t go to purgatory because its the last judgment and there is no purgatory anymore. The only place left to go is hell.

Doesn’t this mean that people with even just venial sins will go to hell forever because they don’t have the purgatory that other people with the same sins had? Or is the church wrong about there being anybody left alive at the last judgment? Or do some people get allowed into heaven even though they have a little sin left over?

I mean, I guess somethings wrong somewhere cuz it seems like the rules are different for some people.

 

[mark_a]

I got a question. I hope this is the right place for it.

The church teaches that after you die you get something called a particular judgment and then go to heaven hell or purgatory. Then the church says that theres a last judgment where everyone knows about it and after that you can only go to heaven or hell but not purgatory. The church also says that there are gonna be some people still alive when the last judgment happens.

My question is, if purgatory was put there to help people who only had a little sin to get better before going to heaven, what happens to the same kind of people who are still alive at the last judgment? They can’t have a particular judgment cuz there still alive. They can’t go to heaven cuz they still got sin on their souls. They can’t go to purgatory because its the last judgment and there is no purgatory anymore. The only place left to go is hell.

Doesn’t this mean that people with even just venial sins will go to hell forever because they don’t have the purgatory that other people with the same sins had? Or is the church wrong about there being anybody left alive at the last judgment? Or do some people get allowed into heaven even though they have a little sin left over?

I mean, I guess somethings wrong somewhere cuz it seems like the rules are different for some people.

I herad Jimmy Akin tackle this question by, in the end, saying “I don’t know”.

My question is, if purgatory was put there to help people who only had a little sin to get better before going to heaven

Here’s something that needs to be cleared up though. Purgatory is for purging our love of sin, not for purging sin.

I mean, I guess somethings wrong somewhere cuz it seems like the rules are different for some people.

Don’t worry. God will work it out.

 

[Martin_Le_Fay]

If purgatory doesn’t purify us of our sin, does that mean that people can enter heaven stained with venial sin since you don’t have to confess it and purgatory won’t clean it?

 

[Belloc_Fan]

If purgatory doesn’t purify us of our sin, does that mean that people can enter heaven stained with venial sin since you don’t have to confess it and purgatory won’t clean it?

No. But St. Thomas Aquinas proposed the perhaps most obvious solution, which is that the final tribulation serves as a purgation. No matter what, sin cannot be in the presence of God.

 

[Martin_Le_Fay]

Where is the Jimmy Akin thing where he talks about this?

 

[stuart12]

No. But St. Thomas Aquinas proposed the perhaps most obvious solution, which is that the final tribulation serves as a purgation. No matter what, sin cannot be in the presence of God.

That’s what I have heard and read as well. The end when the Son of Man comes will be awful (in both senses of the word).

 

[Lancer]

Martin Le Fay what happens when theres no purgatory?

The** church teaches** that after you die you get something called a particular judgment and then** go to heaven hell or purgatory**. Then the ** church says that theres a last judgment** where everyone knows about it and after that you can only go to heaven or hell but not purgatory. The** church also says** that there are gonna be some people still alive when the last judgment happens.

You are mixing “apples and oranges” so to speak and using (what seems to be) “second-hand…or…hear-say type info”…to say that “…the Catholic Church says…”…when the Catholic Church…is quite clear. Below (in para quotes) is exactly*** "…what the Church says…in the Catechism of Catholic Church(CCC).****You say: “…go to heaven hell or purgatory…” ***To be precise…its one of two particular destinations…not three…(it is the certainty of one or two places…forever and ever…that is the “particular judgment”…not any transitory stages of being or place)…

The Catholic Chruch says…1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ:either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594or** immediately**,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

AND…you say** "…church says that theres a last judgment** where everyone knows about it and after that you can only go to heaven or hell but not purgatory. The** church also says***be some people still alive when the last judgment happens.**…" *
No…before the final judgment there is a purifying fire…

** The Catholic Church says****…
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that,** before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire**.He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that** certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come**. 608 (St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; …cf. Mt 12:31).

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I may have missed the mark…but I hope this is at least…somewhat helpful.
Pax Christi

 

[Martin_Le_Fay]

I think your saying a lot of the same thing I’m saying. You die, there’s a particular judgement and you get:

1. 
   *]Blessedness of heaven through purification
   
   *]or immediately
   
   *]or immediate and everlasting damnation.
   
   I think even Big Bird counts three things there.
   
   Then we got a final judgment, after a purifying fire which I guess is purgatory. So, I think we agree so far. It’s just that you get to that purifying fire by dying first.
   
   Then, when the final judgment comes, the whole purifying fire thing is in the past. Those people who are still alive at the final judgment can’t have gone through the purifying fire because they didn’t die. That means that the things that fire would have cleaned up are still there. But now, there are only two destinations, heaven and hell, like you said.
   
   So, if there is someone who survives until the final judgment, then he can’t go through the purifying fire. Unless, you are saying that no one will survive until the final judgment.

 

[wjp984]

Isn’t the End Times supposed to be a time when things are bad and we can either 1) follow the devil who promises immediate relief and a return to sinful material desires which people are accustomed to and enjoy. Or, we can do the obvious yet not so easy choice of 2) Trusting in God and going through whatever sufferings are necessary to be with Him. I’m sure that is purification enough by choosing option number 2. I don’t think we are allowed to believe in a rapture but perhaps, for those individuals who don’t need purification, there is some sort of rapture for all I know.

 

[Martin_Le_Fay]

Isn’t the End Times supposed to be a time when things are bad and we can either 1) follow the devil who promises immediate relief and a return to sinful material desires which people are accustomed to and enjoy. Or, we can do the obvious yet not so easy choice of 2) Trusting in God and going through whatever sufferings are necessary to be with Him. I’m sure that is purification enough by choosing option number 2. I don’t think we are allowed to believe in a rapture but perhaps, for those individuals who don’t need purification, there is some sort of rapture for all I know.

I think that happens every day. Not just in the end times.

 

[DavidKays]

Martin, your question is interesting. Please allow me to give some answers to your perplexing questions. First of all the purgatory state is only a transitory state which means you will only be there temporary. Anyone still left in purgatory at the Second Coming Jesus will be grant all their releases. Anyone left on earth at the Second Coming will have to face the Judgement of God. So if you are in a state of Hell while living on earth during the Second Coming will have to face the consequences of permament Hell. But if you are not in a state of Hell at the Second Coming then you will receive Heaven. No purgatory is necessary at the Second Coming because Jesus is fully present and will grant you all the necessary graces for you to enter Heaven. But for the time being till the Second Coming the Justice of God will permit Purgatory. Purgatory is necessary since nothing and I mean nothing unclean can enter Heaven which will be the whole presence of the Almighty. So anything unclean in you must be delt with. The way God helps you is through the prayers and sacrifices of those praying for you both in Heaven and on Earth with the greatest benefit coming from those praying for you on Earth. So it is good to make alot of friends before you die so that when your time comes you will receive benefit from those who knew you. Let me tell you about the Divine Mercy message given to St.Maria Faustina. When you pray the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy daily and practice the Divine Mercy devotions you will definitely shorten and even eliminate your Purgatory. There is a promise from Jesus that anyone who receives Him in Holy Communion and has celebrated Holy Confession on Divine Mercy Sunday ( which is the Sunday after Easter ) will have their Purgatory time eliminated. So if you died right suddenly on Divine Mercy Sunday you will go right to Heaven bypassing Purgatory. Praying the Chaplet daily will also shorten your purgatory time so it is good to put into practice these Divine Mercy devotions. I am Greek Orthodox who prays daily the Chaplet and puts into practice the Divine Mercy devotions our Lord gave to St.Maria Faustina. Why does a Greek Orthodox pray alot of chaplets that is considered more a Catholic devotion? Let me explain that Jesus made up all the prayers of the Chaplet except for one prayer, the last prayer. Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One is not one that He devised. That prayer comes from the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Church. We Orthodox are so familiar with that prayer that it becomes like a heartbeat to us. It is interesting Our Lord took a prayer that is basically Eastern and Orthodox as if He is inviting us too to practice these devotions. The Divine Mercy devotions will unite the Church. And Orthodox like Catholics do pray alot for the departed so we too can help those in Purgatory. God Bless! and keep praying!

 

[Gertabelle]

What makes you think there can’t be a purifying fire without dying first? Just exactly what do you think will be happening to those going directly to heaven or hell at the last judgment? “Come into my kingdom, oh blessed of my Father, with your acne, arthritis, and bad breath!” Probably not.

So there will necessarily be all sorts of physical transformations taking place in that moment. And in that moment of judgment and transformation, could not God also realize, in a moment, the perfect purification of souls that are imperfect? What sort of agony would it cause you to undergo a complete and perfect transformation to the mind of God? – and in an instant!!!

Seems to me you’re making this waaaay more difficult than it is.

Gertie

 

[Martin_Le_Fay]

What makes you think there can’t be a purifying fire without dying first? Just exactly what do you think will be happening to those going directly to heaven or hell at the last judgment? “Come into my kingdom, oh blessed of my Father, with your acne, arthritis, and bad breath!” Probably not.

So there will necessarily be all sorts of physical transformations taking place in that moment. And in that moment of judgment and transformation, could not God also realize, in a moment, the perfect purification of souls that are imperfect? What sort of agony would it cause you to undergo a complete and perfect transformation to the mind of God? – and in an instant!!!

Seems to me you’re making this waaaay more difficult than it is.

Gertie

But that’s the question I’m asking. I don’t think that God’s gonna welcome into heaven acne, arthritis and bad breath. That’s the problem. I’m thinking that the purifying fire must come after death because it is one of the possible consequences of a particular judgment, which always comes after death. Unless you are saying that for some people death doesn’t mark the end of the possibility of merit or demerit but that it happens sometime before.

 

[DavidKays]

Gertabelle I do not think you understand well my statements so bear with me as I will try to put more clarification to my own words. First of all when Jesus comes at the Second Coming He will resurrect everyone both those living on Earth and those who have fallen asleep. So at the Second Coming all of creation will be raised. The General Resurrection has arrived so that everyone will receive a Resurrected body. So there will be no deformities whatso ever on your body. However there may be deformities in your soul. When God resurrects the Body your soul may or not be in a state of Hell. If your soul is in a state of Hell at the Second Coming then unfortunately you will be sent there. Deformities on your body is changed at the Resurrection which occurs immediately at the Second Coming. But it makes sense that your soul if it is in a state of Hell it cannot change immediately after you die or unfortunately when Jesus decides to come and because of the Second Coming you will not be given a chance to repent with your newly resurrected state. All what the Second Coming does is give to you what you already have. There is no judgement at that time for those who already have died. The only judgement will be for those who are already living on earth at the precise time of His Coming. This judgement will only be for those who are already in a state of Hell. The Second Coming will be a awlful day because the people on Earth still living will have to face the prospect of Eternal Hell because it was those people who force Our Lord to decide to come. God does not want to come. He only will come when He is forced to because at that time of His Second Coming He cannot save the world as He is saving it now, through His Grace and Mercy. God Bless!

 

[DavidKays]

Dear Martin the purifying fire occurs during your whole life. Even now we are going through a purification. Purgatory is for life not only after you die. The Saints did not need Purgatory after they died because they experienced their purification while living on earth. Some people can arrive at that state while they are living on earth that is the state of Heaven. However most of us need purification after we die so God continues the purification process even there so that we can become His Saints. The problem is after you die when you enter purgatory you cannot get to heaven on your own. You need people praying for you especially those on earth so as to help God to grant you the necessary graces for your final purification. The Saints did a better job than us that is why they have entered heaven. The Saints accomplished their Purgatory while living on Earth. We should thank God that He continues this purgatory process even after we die. God Bless!