What has caused confession to take a back seat?

[Memaw]

I grew up post Vatican 2 also and the only pope I remembered & knew about for so long was Pope John Paul II. I do not recall being told when I went for my 1st Confession years ago that you had to do it at least 1 time a year (chalk it up to bad catechesis in the 80’s/90’s & it not being emphasized) and it was the era of the communal services without a chance for private confession during Lent & Advent which many considered good enough.

I see more people in lines before TLMs compared to the OF to go to confession (and the priest at the TLM I went to even mentioned before his homily during the announcements that he would be available for Confessions after Mass, I did see about 10 people line up after Mass, I would say about 10 to 15 people went before Mass - myself included). I do notice that most TLMs, the homilies are not afraid to mention sin and stuff compared to many OF Mass homilies. Confession and sin tend to get mentioned a lot more during Lent & sometimes Advent in homilies when I do not go to a TLM.

I have no idea what TLM or OF means, could you explain? Even at communal penance services we are required to go to private Confession. General Absolution is NOT allowed. God Bless, Memaw

 

[CuriousMike]

I have no idea what TLM or OF means, could you explain? Even at communal penance services we are required to go to private Confession. General Absolution is NOT allowed. God Bless, Memaw

TLM: Extraordinary Form/Tridentine Mass. I always see it as “The Latin Mass”
OF: Ordinary Form - spoken in your local tongue

I think what was being referenced were the Eucharistic Services (i.e. Communion Services), which may or may not exist by virtue of necessity, being offered INSTEAD of the Mass. All Masses do offer Communion, and could be called a Communion service.

However, in these services, the laity cannot preach (Our Parish uses a book with pre-formed discussion suited to that Sunday). So you may be left with the word of God, but no message that can be interpolated from it.
People have the “general” absolution of sins after the Penitential Act, and the Eucharist itself does allow for the forgiveness of sins (as common prayers said by the Priests suggest).

 

[ProVobis]

People have the “general” absolution of sins after the Penitential Act, and the Eucharist itself does allow for the forgiveness of sins (as common prayers said by the Priests suggest).

Actually a perfect Act of Contrition with the INTENT of going to confession can forgive mortal sin but neither this or the Penitential Act can substitute for SACRAMENTAL confession, which is required for proper disposition toward receiving communion.

 

[808Catholic]

Actually a perfect Act of Contrition with the INTENT of going to confession can forgive mortal sin but neither this or the Penitential Act can substitute for SACRAMENTAL confession, which is required for proper disposition toward receiving communion.

True. This is similar to a person confessing his sins, hearing the prayer of absolution from the priest, but never completing his penance. All must be done to receive the full grace of reconciliation.

 

[otjm]

We had a priest ones about 30 years ago that had the girls all reveal their sins, (called faults), to each other. He was strongly reprimanded by the bishop. Don’t know what happened to him after that. That was breaking the seal of Confession. God Bless, Memaw

No that was not breaking the seal. There was no confession when the girls told each other their faults - or their sins. So there was no seal to break.

Stupid? absolutely. Seal? None.

Overhearing someone else’s confession is not breaking the seal of confession; however, if you do overhear, then you are bound to not repeat it to anyone else.

The seal of concession is only broken when one, who has heard (or overheard) a confession, tells it to someone else.

 

[AttendeDomine]

True. This is similar to a person confessing his sins, hearing the prayer of absolution from the priest, but never completing his penance. All must be done to receive the full grace of reconciliation.

As Fr. Z points out:

People need to understand that the validity of the absolution and the efficacy of the sacrament do not depend on whether you do your assigned penance.

Now, I’m in no way arguing against doing penance, or for treating it lightheartedly as if it’s of little importance. But I think it’s important to observe, as Fr. Z does, that:

Priests … should make clear to people what the requirements are for the sacrament of penance to be efficacious, so that they are not left in doubt or, by falling into error, run the risk of becoming discouraged or overly scrupulous.

 

[808Catholic]

As Fr. Z points out:

Now, I’m in no way arguing against doing penance, or for treating it lightheartedly as if it’s of little importance. But I think it’s important to observe, as Fr. Z does, that:

I scanned the article provided via the link and am a bit puzzled. If, as Fr. Z points out, penitents are not REQUIRED to complete the penance prescribed by the priest, why even bother giving them out? Do you think this is sort of a “nice” thing to do? It seems to put our Protestant brothers’ and sisters’ point of view one step closer to the Catholic point of view. Perhaps, we don’t need to confess our sins to a priest at all; perhaps we should just confess them directly to God Who will forgive them and all will be shiny!

I’m not sure of the context of why Fr. Z would take a position then voice it in a blog. For now, I’m staying the course and doing my penance out of love for God. Thanks for the different point of view, though.

 

[808Catholic]

As Fr. Z points out:

Now, I’m in no way arguing against doing penance, or for treating it lightheartedly as if it’s of little importance. But I think it’s important to observe, as Fr. Z does, that:

I had to Google to find out who is Fr. Z. Here’s just one site:

novusordowatch.org/wire/sad-case-zuhlsdorf.htm

An excerpt from that site: "After spending some time on his site, one cannot help but conclude that the “priesthood” is merely a hobby for Zuhlsdorf, a gimmick, and that his real job is maintaining his blog business, which must be going rather well (Z himself has stated he gets about 20,000 hits a day). Just a look at the number of recent monthly donors listed in the right margin of his home page indicates a solid foundation for moolah. Add to that the non-recurring, spontaneous donations he receives (and begs for), the donations for his travels, the “Z Swag” junk he constantly pushes, the numerous items he advertises through Amazon, his conspicuously-placed Amazon wishlist from which people buy him gifts, the Mystic Monk coffee he compulsively promotes, and so forth. And presumably his own bishop supports him too, which he is obliged to do by canon law, unless perhaps there are some exceptional circumstances here; Mr. Zuhlsdorf is always welcome to clarify."

Far be it from me or any Catholic to criticize the clergy but I am shocked by his opinion we do not NEED to do penance in order to be absolved.

 

[Usige]

I scanned the article provided via the link and am a bit puzzled. If, as Fr. Z points out, penitents are not REQUIRED to complete the penance prescribed by the priest, why even bother giving them out? Do you think this is sort of a “nice” thing to do? It seems to put our Protestant brothers’ and sisters’ point of view one step closer to the Catholic point of view. Perhaps, we don’t need to confess our sins to a priest at all; perhaps we should just confess them directly to God Who will forgive them and all will be shiny!

I’m not sure of the context of why Fr. Z would take a position then voice it in a blog. For now, I’m staying the course and doing my penance out of love for God. Thanks for the different point of view, though.

Far be it from me or any Catholic to criticize the clergy but I am shocked by his opinion we do not NEED to do penance in order to be absolved.

Actually, Father Z is right. Absolution cannot be given conditionally. A priest cannot say “I absolve you on the condition that you promise to admit your affair to your husband.” Since penance is done after the absolution it cannot retroactively invalidate absolution already given. It can be argued that intent to not do penance shows a lack of contrition which does invalidate absolution, but that gets to intent at the time of absolution and has nothing to do with whether one actually followed through with it.

If you don’t like Father Z, then here is one of CAF’s resident priests saying that penance is not required for absolution.

 

[808Catholic]

Actually, Father Z is right. Absolution cannot be given conditionally. A priest cannot say “I absolve you on the condition that you promise to admit your affair to your husband.” Since penance is done after the absolution it cannot retroactively invalidate absolution already given. It can be argued that intent to not do penance shows a lack of contrition which does invalidate absolution, but that gets to intent at the time of absolution and has nothing to do with whether one actually followed through with it.

If you don’t like Father Z, then here is one of CAF’s resident priests saying that penance is not required for absolution.

However, Fr. Vincent Serpa did say “Just pray the decade and put it put of your mind.”

 

[ProVobis]

Didn’t Fr. Sarducci (not really a priest but a comedian) say something about Catholics “weaseling and maneuvering” their way in confession?

 

[808Catholic]

Didn’t Fr. Sarducci (not really a priest but a comedian) say something about Catholics “weaseling and maneuvering” their way in confession?

I love that character from the old SNL!

 

[Joe_5859]

I had to Google to find out who is Fr. Z. Here’s just one site:

novusordowatch.org/wire/sad-case-zuhlsdorf.htm

An excerpt from that site: "After spending some time on his site, one cannot help but conclude that the “priesthood” is merely a hobby for Zuhlsdorf, a gimmick, and that his real job is maintaining his blog business, which must be going rather well (Z himself has stated he gets about 20,000 hits a day). Just a look at the number of recent monthly donors listed in the right margin of his home page indicates a solid foundation for moolah. Add to that the non-recurring, spontaneous donations he receives (and begs for), the donations for his travels, the “Z Swag” junk he constantly pushes, the numerous items he advertises through Amazon, his conspicuously-placed Amazon wishlist from which people buy him gifts, the Mystic Monk coffee he compulsively promotes, and so forth. And presumably his own bishop supports him too, which he is obliged to do by canon law, unless perhaps there are some exceptional circumstances here; Mr. Zuhlsdorf is always welcome to clarify."

Far be it from me or any Catholic to criticize the clergy but I am shocked by his opinion we do not NEED to do penance in order to be absolved.

I wouldn’t trust novusordowatch to paint an accurate picture. The idea that anyone is rolling in the dough by being a Catholic blogger is a bit farfetched to me.

Here is Fr. Z’s backstory in his own words: wdtprs.com/blog/2011/08/waiting-for-zagano/

He is right, though. Our absolution is not contingent on performing our assigned penance. That doesn’t mean we just shirk it off. Far from it. But to make our forgiveness contingent on doing some proscribed penance would turn it into us working for forgiveness rather than accepting it as a free gift of grace. That would change the meaning of the sacrament.

 

[808Catholic]

I wouldn’t trust novusordowatch to paint an accurate picture. The idea that anyone is rolling in the dough by being a Catholic blogger is a bit farfetched to me.

Here is Fr. Z’s backstory in his own words: wdtprs.com/blog/2011/08/waiting-for-zagano/

He is right, though. Our absolution is not contingent on performing our assigned penance. That doesn’t mean we just shirk it off. Far from it. But to make our forgiveness contingent on doing some proscribed penance would turn it into us working for forgiveness rather than accepting it as a free gift of grace. That would change the meaning of the sacrament.

Out of respect for your knowledge, I’ll speak with the priest about this. I may be missing something that’s not being presented in any of the material I’ve researched. Thank you.

 

[Joe_5859]

Out of respect for your knowledge, I’ll speak with the priest about this. I may be missing something that’s not being presented in any of the material I’ve researched. Thank you.

And I’ll just reiterate that none of this is to say that the penance is unimportant. We want to do our penances. I would even go so far as to say it is a sin to deliberately not do our penance.

But it’s also important to be clear about what makes the sacraments work. A Mass can filled with abuses, yet still be valid because the essential elements were celebrated correctly. And what makes the Sacrament of Reconciliation work are the words of absolution said by the priest.

 

[808Catholic]

And I’ll just reiterate that none of this is to say that the penance is unimportant. We want to do our penances. I would even go so far as to say it is a sin to deliberately not do our penance.

But it’s also important to be clear about what makes the sacraments work. A Mass can filled with abuses, yet still be valid because the essential elements were celebrated correctly. And what makes the Sacrament of Reconciliation work are the words of absolution said by the priest.

What you’re saying about abuses in the Mass and “essential elements” does not jive with what you’ve said about penance and absolution. I’m not trying to play semantics here; I’m genuinely confused so I will ask my priest tonight before or after our Bible study for his clarification.

 

[jmcrae]

What you’re saying about abuses in the Mass and “essential elements” does not jive with what you’ve said about penance and absolution. I’m not trying to play semantics here; I’m genuinely confused so I will ask my priest tonight before or after our Bible study for his clarification.

If you genuinely forget to do your penance (when you came out of Confession the Church was on fire and you were so busy calling 9-1-1 and getting people out of the building that your three Hail Marys completely slipped your mind) or if your penance was a little vague (be nice to your Mom) and you’re not sure whether you completed it, your Absolution doesn’t become void.

But if you totally blow it off and refuse to do it, that’s at least a genial sin of disobedience but it again doesn’t void the Absolution you received for the sins you already confessed- this is a new sin and can be confessed by itself without having to redo your whole previous Confession. Or, you could just do the penance after the fact, since if you’re sorry that you blew it off, then you might as well just do it.

 

[Joe_5859]

What you’re saying about abuses in the Mass and “essential elements” does not jive with what you’ve said about penance and absolution. I’m not trying to play semantics here; I’m genuinely confused so I will ask my priest tonight before or after our Bible study for his clarification.

I’m sorry for adding confusion instead of clarity.

I was just trying to make an analogy. If I went to a Mass and the priest stepped aside to let a random lay person give the homily, that would be a liturgical abuse. But—so long as he said the words of consecration correctly—the Mass would still be valid and the Eucharist would still really be the Body and Blood of Christ.

It’s important to point that out, because some people may experience anxiety that they did not actually receive Jesus in the Eucharist because of the liturgical abuse. But pointing out that the abuse does not invalidate the Mass does not imply endorsement of the abuse. I wouldn’t go around saying that the abuse is okay or “no big deal” simply because it wasn’t so bad as to invalidate the sacrament.

Penance and Confession could be viewed similarly. Not doing our penance does not invalidate the sacrament. But pointing that out doesn’t mean I think shirking our penance is okay to do.

When I said that it could still be sinful, that still wouldn’t invalidate the absolution we received. It would just be something we’d have to confess next time.

Does that clarify things?

 

[Joe_5859]

If you genuinely forget to do your penance (when you came out of Confession the Church was on fire and you were so busy calling 9-1-1 and getting people out of the building that your three Hail Marys completely slipped your mind) or if your penance was a little vague (be nice to your Mom) and you’re not sure whether you completed it, your Absolution doesn’t become void.

But if you totally blow it off and refuse to do it, that’s at least a genial sin of disobedience but it again doesn’t void the Absolution you received for the sins you already confessed- this is a new sin and can be confessed by itself without having to redo your whole previous Confession. Or, you could just do the penance after the fact, since if you’re sorry that you blew it off, then you might as well just do it.

I missed that you already explained what I was getting at. Thanks.

 

[808Catholic]

If you genuinely forget to do your penance (when you came out of Confession the Church was on fire and you were so busy calling 9-1-1 and getting people out of the building that your three Hail Marys completely slipped your mind) or if your penance was a little vague (be nice to your Mom) and you’re not sure whether you completed it, your Absolution doesn’t become void.

But if you totally blow it off and refuse to do it, that’s at least a genial sin of disobedience but it again doesn’t void the Absolution you received for the sins you already confessed- this is a new sin and can be confessed by itself without having to redo your whole previous Confession. Or, you could just do the penance after the fact, since if you’re sorry that you blew it off, then you might as well just do it.

Thank you for expanding on the conversation. Yes, I understand forgetting to complete your penance falls under a sort of venial sin; we should know better but we’re human. Dismissing penance, on the other hand, seems to be willfully ignoring a priest’s instruction on a sacramental issue. If we temporarily forget to complete the penance and remember afterward, yes, we should complete the penance. So, we’re all in agreement we should go to confession to receive absolution. What I have difficulty, despite everyone’s comments to the contrary, is the acceptance that absolution is complete without the penance; that our penance is a “nice to do” act but not needed for this Sacrament.

I don’t want one of the CAF priest posting on my specific issue because that will just close down the entire thread and there is great discussion going on and, I suspect, will continue. But, if one of the CAF staff were to ask one of the CAF priests and pass it along as “I talked to Fr…”, I’d be more than willing to accept it.

Thank you all for trying to clarify this issue for me. God Bless you all.