What has happened to Marriage?

[a_cermak]

So it sounds to me like the root of your complaint isn’t the laws, but his stubbornness?

I like the way the laws and institutions work. They are geared toward individuals, because you do not cease to be an individual (with individual rights and liberties) when you marry.

My partner and I keep our money separate. We split our bills down the middle and have each made decisions about retirement savings, investments, and purchases separately. We have a common savings account we keep for emergencies and each contribute a set amount into that. To use that money requires consultation and obviously any purchases requiring the contribution or cooperation of the other partner is collaborative. Now, we are both rational adults and so can make this arrangement work. Plus we earn roughly the same amount. It’s also understood that once the baby arrives, this arrangement may need tweaking.

 

[dulcissima]

In thinking about all of your posts over the past few months, I think the advice that stands out as the best to me is this post from kage_ar on Nov 3rd (sorry I don’t know how to pull a quote from one thread over to another, so this is cut & paste):

"If you were my sister or my best friend, here is the way I’d draw it out.

If he is not putting you in physical danger, there is a cholice to make (if you are in physical danger, you should just go…)

You have a decision to make, do you want to be married to this man or not. If your true answer in your heart is yes, then, it is time to love him.

In other posts, you have stated that he is not Catholic, and does not really practice any form of Christianity. So, you have married a non-practicing Christian. There are non-Catholic Christians who do not believe that pornography or masturbation are sins – they will teach in marriage classes that erotic movies are acceptable ways to “spice up” a marriage, there are some who teach that self-gratification is a good way to KEEP from sinning. This really is a message in some parts of the “Christian” community, and you cannot expect someone to un-learn that overnight. Now, if your husband is not even a practicing Christian, he most likely does not see these things as sinful.

Take a deep breath and realize that you walked into his house, saw the “porn” and freaked out on him (from his perspective) for something that is just a normal thing. So – my advice for the time being – stop talking about it. Just be blind to the fact that it is in the house for now. Let GOD do the changing of his heart. You may need to take another vacation or stay with someone for a couple of weeks to get yourself ready, but, do it.

Second, don’t beat him over the head with the fact that you saved yourself for marriage and he did not. What you did was a good pure noble thing, but, it we are not supposed to use good pure noble things as weapons – if you use a priceless gold and jeweled candle stick to bash someone up side of the head, it not only injures the person, bit damages the beautiful candlestick.

So, starting today be nice to him. Be friendly, be kind. If you stay at home, fix nice meals or suggest going out to a nice restaurant and a play. Date him again, do not respond to evil with evil, but respond to evil with good. Be the best example of Christian love you can be. Remember, Jesus hung on a cross and died for your husband. I’m NOT saying that you should jump right into the bedroom – you both need to work back to that place – but, you can be nice and kind and fun WITHOUT having sex (you did it when you were dating, remember?). Go to the gym with him. Ask him to go to church with you, and if he says no – smile your sweetest smile and say “okay, I’ll see you at 2” – and on the way back from Church, maybe stop and pick up a nice pastry or other goodie – tell him with your actions that going to Church puts you in a sunny frame of mind.

Pray for him every day, and that does not mean getting on your knees and shaking your rosary in his face, just between you and God and have the Saints join you. When you are vacuuming the floor, offer it up for your marriage. When you are washing dishes, offer it up for your marriage. When you are gritting your teeth when he says crude things, offer it up for your marriage. Pray for his conversion, you can be the best advertisement for the Faith by letting the love shine from you.

If he will not go to a councilor together, then you go alone – and keep asking him to join you (not nagging) – let him see the positive impact it makes on you.

This will be a hard cross, and if you feel you do not want to stay married to him –

So, in your heart you cannot stay married to this man. Then what is the very worst thing that can happen? You divorce him and apply to the marriage tribunal for a review of the validity of the marriage. They make their investigation; see that the marriage was valid. You then live your life civilly divorced, and are not free to marry. You go to school, or to work, you commit yourself to the Church – and continue mission work – you find your vocation, and you go on with your life. That is the worst thing that could happen.

Perhaps an annulment would be granted – cross that bridge when you get there, but, if you leave – know it your mind that a life where you are validly but not civilly married may be your cross to bear, and then bear it.

Right now, you are miserable. There is a fork in the road, take one of them. Stay in or get out. You need, with the help of the prayers of the Saints, your family and your friends, and the grace of the sacraments – to make a decision and stick to it. Inaction will just serve to make the situation go from bad to worse.

Prayers for you!"

 

[Cupofkindness]

Then the real issue is that Seminole Girl is no longer first in her husband’s heart, he’s unfaithful, she’s demanding change, and not only is he refusing to change, but he’s responding vengefully as well, retaliating with intentional acts of hurt. Stay strong, SG, you are doing the right thing to question his treatment of you. But you are absolutely powerless over effecting any change in him. In fact, so is he. He must will a change through some sort of conversion experience or hit rock bottom. These are the facts that you need to deal with.

 

[BillP]

SeminoleGirl22:

I will not give in on the Pornography issue. Period. That is the main sticking point.

Well there you go. This is exactly what I’m talking about. You’re issuing an ultimatum. He’s ignoring you. Why don’t you find out WHY he’s using the porn? Have you ever sat down and had a conversation (note I said “conversation” that means BOTH of you get to talk!) about the porn and about how it makes you feel? What was his response?

By the way, nobody thinks you should “give in” on the pornagraphy issue. But if you’re really interested in solving the problem, ask youself, “how is what I’m doing working so far?”

"He figures I am being unreasonable, and decides he will just do what he wants and I can go fly a kite. "

And you figure that you’re “right” and he either conforms to your wishes or else. And from what I’ve seen when you’ve not gotten results by withholding sex, you’ve escalated the situation by taking other steps such as locking him out of you’alls house and trying to cancel his credit cards, trying to get his TV taken back etc.

SeminoleGirl22:

I have tried and tried and tried talking to him.

Talking with him might yield better results.

SeminoleGirl22:

He just can’t understand that I view him looking at porn as cheating on me. Then naturally he can’t understand why I am not wanting to have relations with him because I feel he is cheating.

Here again, you’re making the way you feel is the only thing that matters. What about how he feels? Look, he married you. You knew he wasn’t religious when you guys got together. He respected YOUR religion. He was willing to wait for you even though pre-marital sex wasn’t an important moral issue for him. He obviously still loves you, after all, look at alll the stuff he’s put up with since you all were married. Like I said, if you were my wife you’d have been out in the thoroughfare.

Bottom line is this. I can’t believe that a guy who would tolerate all that he’s been through over the past six months doesn’t love you and doesn’t want to make you happy. You just need to give him a chance. Be generous. Swallow your pride. Take responsibility for your current situation. Tell him you’re sorry for where things are and that there won’t be anymore ultimatums. Tell him you love him unconditionally no matter what he does. Tell him that the porn breaks your heart because it makes you feel (cheated on, inadequate, unattractive, whatever). Tell him you want to have sex with him. I will be shocked if he doesn’t respond to this. And if he doesn’t, at least you will have the satisfaction of KNOWING that you did everything you could possibly do before calling it quits.

I’ll keeep both of you in my prayers.

 

[1ke]

dulcissima:

I don’t think I would recommend separation for you, because you would just face these same problems in any marraige you entered into.

I disagree. A person is not likely to run into a problem of pornography addiction, sexual manipulation, and emotional abuse in a marriage with a practicing, committed Catholic of either sex. My husband and I discussed in detail all of our “must have” and “deal breakers” before we committed to moving forward in a dating relationship. He and I have a shared vision of marriage. We have a shared faith. We practice the same faith to the same degree.

If I had married him only to find out that all of our discussion had been a lie (and that he had no intention of changing) you bet I’d get out and seek annulment.

I think the heart of the matter is that Seminole married a non-Catholic who deceived her into believings he shared her values and view of marriage. He has clearly shown his true colors from day one. I think it was unwise of her to marry outside the faith in the first place, but she did so on the basis that this man shared her moral values. A pile of porn in the basement says it all.

dulcissima:

You and your husband really need to grow up.

Not all actions taken under extreme duress are logical, and some come with regret. I think that I would have probably reacted quite strongly if I’d uncovered a porn stash only days after my wedding as well. Could it have been handled better? Probably. But, it is what it is. At this point, yes, she can only try to mend the relationship or get out. However, her husband is not willing to work on the relationship.

dulcissima:

You both need counseling, especially in the area of communication. You guys need to treat eachother tenderly and with love, or this or any other marriage you enter into will never work. You are still early enough, that you can make it work. It will take a lot of effort, but it will be worth it.

Seems like only one person wants to Tango here-- Seminole indicates she is willing to go to counseling and porno-boy is not. He also sees nothing wrong with his behavior. I think that the die is cast and she really should just get out.

I went to read old postings, I did not know the history before my initial answer on this post. After reading the posts, I think she needs individual counseling and a lawyer.

 

[punisherthunder]

SeminoleGirl-

I actually went back and looked at all of your previous posts on this and trouble with your husband, etc. I don’t mean to sound rude or out of place, but did he ever show any sign of being like this or being addicted to porn before you go married?

 

[Karin]

1ke:

she has stated that her husband gives her no access to the finances nor will he cover her medically through his insurance, etc. This is serious and it is indefensible on his part.

Actually the example of not being covered by health insurance is what some woman face (as per the State Rep.)…I do not think this was the case to the OP. The only issue the OP faces is not being on the credit card, cable etc. bills.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoever said it was way too early to talk about leaving was on the mark.

He’s not exhibiting behavior that could reasonably put your life, limb, or psychological well-being in danger. In other words, you are not living in harm’s way. It is by no means demonstrated that he is not capable of a legitimate or even an outstanding marital relationship with you. Until you’ve tried and tried to resolve this with him, at least having gotten professonal and pastoral guidance yourself, quitting the marriage is premature. Unless you have good reason to believe that he is going to ruin both his credit rating and yours, legal separation is premature. (If you do, your future life together might benefit from your having at least protected your own credit.)

You have legitimate concerns, though. I’m not taking sides, just saying that if this is your take on it, your perceptions need to be addressed.

If you have tried to talk with him unsuccessfully, get yourself some pastoral counselling, get the professional help your pastor or spiritual director suggests, and keep trying.

There are marriages where there is mutual agreement that spending $4000 without consulting one’s spouse is acceptable. Yours isn’t one of them, simply because it is not acceptable to you. That doesn’t make unilaterally cancelling orders acceptable, either. I feel safe in thinking that is not acceptable to him.

You guys need to open the lines of communication and work these things out… not to fit someone else’s idea of marriage, but to reconcile yours with his in a way that forges one life. It may never be something you’re both 100% happy with. In fact, it probably won’t be, because both of you are going to fall short… not just short of objective perfection, but short of compliance with your partner’s imagination of what perfection is. These will most assuredly be two quite different things. The only way, then, to be happy is to do your best, expect him to do his best, and then be grateful for and determined to endure whatever that best is, even when it is far, far short of your idea perfect.

Annulment is for marriages in which it has been demonstrated that one or both partners is incapable of fulfilling the covenant. My impression is that your marriage is valid until you go to the trouble of proving otherwise. (Obviously, demonstration that continued trying is likely to be hazardous to one’s life or health would meet that proof.) You may find, when you’ve tried and tried, that what you’re trying to do is truly impossible.

Good luck and God be with you both. I hope it never comes to that.

 

[1ke]

Karin:

Actually the example of not being covered by health insurance is what some woman face (as per the State Rep.)…I do not think this was the case to the OP. The only issue the OP faces is not being on the credit card, cable etc. bills.

Yes, she does state later that she has coverage. It is implied, however, that he has very good benefits while hers are not as good. When DH and I married we reviewed all options and chose the best for both of us.

The issue is not any one specific thing she lists, it is the sum of all and his attitude towards the marriage, and their incongruous moral values.

 

[1ke]

BLB_Oregon:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoever said it was way too early to talk about leaving was on the mark.

This is what I thought initially, until another poster referened Seminole’s numerous other posts from some months back and I went and read them.

This issue goes far beyond her current post here on financial issues.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

1ke:

This is what I thought initially, until another poster referened Seminole’s numerous other posts from some months back and I went and read them.

This issue goes far beyond her current post here on financial issues.

Still, unless she faces a hazard to herself, the marriage deserves professional help. From this thread, it would not seem that her marriage has had that. If she has exhausted the professional help available to her and her spouse will not avail himself of any, though, that is a different story. A null marriage won’t come to life by wishing it so or by wringing your hands over the corpse. If it was dead on arrival, by all means, bury it. Just don’t bury one that may not be dead. Call a doctor, kick it a few times, give it some shocks with the defibrillator, make sure the line’s going to stay flat. Then bury it and grieve it, of course.

Again, a legal separation, if that is what is needed to prudently provide for what she reasonably faces should things keep going as they are at present, that is not out of the question. Far from it.

Also, I do not see why her political efforts should have a thing to do with her decision to stay with her husband or not. Those should be two separate spheres, with the needs of the marriage (or, let’s hope not, but possibly the need to see it declared to be what it is: null) coming before political considerations. She can work to fix the laws without watching her own future go down the tubes.

 

[masondoggy]

From reading your OP, the last thing you want to do right now is have your name added to ANYTHING of his. Obviously there are deeper issues in your marriage, so even if you are trying to work things out, there is nothing stopping him from walking out on you and filing for divorce.

What happens in a divorce when you have joint debts? Generally, the debt gets split down the middle, the judge will order who pays what. Well, guess what? The credit card companies don’t give a hoot what kind of court order your have. If your ex misses payments on the debt that he was ordered to pay by the courts, the negative remarks go on YOUR credit report. And there is NOTHING you can do about it. In the banks eyes, if you signed the contract your still liable. Now the only thing you might be able to do is go back to court and sue your ex for contempt of court, but that’s not going to fix your trashed credit.

This mess happens to people all the time. And what’s sad is divorce attorney’s do not warn people.

As of now, if you do not completely, 100% trust your spouse, DO NOT hold joint debt in both of your names. Keep everything seperate, including car loans, credit cards, utility accounts, and keep your name off the mortgage. (the mortgage can cause the biggest headache, because if one spouse is awarded the house in the divorce and they are ordered to re-finance, if they default before they re-finance and the house ends up in foreclosure…guess who’s credit gets trashed…this happens to people all the time)

It’s time for the OP to start concentrating on building her own credit. If you’d like resources on how to do that, I can help. You do not need to make $90K a year yourself to obtain good credit offers and credit limits. In fact, income really doesn’t have that much to do with it.

I am so sorry you are having marriage problems. But the way things have worked out may actually work in your favor now. At least you can protect your credit if this falls apart.

I really hope you can get things worked out with your DH. People can change…even husbands…with a little prayer. Ask me how I know.

 

[1ke]

BLB_Oregon:

Still, unless she faces a hazard to herself, the marriage deserves professional help. From this thread, it would not seem that her marriage has had that. If she has exhausted the professional help available to her and her spouse will not avail himself of any, though, that is a different story.

Yes, her husband has refused counseling.

BLB_Oregon:

Also, I do not see why her political efforts should have a thing to do with her decision to stay with her husband or not. Those should be two separate spheres, with the needs of the marriage (or, let’s hope not, but possibly the need to see it declared to be what it is: null) coming before political considerations. She can work to fix the laws without watching her own future go down the tubes.

Yes, they are separate issues.

 

[asquared]

not sure how to responde because I don’t understand the question. Are you asking what has happened to marriage in general in our culture? or are you asking what has happened in your marriage. A scenario such as you describe is certainly not a picture of a happy or normal marriage relationship, if that is what you are asking. Or are you asking why our social and legal system has changed so that the special character and relationship of marriage is no longer acknowledged and supported.

with regard to credit agencies, financial institutions etc. their practices must conform to law, and our laws are weakening the institutions of marriage and family all the time. That is a process that should be addressed in the political process. However, that still does not make the situation you describe a healthy one, and if your question is individual, rather than general, you should certainly consult a marriage counsellor and a good lawyer. by that I do not mean to contemplate divorce, but to insure your legal rights are protected, and that your husband’s financial activities are not putting you in jeopardy, particularly with IRS. If he is going to free-wheel like this you need to insure you do not become liable for his debts and taxes.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Visit www.daveramsey.com and also contact Dave personally.

He has helped MANY couples get out of financial trouble, even when one of the spouses was unwilling to get involved.

Hunt around and you may find that his radio program is available in your local area.

Very worthwhile.

Non confrontational.

 

[SemperJase]

SeminoleGirl,

You are asking why credit companies don’t respect marriage? For anyone else to respect it, you both must respect it first. It seems your complaint is misplaced. It is not the credit company’s fault that your husband bought the TV.

You are also contributing to your own problems. You’ve withdrawn your affections from your husband and now you are angry he isn’t treating you as you want. I understand his use of pornography was offensive to you. But do you see where your retaliation has led you?

It goes like this:

Wife: I don’t like what you are doing, so I’m going to stop giviing you what you need in this marriage to make you stop.

Husband: Since you aren’t giving me what I need, I’m going to stop giving you other things that you need to.

He started ignoring you after you denied him sex. Well what did he have to lose? Nothing. You already are denying him the affection and respect he wants. He is retaliating in kind (which isn’t a justification.)

In the end, you are more angry at the credit companies rather than focusing on repairing your marriage. After all, you are actively working on changing the laws rather than repairing your marriage.

I point out that these laws in their current state effect all couples, yet couples who have healthy marriages don’t have the same problem you have. Rather than focusing on credit laws, you’d do better to fix your marriage. Then the laws are irrelevant.

Both of you are treating each other disrespectfully. Which one of you is going to break the cycle?

Hint, women almost always have more influence on their husbands than they do on their wives.

 

[she_he]

SeminoleGirl22:

He is a computer whiz. His job is to “hack” computer systems legally to test their security for his company’s clients. His boss will pretty much give him anything he wants because he is so good at what he does. He routinely contracts for the state, Microsoft, Lockheed Martin ect. He grossed over 96,000 dollars last year from what I gather. That is not counting stock options and retirement I guess. Sickening isn’t it?

I have a decent job, and I have my own cell phone, my own car and payment, 2 credit cards with a modest credit limit, and my own health insurance (which isn’t the best). I’m not helpless, but he just does whatever he pleases, spends whatever he wants, pays for ALL of the house and bills, and pretty much ignores me now.

Principle. I have my own (decent) coverage from my job. The TV thing is about how the credit (and other) companies REFUSE to acknowledge a marriage. Our laws don’t really treat a married couple as married. Look at my first post and see some things a person can do WITHOUT the consent of their spouse. The more “vulnerable” and “financially insecure” spouse can be completely taken control of and excluded completely, all perfectly legally. If things worked as they really should, as his wife I should have been able to get my names automatically on the cards and accounts, and be able to stop, and have a say in all this. I am prety much clued into the fact that my marriage isn’t going to work. But if I can help work towards changing the laws so that OTHER women aren’t treated like this, then I will offer up my suffereing for others. (not my original idea, but a great suggestion from a very good priest in my parish)

Ok you have all that stuff is your husbands name on any of it?
you seem more upset of the fact your husband can do all this WITHOUT YOUR EXPRESS PERMISSION. you dont control him any more then he controls you so get over that,
this is coming from someone whom got STUCK big time by having my wife on all my credit,etc.the law you want would probably not pass because of all the men out there that had happen to them the same as me, 125,000 in the hole and BECAUSE i had the better job ALL MY RESPONSIBILITY she was allowed to just walk away after the FORECLOSURE of the house she trashed after I left,was left in unsellable condition walls kicked in,all windows broken out etc
had I been smart i wouldnt have had her on the house, booted her out when I caught her cheating, and stealing money (over 10,000) from the familiy bank account so she could spend days in a hotel when i was at work with her beer truck driver lover,
has your husband been previously married? or maybe knows a person this has happened to, he is probably trying to protect himself from it happening to him,being as you have insurance already if he was to ad you it would cost money,
as far as the credit goes you proved to him why you shouldnt be on it by trying to go behind his back and have the sale turned down,by you doing that you were being just as sneaky, I am not saying anyone of you is right in this, But with the attitude you portrayed in the original post its a control thing for you or so it appears,marriage is in my opinion a 50-50 joint venture,EVEN THOUGH the bible specifically says otherwise and that women are supposed to obey the man (Ephesians 5:21 ) so if you take a
"sacramental"view of this as some have stated you would see that by following “the word” its not a 50-50.

Boy am i going to get it now

Incidently I am engaged and my fiance already has a 50-50 or more in my finances, I wouldnt let my other mishap affect this
2 different people.and I wont let problems from the past affect my future life is too short,better to be broke than to not have tried with 100%

                             John

                           John

 

[SemperJase]

1ke:

However, her husband is not willing to work on the relationship.

We don’t know that. We only know he doesn’t want to go to counseling.

While I am a believer in counseling, it is not the only way to fix a marriage.

Seems like only one person wants to Tango here-- Seminole indicates she is willing to go to counseling and porno-boy is not. He also sees nothing wrong with his behavior. I think that the die is cast and she really should just get out.

I went to read old postings, I did not know the history before my initial answer on this post. After reading the posts, I think she needs individual counseling and a lawyer.

Porno boy? I’m sure that doesn’t help. I’d bet the if he is on a message board, people there are referring to her as “ice queen”.

I’m not sure that either one wants to Tango. She wants him to dance to her tune her way and only her way. No wonder he doesn’t trust her enough to share anything with her. Yes, what he is doing is wrong. From her own description she is contributing to the problems. I’m surprised you are telling her to get a lawyer. Sounds a little man-hating to me.

In spite of all the “adultery of the heart” talk, it is not the same thing as adultery. Boorish, rude and inconsiderate - yes. Even unhealthy and sinful. Yet there is a difference between indulging in porn and actually sleeping with another woman.

Instead of giving him a reason to avoid pornography, she is giving him a great excuse to indulge in it more because of her frigidness. He might have started on the road a bad marriage, but she has taken her turn in the driver seat too.

 

[anna1978]

Ok, I’ve not read messages from months back-just this thread, but… … …I wonder how old this couple is, early 20s I’d say. I could be way off, but the stubbornness, defiance, lack of true communication is just amazing, on both sides, and not in a good way…And I’m afraid I agree with the person who said ‘marry someone of the same Faith and talk it through on the first few dates to make sure you agree on all the important things’…because, marrying someone who doesn’t hold any belief, while you’re a practising Catholic is asking for trouble, no matter what promises they make. At least with a fellow Catholic you’ve got the Bible and the Cathechism to fall back on…This has descended into a powerstruggle playground style ‘The toy is mine…NO, MINE’, ‘I’m right…NO ME ME ME’…Sorry, but without therapy/councelling I think this is going to be like watching a train-wreck …

Anna x