What I believe now

[Laurence_of_PA]

(For the sake of being read, I’ll keep this briefaspossible…)

I’ve been through these forums in and out, trying to gain insight and faith in my childhood faith, but after roughly nine months of searching for answers – *Catholic *Answers – these are my conclusions:

1. I’m not sure God exists…
2. I’m not sure it is possible to even *know *whether He exists…

**However…What I am sure of is religion:

Religion – *especially *organized religion – can and *will *continue to be a great and unifying force in society that brings health and hope to billions of people across the globe. Granted, religion is responsible for many of the ills of human history, yet so long as religion – or any ideology for that matter – is focused upon the needs of its people, it makes for positive medicine.

To the ignorant it brings everlasting assurance…

To the informed it brings everlasting debate…

So I may be agnostic now, but give me a call and I’ll merrily pass out pamphlets!

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Laurence of PA;

The creation of the universe has already happened; the only thing is we have no proof of how it came to be. But one of the following statements has to be based on truth and the other fiction.

There a God who was fully responsible for the creation of the universe?

Or is there no God and the universe came into existence through natural means?

Whatever you or I choose to believe we cannot alter something that has already happened.

The God that does not exist is the probable or maybe God, because how can you have a probable god?

If and only if God exists then he has to be the most important part of our lives because our future depends on him. That is were faith comes in I just trust that God exists fully and he is as real as the tree in my Garden, but I have no proof that I can show you.

In the spirit of searching for god

Eric

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Greetings and peace be with you Laurence of PA;

Greetings to you as well and I am glad that you have responded. I just hope you understand though how long I’ve struggled with theology. By no means did I change my stance on a whim.

The creation of the universe has already happened; the only thing is we have no proof of how it came to be. But one of the following statements has to be based on truth and the other fiction

Agreed.

There a God who was fully responsible for the creation of the universe?

Or is there no God and the universe came into existence through natural means?

Whatever you or I choose to believe we cannot alter something that has already happened.

Of course.

The God that does not exist is the probable or maybe God, because how can you have a probable god?

You’re right in saying that God can either exist or not exist, but the problem here is your assumption that humanity can answer this question *and *whether or not that answer matters much.

Say for example you have a village whose belief system is resting on a public debate between a Jew and a Buddhist (if the Jew wins, the community will become Jewish while if the Buddhist wins, the community will become Buddhist). The debate might come all the way down to nit-pricking about random historical passages dealing with events 2,000 years ago which the average villager in that village never even heard of, yet either way, the religion chosen will become the glue which holds the community together. So personally, I can’t see a problem with the said community being Humanists for all it matters, just as long as the chosen belief system promotes the well-being of its aderents.

If and only if God exists then he has to be the most important part of our lives because our future depends on him. That is were faith comes in I just trust that God exists fully and he is as real as the tree in my Garden, but I have no proof that I can show you.

In the spirit of searching for god

Eric

Hey. To some people faith in God is how they get through their day, and I can respect that, but even in my orthodox days it was never how I (conciously) got through mine.

 

[Deconi]

(For the sake of being read, I’ll keep this briefaspossible…)

I’ve been through these forums in and out, trying to gain insight and faith in my childhood faith, but after roughly nine months of searching for answers – *Catholic *Answers – these are my conclusions:

1. I’m not sure God exists…
2. I’m not sure it is possible to even *know *whether He exists…

**However…What I *am ***sure of is religion:

Religion – *especially *organized religion – can and *will *continue to be a great and unifying force in society that brings health and hope to billions of people across the globe. Granted, religion is responsible for many of the ills of human history, yet so long as religion – or any ideology for that matter – is focused upon the needs of its people, it makes for positive medicine.

To the ignorant it brings everlasting assurance…

To the informed it brings everlasting debate…

So I may be agnostic now, but give me a call and I’ll merrily pass out pamphlets!

Laurence, the only proof that God exists is Jesus Christ. That is not only in pious, spiritual sense, but logical, physically verifiable sense!

If it was “easy” to prove the existence of God, there would be no other ‘belief system’ in existence. However, if it “was” easy to prove the existence of God, then He would be cheating because no fool will be stupid enough to deny Him, knowing that salvation is at stake. Who wants to go to Hell, willingly? Not me.

In the end, there must be an element of “faith” where an individual can actually, freely, say, “I’m actually not certain, BUT I CHOOSE GOD because I want to be saved. So what should I do or learn to do?”

Jesus CHRIST. He physically ‘existed’ 2000 years ago and walked this earth as ‘an ordinary’ man. In spite of that, a ‘faith’ is still necessary to accept THAT as being factual!!?!?! There are hordes and scores of research and opinions claiming that HE DID NOT EXIST! Yet ‘they’ condemn men to death in the courts for a minute fraction of like evidence!!??

Once you are settled that HE EXISTED as His Apostles, His Church, His Book tells us, then you will understand that He STILL EXISTS TODAY and everything else will fall into place about God’s existence. Everything is through The Son. Without Him, there is no Light to illuminate intelligence.

Without Him, it is difficult to ‘see God’ inspite of being surrounded by mountains and mountains of His existence!

 

[ralphinal]

Laurence,
This is one of the most mature posts I have seen from an agnostic. Not because of what you said or how you said it, but because of your signature. What does it hurt if I am Christain? AM I making the world a bad place by preaching forgivness and love? Just keep the positive attitude, and I think you will be alright:thumbsup:

 

[justinthemartyr]

Laurence, the first chapter of Fulton Sheen’s book, “The Life of Christ” nails it on the head. I would suggest you go to a bookstore(Christian/Catholic) and read those two pages.

The chapter is titled, “the only person ever preannounced”

I hope this helps. peace to you.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Laurence, the only proof that God exists is Jesus Christ. That is not only in pious, spiritual sense, but logical, physically verifiable sense!

I have to admit that this *is *one of the most honest and disarming statements I’ve ever read about God’s existence, and to a certain extent, I even agree. I personally hate it whenever I hear references to Aquinas and his “five ways” or about how the Big Bang “proves” something. It’s mere speculation. C.S. Lewis’ trilemna is much more direct.

In the end, there must be an element of “faith” where an individual can actually, freely, say, “I’m actually not certain, BUT I CHOOSE GOD because I want to be saved. So what should I do or learn to do?”

This is one of the places where I have a problem. If someone wanted to be “saved”, obviously a matter with that sort of gravity would have to be dealt with pragmatically, or in other words, they’d want to be an informed shopper. The problem is: if a completely unbiased person wanted to learn the truth about Jesus Christ – whatever it might be – they’d have to sort through a mountain of theological and archaeological works. Only after all this research could they make a truly informed decision.

I simply feel that if Christianity was all that essential to mankind salvation-wise, it would be far easier for individual men to understand. After all, how could you compare a man who spends 30 years studying Jesus only to become an atheist to a man who accepts Christianity based on a gut decision?

The problem is, the majority (like 99%) of religious adherents base their belief on their “gut”. I don’t fault them for it like I used to, but I myself simply can’t find truth with it.

Just yesterday I was at the Caitlin House (a museum now) in downtown Scranton, and since this Victorian-era mansion is now a tribute to my area’s heritage, it is full of depressing black-and-white photos of coal miners. Just by looking at these pail-faced miners with sut covering their lean bodies, it’s easy to see why their religion was so important to them.

Quite honestly, it was the *only *hope the poor wretches had, so who cares if it was Catholicism, Judaism, or Seventh-Day Adventism? They just worshipped as they were brought up to worship. And (I guess) if it doesn’t matter *which one *they choose then it’s not very important beyond it’s benefits to one’s well-being.

Jesus CHRIST. He physically ‘existed’ 2000 years ago and walked this earth as ‘an ordinary’ man. In spite of that, a ‘faith’ is still necessary to accept THAT as being factual!!?!?! There are hordes and scores of research and opinions claiming that HE DID NOT EXIST! Yet ‘they’ condemn men to death in the courts for a minute fraction of like evidence!!??

Once you are settled that HE EXISTED as His Apostles, His Church, His Book tells us, then you will understand that He STILL EXISTS TODAY and everything else will fall into place about God’s existence. Everything is through The Son. Without Him, there is no Light to illuminate intelligence.

Without Him, it is difficult to ‘see God’ inspite of being surrounded by mountains and mountains of His existence!

I don’t trust my gut. At all really. That’s why I’m skinny!

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi Laurence,

Have you ever researched prophecy? I find it fascinating and I’m hoping you do too.

 

[Ahimsa]

I don’t trust my gut. At all really. That’s why I’m skinny!

You need to eat more. Then you’ll have faith.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Laurence of PA;

Only after all this research could they make a truly informed decision.

I was pretty much agnostic until my late fortys, when I started to make a conscious effort to search for God and meaning in the local library. After a year or two of reading about religions, evolution and the universe, I was full of information but no wiser.

If I cannot prove that God exists then how can I prove that Islam, Christianity, or Hinduism is true?

I think wisdom comes when you start doing things with the knowledge you have.

The one thing that has inspired me and driven me to change and do things is searching for a greatest meaning of one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen. When I walk through town I see a part of God’s wonderful creation, I see people who could be atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew; all created by the same God. This makes us all children of the same God making us all brothers and sisters together.

We each have a duty of care to look help look after God’s creation and that comes down to caring about each other despite all our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of one God

Eric

 

[Bishopite]

(For the sake of being read, I’ll keep this briefaspossible…)

I’ve been through these forums in and out, trying to gain insight and faith in my childhood faith, but after roughly nine months of searching for answers – *Catholic *Answers – these are my conclusions:

1. I’m not sure God exists…
2. I’m not sure it is possible to even *know *whether He exists…

**However…What I *am ***sure of is religion:

Religion – *especially *organized religion – can and *will *continue to be a great and unifying force in society that brings health and hope to billions of people across the globe. Granted, religion is responsible for many of the ills of human history, yet so long as religion – or any ideology for that matter – is focused upon the needs of its people, it makes for positive medicine.

To the ignorant it brings everlasting assurance…

To the informed it brings everlasting debate…

So I may be agnostic now, but give me a call and I’ll merrily pass out pamphlets!

Welcome. I’m interested, though, in your signature which ends with “everyone needs a pain killer” and that for some, religion is a painkiller.

Why do we need a “painkiller?”

From what pain are we needing relief?

 

[Bishopite]

(For the sake of being read, I’ll keep this briefaspossible…)

I’ve been through these forums in and out, trying to gain insight and faith in my childhood faith, but after roughly nine months of searching for answers – *Catholic *Answers – these are my conclusions:

1. I’m not sure God exists…
2. I’m not sure it is possible to even *know *whether He exists…

**However…What I *am ***sure of is religion:

Religion – *especially *organized religion – can and *will *continue to be a great and unifying force in society that brings health and hope to billions of people across the globe. Granted, religion is responsible for many of the ills of human history, yet so long as religion – or any ideology for that matter – is focused upon the needs of its people, it makes for positive medicine.

To the ignorant it brings everlasting assurance…

To the informed it brings everlasting debate…

So I may be agnostic now, but give me a call and I’ll merrily pass out pamphlets!

Welcome. If you are sure “religion” is true, then you aren’t too far off from finding you way back to THE true religion; which is Catholicism.
Humans were created to worship, something–a higher being of some sort (what we call God); this is evident in remote areas of the world where no tribal groups without any contact with any religious group, start their own worship of a diety. Worship of a diety is inherent in humanity.
And you’ve recognized organized religion which is also a good observation since unorganized religion would be, well…chaotic.

One very distinct difference between all religions of the world and Christianity (Catholicism being true Christianity) is Jesus Christ who not only fulfilled many prophecies written thousands of years prior to His Earthly walk, but claimed and proved through the evidence, what NO other religeous leader has ever claimed nor proven; that He was God.

 

[Mirdath]

Welcome to the club!

I love the new signature too

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Laurence

When you say your not sure if God exists, did you ever ask Him if He was there? Did you ever ask the hard questions? even demand them?

Now, these** can only **be asked if one is willing to hear a answer. Some ask only from arrogance thinking they wont hear. But if you expect to hear you will.

This is something I have done alot of and the answers come. Not always the way you expect. And you will doubt it. Then a confirmation comes. Then you say oh that whole thing was a considence.

Then you ask again and again and notice that odds are being broken. And not to mention the harder you try, the more you find your foot in your mouth.

Such is my experience, the little ole skeptic that I am.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions, only something wrong when you dont want to hear answers.

I could double dog dare ya if you want.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Laurence

When you say your not sure if God exists, did you ever ask Him if He was there? Did you ever ask the hard questions? even demand them?

Now, these** can only **be asked if one is willing to hear a answer. Some ask only from arrogance thinking they wont hear. But if you expect to hear you will.

The Man [who might be upstairs] knows Himself that I want to believe in Him, and if He gave me a pretty dang good sign, I’d accept Him and everything else the Church teaches without question.

Several weeks ago when I was first entertaining the idea of unbelief, I remember I was cleaning my room when a marble plaque fell and smacked me hard in the foot. Now, the thing is, this was no ordinary plaque. It was an award I had won at a speech-and-debate tournament at Meyer’s High School nine months ago, but that tournament was very significant. During it, I got into first a discussion and then a heated argument with an atheist, and I was so unprepared that it has left me traumatized to this day. In fact, it was because of that incident that I began to examine and learn about my faith.

Do you mean *that *sort of sign? It’s all true, but I don’t believe it’s anything more than my clumsiness.

This is something I have done alot of and the answers come. Not always the way you expect. And you will doubt it. Then a confirmation comes. Then you say oh that whole thing was a considence.

I have been searching for answers too for a while, and yes, I wanted answers that would strengthen my faith. The problem is: I want them to derive from logic, not from a coincidence I will only trust through my emotions. I want more than just a “burning in the bosom.”

Then you ask again and again and notice that odds are being broken. And not to mention the harder you try, the more you find your foot in your mouth.

Such is my experience, the little ole skeptic that I am.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions, only something wrong when you dont want to hear answers.

I could double dog dare ya if you want.

You might take this as sarcasm, but I will mean it with the utmost sincerity:

God, if you exist and exist in the way the Catholic Church says you do, show me a sign over the next week. Please.

In a week’s time, I’ll get back to you if something really good happened, but still, my anti-“burning in the bosom” bias is pretty strong.

 

[LilyM]

I have been searching for answers too for a while, and yes, I wanted answers that would strengthen my faith. The problem is: I want them to derive from logic, not from a coincidence I will only trust through my emotions. I want more than just a “burning in the bosom.”

A ‘burning in the bosom’ was all the disciples on the Road to Emmaus got - ‘did not our hearts burn within us’ y’know … and it was good enough for them.

You want logic? Read Aquinas. But realise that you could logically know everything there is to know about God and still not know HIM, and unless you go beyond the logic and know HIM there’s not even a point to knowing about or believing in Him.

 

[justinthemartyr]

pain is the touchstone of all spiritual progress.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

pain is the touchstone of all spiritual progress.

That’s an excellent point. Now what is it exactly?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

The Man [who might be upstairs] knows Himself that I want to believe in Him, and if He gave me a pretty dang good sign, I’d accept Him and everything else the Church teaches without question.

Fair enough, but why dont you take it one step at a time? Why dont you start with the man that should be upstairs and His Son? Then the rest. It just leaves too much to consider at once thats all.

Several weeks ago when I was first entertaining the idea of unbelief, I remember I was cleaning my room when a marble plaque fell and smacked me hard in the foot. Now, the thing is, this was no ordinary plaque. It was an award I had won at a speech-and-debate tournament at Meyer’s High School nine months ago, but that tournament was very significant. During it, I got into first a discussion and then a heated argument with an atheist, and I was so unprepared that it has left me traumatized to this day. In fact, it was because of that incident that I began to examine and learn about my faith.
Do you mean *that *sort of sign? It’s all true, but I don’t believe it’s anything more than my clumsiness.

Well, I did say it can be something you dont expect. You say that you got into a arguement with a atheist there and found yourself unprepared and annoyed with yourself and with God cause it would have been better to know than be left open. Am I right?

Now, you drop that plaque on the floor where you had won. So are you to think that (look you still feel bad about that arguement and the award seems meaningless) or a reminder that (even though you had a arguement, you did win) Now, you need a confirmation. Then it will still seem like your clumsy, so you will need another indicator. Im not making a judgement on you here, only sharing experience.

I have been searching for answers too for a while, and yes, I wanted answers that would strengthen my faith. The problem is: I want them to derive from logic, not from a coincidence I will only trust through my emotions. I want more than just a “burning in the bosom.”

Im with you there! Things have to be logical or I simply cannot get them. Im getting ahead here, but if your serious, you will find God to be extemely logical. Thats why I like Him so much. But for now one step at a time. Whats one thing you find illlogical?

Also, on the topic of atheists, I had a ex catholic friend who had turned atheist. She was brutal in discussions, I didnt have the answers. Thats how I ended up on the path your on now, Im just farther along on it than you are at the moment. And shes not the only hostile one that I count in with my friends btw.

You might take this as sarcasm, but I will mean it with the utmost sincerity:

God, if you exist and exist in the way the Catholic Church says you do, show me a sign over the next week. Please.

In a week’s time, I’ll get back to you if something really good happened, but still, my anti-“burning in the bosom” bias is pretty strong.

As long as your willing to think about what He may show you. Dont write things off as coincidence. But watch listen and see what happens. At least you were polite about it, I was a bit more harsh.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

btw thought Id give you a example of what your looking for, or can be.

My hubby is in the middle of making some decisions. Im with a friend several days ago, and explain it to her. After she starts praying and asks God to give him wisdom to make the decision, I add and it has to be first thing in the morning because then he will know its from You.

(hubby finds 100% answers first thing in the morning when he prays the night before, for me, it doesnt work that way but for him it does)

Anyway this morn hubby is in restaurant having breakfast. The pastor come in to eat before going to open the church. They talk and solutions come,

So break it down; hubby didnt know we prayed
hubby eats there all the time and Pastor never comes in
It was first thing in the morning and wisdom came

There are a few more details that continue to break odds. (I hope you know what that means) Too much for simple considence.

There is a quick scenario of Gods answers.