What I believe now

[AgnosTheist]

a very good way to see if God exists is to ask Him. Ask this God, who ever or whatever He/it is, if He is out there, to reveal Himself to you. Ask this everyday, for two weeks straight, and see what happens.

did that already. nothing happened. same old, same old.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Hello there, fellow agnostic.

i dont get it, how is it logical & physically verifiable that the ONLY proof that God exists is Jesus Christ?

Are you saying there’s convincing proof that even more unconvincing proof is out there!

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Laurence,

a very good way to see if God exists is to ask Him. Ask this God, who ever or whatever He/it is, if He is out there, to reveal Himself to you. Ask this everyday, for two weeks straight, and see what happens.

It takes a lot of courage to do this.

Also, it would be a good idea to stay away from discussions such as these while doing this, as it can interfere with the people God really might want to work through in real life, not the
one dimensional world of the internet.

If I did that and recieved an answer, how would I know I’m not being possessed by the ghost of Rene Descartes?

I pray you understand the allusion.

 

[justinthemartyr]

I guess you will not know until you try it. else you would be guilty of contempt prior to investigation.

You can therefore try to achieve your goal(s) by continued discussion and debate, but discussion and debate rarely gets you anywhere, it takes action, and more action. I did not learn to drive a Semi truck through mere study, it took doing it, and neither did I learn to sculpt beautiful art by discussion and debate, it took much action, beginning with picking up the materials and doing it. Trial and error.

Do you think that if you pick up something other than God Himself that you cannot be emptied of that thing later?
The only balkers at prayer are the one’s who have not tried it enough.
I know, it is a scary prospect, but again, if you are not willing to do it, then you will never know and therefore would not be counted as a true skeptic and would then be in contempt prior to investigation.

 

[Mirdath]

I guess you will not know until you try it. else you would be guilty of contempt prior to investigation.

He’s been trying for nine months.

The only balkers at prayer are the one’s who have not tried it enough.

How much is ‘enough’?

 

[LilyM]

How much is ‘enough’?

The consequences of rejecting God are eternal, remember. The eternal consequences of false belief in Him if He doesn’t exist are precisely zip.

And look at the example of saints such as Monica who prayed for 20 years for the conversion of her husband and son and had both prayers answered - in spades in the case of St Augustine her son.

I should think nine months is scratching the surface

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, we know that Jesus is the Word made flesh and that Word was God, and the Word is God. We also know that Jesus exist. We have sources from non-Christian sources that he lived in Judea.

So God does exist. He is real. He is mere figment of our imagination. He created us. If there was no God, we would not exist because of God created us.

The other proof that God exist is the Shroud of Turin, which is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ. Do your research on the Shroud and you will be convinced that it is the burial cloth of the Word of God.

God exist my friend. If he didn’t, you would not be here.

 

[Mirdath]

The consequences of rejecting God are eternal, remember. The eternal consequences of false belief in Him if He doesn’t exist are precisely zip.

Pascal’s Wager strikes again!

And look at the example of saints such as Monica who prayed for 20 years for the conversion of her husband and son and had both prayers answered - in spades in the case of St Augustine her son.

I should think nine months is scratching the surface

Monica never balked – and indeed, she is an admirable role model, but not particularly applicable. Augustine is perhaps more so, and as tradition would have it, his praying or not praying didn’t matter one whit.

Try looking at it from this side for a bit. You’re asking someone who does not have faith to spend at least a quarter of his or her life begging for faith from the very being the person doesn’t have faith in. It just doesn’t make sense.

Your post also presents two strikingly different portraits of faith. In the first part, you treat it as an on-off switch we’re free to flip whenever we choose. In the second, it’s a gift from God: bestowed, perhaps ignored like the too-large set of briefs from Aunt Mabel, but still always there once given.

It can’t be both ways. Which one is the correct portrayal?

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

I guess you will not know until you try it. else you would be guilty of contempt prior to investigation.

You can therefore try to achieve your goal(s) by continued discussion and debate, but discussion and debate rarely gets you anywhere, it takes action, and more action. I did not learn to drive a Semi truck through mere study, it took doing it, and neither did I learn to sculpt beautiful art by discussion and debate, it took much action, beginning with picking up the materials and doing it. Trial and error.

Do you think that if you pick up something other than God Himself that you cannot be emptied of that thing later?
The only balkers at prayer are the one’s who have not tried it enough.
I know, it is a scary prospect, but again, if you are not willing to do it, then you will never know and therefore would not be counted as a true skeptic and would then be in contempt prior to investigation.

I apologize if you’re new to these forums and haven’t gotten to “know me”, but take a look at my posting history and you might learn a thing or two about my “spiritual progress.”

                        ...................................

I began on CAF as a fretful little Catholic boy weary of apostasy and afraid of atheists (no kidding, I was actually afraid of who I am now ). So, at first I sought assurance…

After gaining initial comfort, I wanted to be “firm in my faith” so that I could truly spread the gospel the way Christ commanded it. But, to do this I needed answers. So, I swallowed up every “proof” of God’s existence I came across and tried to make sense of it myself…

The trouble was: I had a hard time…a *really *hard time making sense of Church teaching as well as God’s existence. So, I began to dig deeper and began to ask the “tough questions”…

Pretty soon, I was playing devil’s advocate like computer solitaire, doing everything I could to reach the very *root *of any debate. All this was in the hopes that I could recieve the best logical answers if only I dug deep enough. But, the logical answers never came for the “tough questions”, only the theological ones which made little sense unless you already believed…

Frustration followed, but then one day I lifted myself out of the tunnel I was digging only to find I was now on the other side of the fence – Agnostic Acres…

…And here I am now

…

Once again: All this can be confirmed through my posting history…

…but…what can’t be found on the internet are all the times I sat in Church or alone in the wilderness and prayed that God would make things clear for me. That part you *won’t *find!

The “loss of eden” (as I think they call it) is not a happy experience, so please stop accusing me of insincerity.

 

[Mirdath]

The “loss of eden” (as I think they call it) is not a happy experience, so please stop accusing me of insincerity.

Yep. It’s miserable. And oddly enough, it seems that people just write it off as nothing right up until it happens to them.

If you’re ever in the Detroit metro area, Laurence, let me know. I’ll buy you a drink

 

[LilyM]

Your post also presents two strikingly different portraits of faith. In the first part, you treat it as an on-off switch we’re free to flip whenever we choose. In the second, it’s a gift from God: bestowed, perhaps ignored like the too-large set of briefs from Aunt Mabel, but still always there once given.

It can’t be both ways. Which one is the correct portrayal?

It can be both ways. It’s not having faith (or having surety or certainty of God’s existence anyway) that’s the on-off switch. That IS pure gift from God.

It’s prayer - whether praying simply for faith (‘Lord, I believe, help my unbelief’) or for something else (‘if you want to you can cure me’) that can be done regardless. Prayer is an act of the will.

It’s a bit like love - one can act in a loving manner regardless of feelings - the old ‘I love you, I just don’t like you very much’ scenario. And just because one doesn’t feel particularly loving - or filled with faith - doesn’t make the act a sham. It’s a gesture of at least opening the door for the possibility of feelings that either have been or will be, whether or not they exist in the present.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The “loss of eden” (as I think they call it) is not a happy experience, so please stop accusing me of insincerity.

I’m not sure if your “loss of eden” would be comparable to the desert experience many Christians feel as they get closer to God. For me, the closer to God I become, the worse the “awayness” feels. There are times I just feel I am going through the motions. Being Catholic helps me through these “dry spells,” because there is so much to keep me coming back. These dry periods are important in the spiritual journey. I also think these are the times the Devil comes in to tempt us away altogether from the faith. Many Christians join what I call “hormonal high” denominations to jump start them out of their depression, only to fall even lower when the emotion wears off.

It is important to continue going to mass and praying. I find early morning daily mass, quiet and reverent, very helpful.

The ultimate desert is Hell, or total separation from God.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

The consequences of rejecting God are eternal, remember. The eternal consequences of false belief in Him if He doesn’t exist are precisely zip.

And look at the example of saints such as Monica who prayed for 20 years for the conversion of her husband and son and had both prayers answered - in spades in the case of St Augustine her son.

I should think nine months is scratching the surface

NINE MONTHS! Sheesh! That hardly *approaches *scratching the surface!

**Sometimes it takes 1521 *years *to discover Quetzalcoatl! **

So if you want to believe in him before you die you better start praying now!

 

[homewardbound]

I just wanna say I wish you the best in life and happiness in whatever you choose to believe. My best friend is agnostic and I completely understand her reasons for what she believes. Its all about really what makes most sense to us. I was agnostic for two years, I felt lost and alone, and I couldn’t feel God for a long time. On my own, I realized I did believe He existed though, because in my mind thats what makes most sense to me. Also, I am always happier and feel more comfortable when practicing my belief and worshiping God, even when at times I can’t always “feel” His presence. Its all a choice and all in what makes us most comfortable and feel we get the most of out of life. I don’t look down on nor feel sorry for anyone who chooses to believe differently than me because what makes 100% sense to me won’t make sense to everyone else. I hope whatever you believe in this life, it will be fulfilling for you and help you feel more complete as you live your life. All we can do is the best we can, even if sometimes its not “right” for others or the easiest way to go, all we can do is be true to ourselves and our beliefs. For me, it was digging deep and being true to myself in realizing I do belief in a higher power and finding the route that was right for me. Whats right for me might not be right for you, and I can respect that. Take care and God Bless(as I hope He will)

 

[mgrfin]

I’m from the Anthracite Coal Capital of the World. The shiny stuff’s no longer mined the way it was before the Knox Mine Disaster, but guess where Santa *goes *for his coal?

(Realistic relativist)?

Whatever you want it to mean.

Spoken like a teenager. I thought we were here to discuss things.

Peace.

 

[zerinus]

1. I’m not sure God exists…
2. I’m not sure it is possible to even *know *whether He exists…

Allow me to assure you that the answer to both those questions is positive.

yet so long as religion – or any ideology for that matter – is focused upon the needs of its people, it makes for positive medicine.

This is something (I have emphasized the significant part) with which I must fundamentally disagree. There have been many “ideologies” that have been (supposedly) “focused upon the needs of its people,” but have led those people to disasters. Communism and Socialism are probably the best know examples in modern times. A religion is more than just an ideology. One of the distinguishing features of religion is that it could be either “true” or “false”. An ideology cannot be easily classified in those terms.

So personally, I can’t see a problem with the said community being Humanists for all it matters, just as long as the chosen belief system promotes the well-being of its aderents.

I do not agree. See above.

God, if you exist and exist in the way the Catholic Church says you do, show me a sign over the next week. Please.

What makes you think that God must “exist in the way that the Catholic Church says He does,” or else not exist at all? If you are searching for the truth, and do not claim to already know it, you must be prepared to keep an open mind. What if God existed in some other way than the way in which the Catholic Church says He does? Don’t you want to know Him then? Are you really prepared to take such a risk?

If I did that and recieved an answer, how would I know I’m not being possessed by the ghost of Rene Descartes?

I pray you understand the allusion.

That is based on a fundamentally false premise. It implies that you believe that the omnipotent God is so weak and miserable that He lacks the will, the desire, or the power to make Himself known to you (or anyone else) in such a way as to leave no room for doubt in your mind that He exists. This is not only a great insult to God; but it begs the question of why you would want to know such a weak and miserable God any way? If that was my idea of God, I don’t think I would want to know Him. I would have such a high contempt for Him that I wouldn’t think He would be worth knowing. Perhaps that is your fundamental problem in your search for God. Your concept of Him is so contemptible that He is not willing to reveal Himself to you. If I were God, I don’t think I would want to reveal myself to someone who held me in such great contempt! If that is truly your perception of God, then you are not yet ready to receive Him. You would have to do a lot better than that!

zerinus

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Spoken like a teenager. I thought we were here to discuss things.

Peace.

Spoken like a contemptuous adult. As for “whatever you want it to mean”, I was implying (rather facetiously) that since I doubt ultimate truth can be known, it is in an individual’s best interests to pursue whichever worldview or “truth” that will do the most good for themselves and society as a whole.

Double Peace.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

That is based on a fundamentally false premise. It implies that you believe that the omnipotent God is so weak and miserable that He lacks the will, the desire, or the power to make Himself known to you (or anyone else) in such a way as to leave no room for doubt in your mind that He exists. This is not only a great insult to God; but it begs the question of why you would want to know such a weak and miserable God any way? If that was my idea of God, I don’t think I would want to know Him. I would have such a high contempt for Him that I wouldn’t think He would be worth knowing. Perhaps that is your fundamental problem in your search for God. Your concept of Him is so contemptible that He is not willing to reveal Himself to you. If I were God, I don’t think I would want to reveal myself to someone who held me in such great contempt! If that is truly your perception of God, then you are not yet ready to receive Him. You would have to do a lot better than that!

Chill out there.

All I said was I would have no way of knowing the source of a “sign” even if it came, and chances are, the stereotypical “God feeling” is just your emotions wanting to believe in God. My emotions tell me Mayonaisse is intrinsically evil, and though mayo is a sin against nature , there’s a slight chance that* I* just think it’s disgusting.

In other words, my emotions are so biased that I have a bias against my emotions. (if I become famous one day that’s going in a quotebook )

Look up the word “truthiness”

 

[mgrfin]

Spoken like a contemptuous adult. As for “whatever you want it to mean”, I was implying (rather facetiously) that since I doubt ultimate truth can be known, it is in an individual’s best interests to pursue whichever worldview or “truth” that will do the most good for themselves and society as a whole.

Double Peace.

Let us know when you are speaking facetiously, or when you are speaking seriously.

You will be treated like you want to be treated. Respect for elders is a mark of breeding.

peace

 

[homewardbound]

Chill out there.
Look up the word “truthiness”

Colbert’s Catholic ya know?