What I believe now

[Mirdath]

Absolute morality requires absoute underlying grounding.

And your absolute underlying grounding is your belief in God’s law — which, frankly, is pretty subjective when one gets right down to it. Denomination A thinks God’s law says this; denomination B thinks God’s law says that. Neither can really prove itself correct.

Since I do not have faith in any God, I tend to judge morality by the categorical imperative, which is plenty absolute and does not presuppose the existence of a deity…

 

[Kitty_Chan]

. Rather, what I am saying is that the underlying grounding for those morals need not be the same.

You may fear God…

Bobby may fear Odin…

I fear for the person I may cause harm to…

Yet we all decide in the end not to steal Tiny Tim’s bowl of soup, don’t we???

I hope that clears up my position a bit…

Actually, for what its worth, to me it does.

so, in your examples why should anyone, not want to steal Tiny Tims soup??

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Actually, for what its worth, to me it does.

so, in your examples why should anyone, not want to steal Tiny Tims soup??

Cause our genetic makeup has made us into caring compassionate people who are concerned for the well-being of our fellow species. Also, it makes *us *feel good inside to know that poor Tiny Tim has been provided for…

 

[mgrfin]

And your absolute underlying grounding is your belief in God’s law — which, frankly, is pretty subjective when one gets right down to it. Denomination A thinks God’s law says this; denomination B thinks God’s law says that. Neither can really prove itself correct.

Since I do not have faith in any God, I tend to judge morality by the categorical imperative, which is plenty absolute and does not presuppose the existence of a deity…

I don’t think the world wishes to be deceived.

If there is no god, there is no necessity to have a morality. Those who think so are the biggest fools.

peace

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Cause our genetic makeup has made us into caring compassionate people who are concerned for the well-being of our fellow species. Also, it makes *us *feel good inside to know that poor Tiny Tim has been provided for…

Sorta like the law of human nature?? How different civilisations have behaved over the yrs. And while not exactly the same, they were not entirely different either. No one in any age likes a double crosser for instance.

 

[mgrfin]

Cause our genetic makeup has made us into caring compassionate people who are concerned for the well-being of our fellow species. Also, it makes *us *feel good inside to know that poor Tiny Tim has been provided for…

So, what you are saying is that we are good to our neighbor because that is in our genes?

If that were so, how come there is so much hatred, and violence against our neighbor. And people shoot, rob, steal, abuse, lie, and overall reck havoc on our fellow man.

How did Hitler come to stuff 6 million Jews into ovens, and a whole people let him do it, for it was good to hate the crucifiers of the Lord Jesus, or they did not have blonde hair or blue eyes.

You have to come up with a better theory as to why men are good, because your theory does not hold water.

Because of the first sin of Adam, men are inclined to evil. Feeling warm and fuzzy inside just doesn’t do it for most folk.

Gaudete

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

So, what you are saying is that we are good to our neighbor because that is in our genes?

Obviously it has evolutionary benefits, or else such genes as those for Oxytocin would have long ago become extinct. Of course, religion and supernatural belief obviously provided an evolutionary advantage as well, since both help provide standards of supportive behavior for human societies.

You’ll probably attribute human behavior to the old “God made it that way”, but if that makes you a happy homo sapien sapien, so be it. Just stay out of the biochemistry laboratory.

**I think the paradoxical thing about human evolution is it favored beings who refuse to believe in human evolution. **

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

If that were so, how come there is so much hatred, and violence against our neighbor. And people shoot, rob, steal, abuse, lie, and overall reck havoc on our fellow man.

You’re right! How could God, if he existed, allow such things.

(no offense, I’m just making fun of another one of your weak, ad hominem arguments )

How did Hitler come to stuff 6 million Jews into ovens, and a whole people let him do it, for it was good to hate the crucifiers of the Lord Jesus, or they did not have blonde hair or blue eyes.

He did it because he believed in God. What kind of diabolical God *that *was: I have no idea, but still:

Hitler was a man of faith!

You have to come up with a better theory as to why men are good, because your theory does not hold water.

Because Thor made us that way?

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Sorta like the law of human nature?? How different civilisations have behaved over the yrs. And while not exactly the same, they were not entirely different either. No one in any age likes a double crosser for instance.

In case you got this from Mere Christianity, I too read it. 'Twas a good book, but not bullet proof.

 

[Mirdath]

**I think the paradoxical thing about human evolution is it favored beings who refuse to believe in human evolution. **

 

[mgrfin]

You’re right! How could God, if he existed, allow such things.

(no offense, I’m just making fun of another one of your weak, ad hominem arguments )

He did it because he believed in God. What kind of diabolical God *that *was: I have no idea, but still:

Hitler was a man of faith!

Because Thor made us that way?

You must be developing some sort of inferiority complex.

No one is making ‘ad hominem’ arguments against you.

Your statements are just nonsensical. “Hilter was a man of faith”.
How absurb! If he really believed, he wouldn’t have blown his brains out. You must be getting these ideas from some strange places.

Evil in this world has not God to blame. Man chose evil in the Garden of Eden.

“Thor made us that way”. ??? This site is not the place for your juvenile musings.

Have a nice Guadete Sunday.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

In case you got this from Mere Christianity, I too read it. 'Twas a good book, but not bullet proof.

testing ya thats why I said your position was clear with me.

I can certainly tell by the pattern of discussion you have read some thoughts on atheists, including the bit with Hitler. Its the same old arguements that are trotted out each time. So with that in mind;

Did you ever stop to realise that, there is no truth apart from God. And if God did indeed create the world. Would it not be logical for Him to leave His mark all over it? Its not hard for a critical eye to know a designer of a car, clothing, or any number of things.

God is truth. Someone without faith can state truth. Because it is there to find. Every time you find truth, you find God.

 

[mgrfin]

Obviously it has evolutionary benefits, or else such genes as those for Oxytocin would have long ago become extinct. Of course, religion and supernatural belief obviously provided an evolutionary advantage as well, since both help provide standards of supportive behavior for human societies.

You’ll probably attribute human behavior to the old “God made it that way”, but if that makes you a happy homo sapien sapien, so be it. Just stay out of the biochemistry laboratory.

I think the paradoxical thing about human evolution is it favored beings who refuse to believe in human evolution.

More nonesense from the young man from Scranton.

How can you prove to us that human evolution favored those who refuse to believe in it. Does anyone here comprehend what that means. It seems to say that human evolution was wilfully chosen by amoebas, and single cells beings. As if an amoeba can chose to be a human. Non-sequitur.

If you want to know what a person believes, and it is not clear from what he says or does, ask him.

I believe in free will. God does not make me, or the human race do anything. We have to take responsibility for our actions because God will hold us accountable.

Religion has nothing to do with evolution. That scientific process took place before we had rational minds (‘homo sapiens’).

Gaudete

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

No one is making ‘ad hominem’ arguments against you.

Maybe we go by different definitions of the phrase ad hominem…

Because under *your *definition, all of the following is perfectly logical, fair argumentation…

Your statements are just nonsensical.

“Hilter was a man of faith”. How absurb!

If he really believed, he wouldn’t have blown his brains out.

You must be getting these ideas from some strange places.

This one’s pretty interesting:

Our nature is such that we fear punishment. If I weren’t afraid of going to jail, I may rob banks for a living.

I don’t think the world wishes to be deceived.

If there is no god, there is no necessity to have a morality. Those who think so are the biggest fools

So, what you are saying is that we are good to our neighbor because that is in our genes?

If that were so, how come there is so much hatred, and violence against our neighbor. And people shoot, rob, steal, abuse, lie, and overall reck havoc on our fellow man.

It seems to say that human evolution was wilfully chosen by amoebas, and single cells beings.

As if an amoeba can chose to be a human. Non-sequitur.

At least you remembered where I live…

More nonesense from the young man from Scranton.

Note: With each quote listed above, I made sure to include the link to the actual post where you first said it. I didn’t change anything, not even the word “absurb”.

This post took me a long time to do. Don’t make me have to do it again. :tsktsk:

 

[mgrfin]

I’ll make it easy for you. Most of them are not ‘argumenta ad hominem’.

Such would be personal attacks on an individual. Generally these were not. I didn’t call you fat, or a pig, or some racial slur. For the most part your posts make no sense, or they are just plain rude, or they have no basis in fact.My responses were direct statements, in contrary to your posts.

For example, for you say that Hilter was a man of faith is horrendous. You say that this man who committed genocide believed in God?

He was a mad-man, not a believer. Your statement is offensive to every right thinking individual, and cannot be allowed to pass. Are you proud of this lie you tried spreading? You seem to take pleasure in being irresponsible.

BTW you failed to respond to my post in the past,

Gaudete

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

I’ll make it easy for you. Most of them are not ‘argumenta ad hominem’.

No, my young nimble fingers capable of looking up sources and definitions quickly will make it easy for you!

Take a look at #1:

(now, I’ll admit a *few *of the statements I took from you don’t fit into either definition, but they were flimsy, baseless statements anyway)

ad ho·mi·nem [ad hom-uh-nuhm‑nem, ahd-] –adjective
1. appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.

---

[Origin: < L: lit, to the man]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Such would be personal attacks on an individual. Generally these were not. I didn’t call you fat, or a pig, or some racial slur. For the most part your posts make no sense, or they are just plain rude, or they have no basis in fact.My responses were direct statements, in contrary to your posts.

In many of my posts, I simply throw your arguments right back at you, except I do it in terms of a different religion.

In other words, saying “man is good because the Christian god made it that way” is as convincing to me as saying “Thor did it” is convincing to you. That’s why I say things like “Because Thor did it” – to show you how unconvincing your arguments are.

For example, for you say that Hilter was a man of faith is horrendous. You say that this man who committed genocide believed in God?

He was a mad-man, not a believer. Your statement is offensive to every right thinking individual, and cannot be allowed to pass. Are you proud of this lie you tried spreading?

Start reading now…

secularhumanism.org/library/fi/murphy_19_2.html

stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html

But before you read up on the worst man who ever believed in God, here’s your latest ad hominem statement:

You seem to take pleasure in being irresponsible.

It is ad hominem because you call me irresponsible simply because I said something which *you *thought was absurd – that Hitler was a man of faith.

 

[mgrfin]

It is ad hominem because you call me irresponsible simply because I said something which *you *thought was absurd – that Hitler was a man of faith.

It is not simply me. The world thinks Hitler was a madman. Your statement is purely absurd, and has nothing to do with what I think.

Hitler prayed? Hitler attended Church? Hitler led a sainted life? Hitler said he was religious, and believed in God?("Mein Kampf).
Absolutely not.

Your statement is hurtful to masses of people. Besides the six million Jews that he slaughtered, he ordered his army in the frozen wasteland of Russia where 1 million of his finest of Gernan youth froze to death. He wrecked havoc and mayhem on humanity. Yet, you mention him as though he is someone who should be imitated and admired.

Admit when you are wrong. No decent person is going to agree with you.

gaudete

You are good at copying people. A monkey can do that. When you have something of value to say, I will pay attention.

Gaudete

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

It is not simply me. The world thinks Hitler was a madman. Your statement is purely absurd, and has nothing to do with what I think.

Hitler prayed? Hitler attended Church? Hitler led a sainted life? Hitler said he was religious, and believed in God?("Mein Kampf).
Absolutely not.

Your statement is hurtful to masses of people. Besides the six million Jews that he slaughtered, he ordered his army in the frozen wasteland of Russia where 1 million of his finest of Gernan youth froze to death. He wrecked havoc and mayhem on humanity. Yet, you mention him as though he is someone who should be imitated and admired.

Admit when you are wrong. No decent person is going to agree with you.

Yes, Hitler *was *a madman. I never *said *he was a saintly good man, mind you. I merely said he was a *faithful *man who believed in a god!

What *made *him a madman??? Let’s think…

I know! :newidea:

HIS FAITH!!! His particular faith was absurd, misguided, bigoted, and (just to flatter you) unCatholic. BUT NEVERTHELESS…

HITLER’S FAITH IN A GOD, NOT ATHEISM, MADE HIM A MADMAN!

For the love of *your *God (who isn’t bigoted and evil like Hitler’s “God”), read the links I gave you! Please!!!

You are good at copying people. A monkey can do that. When you have something of value to say, I will pay attention.

Ordinarily, I’d make a funny, sarcastic statement to deride the insult you just gave me, but instead I’ll say this:

You will never find the value in anything I say unless you *first *pay attention – which sadly I doubt you have ever really done.

 

[mgrfin]

You’re hoping that I won’t pay attention to you, but let you run the thread.

Hitler was not a man of faith. Then you switch it to say he was a "faithful’ man. Yeah, he was determined to resolve the Jewish question.

I haven’t read your links, and won’t. I get more satisfaction at doing other things…

Hitler was a psychotic killer. As many as 12 million lost their lives because of his madness. Germany was essentially destroyed in order for the war to end. His concentration camps pocked mark Europe.

It was a period of our history for which there is nothing but shame. His faith was not the reason for his madness. He took drugs each day to keep him balanced.

You keep demanding attention. Large bold print, assine statements are indicative that you are looking for attention.

I’m outta here, and may not come back. Let others put up with your childishness.

Gaudete

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed.

Thanks to all who have participated.