What I think about hell

[WesleyF]

I’ve been thinking a LOT recently - about hell.

1. Why did God make hell?
2. God is love. So how can he allow people to be tormented in hell forever?
3. And why torment forever? Why not torment in “proportion” to the amount of sins committed?

These questions were going through my mind.

Here is what I think. I want you people to give me your feedback on it.

Since God is eternal, every sin we commit is an eternal offense against God, as though we were hurting him throughout eternity. Justice requires that such a crime should be punished. The answer is eternal punishment, or hell.

Without the atoning sacrifice of Christ, we would all be in hell. However, Christ sacrificed himself for the sake of our sins. His sacrifice is eternal (once for all). It has it’s effect for eternity.

Therefore, when we become one in Christ, we partake in his eternal sacrifice and therefore avoid hell. Those who don’t become one in Christ, either in this life or after (for those who don’t know him in this life), are left to do it on their own, thus they suffer eternally.

 

[duffyk4]

I’ve thought the same thing. Wouldn’t it be more just for someone to simply cease to exist than to be tormented forever?

I cannot possibly imagine the concept of being tortured for ALL ETERNITY, with no escape, no hope, and nothing on the horizon for you except more. Not even death can pull you free.

I cannot imagine anyone deserving that, or anyone putting someone in such a place. It seems better to simply cease to exist and become dust.

 

[Apollos]

I’ve been thinking a LOT recently - about hell.

1. Why did God make hell?
2. God is love. So how can he allow people to be tormented in hell forever?
3. And why torment forever? Why not torment in “proportion” to the amount of sins committed?

God did not exactly make hell. Hell is the outer darkness (Matthew 8:12), and darkness is not something that can be *made *exactly but is just an absence of something else.

But as for allowing people to go there, well, some people want to go there - and forcing them to go to heaven would be … well … hell for them I guess! But if people want no part of God then God can only respect that wish and let them go. God is love, but if someone doesn’t want his love, and wants to be tormented forever, then it’s the same answer.

There are degrees of suffering in hell, just as there are degrees of happiness in heaven. But time works differently in the afterlife. Once you have made up your mind, in a final and absolute way, you will never want to change your mind and go to the other place.

 

[choy]

God did not exactly make hell. Hell is the outer darkness (Matthew 8:12), and darkness is not something that can be *made *exactly but is just an absence of something else.

God did not make hell, the same way God did not make Satan. God made angels who chose then chose to rebel against God, and became devils by their own choice. hell is also a choice not only by these angels, but by every human soul

But as for allowing people to go there, well, some people want to go there - and forcing them to go to heaven would be … well … hell for them I guess! But if people want no part of God then God can only respect that wish and let them go. God is love, but if someone doesn’t want his love, and wants to be tormented forever, then it’s the same answer.

i guess your perception of heaven or hell is not the correct one. hell is spiritual death. if one wants to go to hell, he will go to hell because wanting to go to hell means you do not want to be with God. and if you are separated from God then you are in hell. heaven and hell are not places you choose to go to, like say Los Angeles or New York. if you become one with God through Jesus Christ through His Church, then you are in heaven. if you are separated from God, then you are in hell. hell will always be a painful place, even if you wanted to go there it wouldn’t make it pleasant.

There are degrees of suffering in hell, just as there are degrees of happiness in heaven. But time works differently in the afterlife. Once you have made up your mind, in a final and absolute way, you will never want to change your mind and go to the other place.

its not for a lack of wanting to change your mind, but the lack of ability to do so. once you enter the afterlife and you have set yourself apart from God, it would be impossible for yourself to go to Him

 

[choy]

I’ve been thinking a LOT recently - about hell.

1. Why did God make hell?

read previous posts, God did not make hell. hell is a result of choices

1. God is love. So how can he allow people to be tormented in hell forever?

this is a consequence of our free will, not God’s love. those in hell are tormented because they are separated permanently from God. God still loves them, but because they have turned away from God they cannot see God nor feel His love, thus the torment

1. And why torment forever? Why not torment in “proportion” to the amount of sins committed?

hell is not a punishment, like prison
think of it this way, if a child plays with fire and the dad tells the child not to play with fire and the child plays with fire anyway and gets burned, is the burn a punishment of the dad on the child for playing with fire? hell is the same way. its not punishment in that sense of the word. i would think that purgatory is more of a punishment, and that after we’ve paid for our sins we are released from prison. hell is a final place, because you have permanently separated yourself from God then you suffer those consequences. and there’s no turning back

These questions were going through my mind.

Here is what I think. I want you people to give me your feedback on it.

Since God is eternal, every sin we commit is an eternal offense against God, as though we were hurting him throughout eternity. Justice requires that such a crime should be punished. The answer is eternal punishment, or hell.

Without the atoning sacrifice of Christ, we would all be in hell. However, Christ sacrificed himself for the sake of our sins. His sacrifice is eternal (once for all). It has it’s effect for eternity.

Therefore, when we become one in Christ, we partake in his eternal sacrifice and therefore avoid hell. Those who don’t become one in Christ, either in this life or after (for those who don’t know him in this life), are left to do it on their own, thus they suffer eternally.

this is a good thing to think about. i think my priest had a homily that quite close to what you just said

 

[AntiTheist]

if one wants to go to hell, he will go to hell because wanting to go to hell means you do not want to be with God.

Ok, there are a few things going on here that we need to untangle. In the first place, there’s the question of what hell is exactly. Some claim it is a place of eternal torture and pain. Others claim it is merely separation from god. Others claim that eternal separation from god is the worst kind of torture and pain ever.

Right now, I’m “separate” from god because I don’t believe in any gods. It’s not painful. It’s downright pleasant, to be honest. But from what I’ve read, hell is some kind of permanent separation from god – and is thus supposed to “hurt” more than my current separation from god.

If hell is just like this life, then I would be fine with that for all of eternity. But apparently, it’s going to be a lot more unpleasant. So if it’s going to be unpleasant, I sure as hell don’t want to go there.

But you can’t logically say that I “want” to go to hell – in any sense – unless I first actually think that there’s a reasonably good chance that the place actually exists and that my actions will send me there. It’s ridiculous to say that “people’s choices send them to hell” or that “people choose to go to hell” when people have no idea whether or not there’s a hell and whether or not a specific action will send them there.

What if the one, true religion turns out to be the Norse religion, and you don’t get to go to Valhalla because you don’t die with a sword in your hand? Would the Norse gods be correct in saying that you clearly wanted to go to Niffelheim (or Hel)?

Now, if the Norse gods appeared before all people and announced that the only way to get into Valhalla is to die with a sword in your hand, then your deliberate choice not to die with a sword in your hand would indeed be tantamount to wanting to go to Niffelheim/Hel.

But without knowing that there’s a reasonably good chance that any of those mythological places are real, no one could say that you “wanted” to go anywhere in particular. In the exact same way, you cannot claim that anyone “wants” to go to hell because even if hell is real, we don’t have sufficient knowledge for any decision to be tantamount to desire.

The apologist argument becomes even more ludicrous when you consider some of the things considered as “sins” in most forms of Christianity. The idea that one could experience eternal pain simply for looking at a person with “lust in the heart” is utterly insane. Equally insane is the idea that one could go to hell for various other so-called offenses that harm no one: not believing in god, not worshipping god, masturbation, using protection during intercourse, having sex in a loving relationship that occurs outside of marriage, having homosexual sex with a willing partner, etc.

Frankly, if a god exists who is evil enough to have set up a system whereby victimless crimes (which no one could possibly know are “crimes”) are sufficient to result in an eternity of torment – or, to use the new apologist word-game I’ve recently learned, if this god’s “nature” is so twisted and evil that this god can only act in such a way so as to set up a system whereby thought crimes are sufficient to result in an eternity of torment – then I’d prefer not to worship such a monster, and I would indeed prefer to be separated from this creature for all of eternity.

Luckily, there’s no evidence that this god – or any other god – exists.

 

[Desertsailor]

Right now, I’m “separate” from god because I don’t believe in any gods. It’s not painful. It’s downright pleasant, to be honest. But from what I’ve read, hell is some kind of permanent separation from god – and is thus supposed to “hurt” more than my current separation from god.

If hell is just like this life, then I would be fine with that for all of eternity. But apparently, it’s going to be a lot more unpleasant. So if it’s going to be unpleasant, I sure as hell don’t want to go there.

Right now while you are still alive you have God’s protection and help. That’s why you are happy. If God withdrew his help and his guardian angel who protects you 24/7 you wouldn’t be happy at all. The devil would either use you or kill you. The reason we don’t feel the true heat of the sun is because God made the atmosphere to protect us. When we die there is no atmosphere and God himself is much hotter than the sun.

 

[Ahimsa]

Right now, I’m “separate” from god because I don’t believe in any gods.

No one is separate from God, including atheists.

 

[Tomster]

Ok, there are a few things going on here that we need to untangle. In the first place, there’s the question of what hell is exactly. Some claim it is a place of eternal torture and pain. Others claim it is merely separation from god. Others claim that eternal separation from god is the worst kind of torture and pain ever.

Right now, I’m “separate” from god because I don’t believe in any gods. It’s not painful. It’s downright pleasant, to be honest. But from what I’ve read, hell is some kind of permanent separation from god – and is thus supposed to “hurt” more than my current separation from god.

If hell is just like this life, then I would be fine with that for all of eternity. But apparently, it’s going to be a lot more unpleasant. So if it’s going to be unpleasant, I sure as hell don’t want to go there.

But you can’t logically say that I “want” to go to hell – in any sense – unless I first actually think that there’s a reasonably good chance that the place actually exists and that my actions will send me there. It’s ridiculous to say that “people’s choices send them to hell” or that “people choose to go to hell” when people have no idea whether or not there’s a hell and whether or not a specific action will send them there.

What if the one, true religion turns out to be the Norse religion, and you don’t get to go to Valhalla because you don’t die with a sword in your hand? Would the Norse gods be correct in saying that you clearly wanted to go to Niffelheim (or Hel)?

Now, if the Norse gods appeared before all people and announced that the only way to get into Valhalla is to die with a sword in your hand, then your deliberate choice not to die with a sword in your hand would indeed be tantamount to wanting to go to Niffelheim/Hel.

But without knowing that there’s a reasonably good chance that any of those mythological places are real, no one could say that you “wanted” to go anywhere in particular. In the exact same way, you cannot claim that anyone “wants” to go to hell because even if hell is real, we don’t have sufficient knowledge for any decision to be tantamount to desire.

The apologist argument becomes even more ludicrous when you consider some of the things considered as “sins” in most forms of Christianity. The idea that one could experience eternal pain simply for looking at a person with “lust in the heart” is utterly insane. Equally insane is the idea that one could go to hell for various other so-called offenses that harm no one: not believing in god, not worshipping god, masturbation, using protection during intercourse, having sex in a loving relationship that occurs outside of marriage, having homosexual sex with a willing partner, etc.

Frankly, if a god exists who is evil enough to have set up a system whereby victimless crimes (which no one could possibly know are “crimes”) are sufficient to result in an eternity of torment – or, to use the new apologist word-game I’ve recently learned, if this god’s “nature” is so twisted and evil that this god can only act in such a way so as to set up a system whereby thought crimes are sufficient to result in an eternity of torment – then I’d prefer not to worship such a monster, and I would indeed prefer to be separated from this creature for all of eternity.

Luckily, there’s no evidence that this god – or any other god – exists.

A cogent philosophical argument for the existence of Hell can be drawn from the consensus of mankind that there must be a place where criminals receive their just punishment in the next world. This belief is so general, so definite, and so clearly demanded by reason that it must be true.

Society and the moral order could not exist without the belief in Hell, and it is probably on this account that all nations have clung to this belief despite its terrors. Those individuals who deny the existence of Hell are mostly atheists, distinguished neither for learning nor purity of life. Wherever conscience is allowed to speak, it voices the firm conviction that God will punish the wicked and reward the just in the world beyond. St. Chysostom aptly observes: " If those who argue against Hell would embrace virtue, they would soon be convinced of its existence."

 

[Ahimsa]

A cogent philosophical argument for the existence of Hell can be drawn from the consensus of mankind that there must be a place where criminals receive their just punishment in the next world. This belief is so general, so definite, and so clearly demanded by reason that it must be true.

Well, the real issue is not a state of just punishment in the next world. The real issue is the duration of said punishment. Not all traditions speak of an ‘eternal hell’ in the traditional, orthodox Christian sense.

 

[Tomster]

Well, the real issue is not a state of just punishment in the next world. The real issue is the duration of said punishment. Not all traditions speak of an ‘eternal hell’ in the traditional, orthodox Christian sense.

Well, there are Traditions and there are traditions.

In consequence of the erroneous teaching of Origen, the Church early in her history defined the eternity of Hell as an article of faith. The dogma of eternal punishment is clearly contained in the Old Testament, Daniel 12:2, and the New Testament speaks repeatedly of an eternal and inextinguishable fire. One clear example of this is Revelation 20:10.

St. Augustine has pointed out that there is no stronger argument for the eternity of Hell than the fact that Scripture compares it in respect of duration to Heaven. This reasoning is confirmed by the Biblical teaching that the fate of every man is irrevocably sealed at death. That there is no hope of salvation for the wicked in Hell may be concluded from our Savior’s dictum, “It were better for him if that man had never been born.” (Matthew 26:24)

 

[Ahimsa]

Well, there are Traditions and there are traditions.

In consequence of the erroneous teaching of Origen, the Church early in her history defined the eternity of Hell as an article of faith. The dogma of eternal punishment is clearly contained in the Old Testament, Daniel 12:2, and the New Testament speaks repeatedly of an eternal and inextinguishable fire. One clear example of this is Revelation 20:10.

St. Augustine has pointed out that there is no stronger argument for the eternity of Hell than the fact that Scripture compares it in respect of duration to Heaven. This reasoning is confirmed by the Biblical teaching that the fate of every man is irrevocably sealed at death. That there is no hope of salvation for the wicked in Hell may be concluded from our Savior’s dictum, “It were better for him if that man had never been born.” (Matthew 26:24)

All that may be true, but it is not Church doctrine that hell will definitely be populated by at least one human.

 

[TheDoctor]

What if the one, true religion turns out to be the Norse religion, and you don’t get to go to Valhalla because you don’t die with a sword in your hand? Would the Norse gods be correct in saying that you clearly wanted to go to Niffelheim (or Hel)?

Now, if the Norse gods appeared before all people and announced that the only way to get into Valhalla is to die with a sword in your hand, then your deliberate choice not to die with a sword in your hand would indeed be tantamount to wanting to go to Niffelheim/Hel.

But without knowing that there’s a reasonably good chance that any of those mythological places are real, no one could say that you “wanted” to go anywhere in particular.

Invinceable Ignorance. When I die and face Odin, he will know that I was not taught the true religion and that if I had only opened my mind to the truth, I would have been saved. Hopefully he sends me to Purgahalla with a sword so I can fight my way in. Exactly the same thing that happens when an atheist dies and sees Jesus…

 

[rwoehmke]

The apologist argument becomes even more ludicrous when you consider some of the things considered as “sins” in most forms of Christianity. The idea that one could experience eternal pain simply for looking at a person with “lust in the heart” is utterly insane. Equally insane is the idea that one could go to hell for various other so-called offenses that harm no one: not believing in god, not worshipping god, masturbation, using protection during intercourse, having sex in a loving relationship that occurs outside of marriage, having homosexual sex with a willing partner, etc.

Why is it that a refusal to believe in God is so often coupled up with justification of “pelvic” sins? One rarely sees a negation of God’s existence with justification for gluttony, idolatry, sloth, greed, envy, or pride.

 

[Ahimsa]

Invinceable Ignorance. When I die and face Odin, he will know that I was not taught the true religion and that if I had only opened my mind to the truth, I would have been saved. Hopefully he sends me to Purgahalla with a sword so I can fight my way in. Exactly the same thing that happens when an atheist dies and sees Jesus…

Jesus will give the atheist a sword?

 

[JohnCS]

Now, if the Norse gods appeared before all people and announced that the only way to get into Valhalla is to die with a sword in your hand, then your deliberate choice not to die with a sword in your hand would indeed be tantamount to wanting to go to Niffelheim/Hel.

The problem with this argument is that the “True Religion’s” God did come down to Earth and did tell us what we needed to do… you and many others do make the “deliberate choice” not to follow Him. My family and I will be praying for you my friend.

God bless,

John

 

[AntiTheist]

A cogent philosophical argument for the existence of Hell can be drawn from the consensus of mankind that there must be a place where criminals receive their just punishment in the next world. This belief is so general, so definite, and so clearly demanded by reason that it must be true.

Are you seriously attempting an argumentum ad populum here? “Most people believe X; therefore, X is true.” That’s utterly ridiculous. Most people once thought that the earth was flat, too.

Society and the moral order could not exist without the belief in Hell, and it is probably on this account that all nations have clung to this belief despite its terrors.

You seriously think that a society and a moral order couldn’t exist without belief in hell?

I would submit that people who behave well because they fear some kind of eternal punishment are not good people at all – the truly good people do good because they see the positive benefits of goodness, and they will not care if they are rewarded for their deeds.

TheDoctor:

Invinceable Ignorance. When I die and face Odin, he will know that I was not taught the true religion and that if I had only opened my mind to the truth, I would have been saved. Hopefully he sends me to Purgahalla with a sword so I can fight my way in. Exactly the same thing that happens when an atheist dies and sees Jesus…

Well, if that’s the case, then I have nothing to fear when I die, and there’s absolutely no reason for me to follow your religion.

Marcus Aurelius said, and I paraphrase, lead a good life: if the gods are just, they will reward you regardless of whether you were devout; if the gods are unjust, then you should not worship them anyway; if there are no gods, your noble deeds will live on in the minds of those you loved.

That just about says it all.

Ahimsa:

Jesus will give the atheist a sword?

Hahaha. Coolest afterlife ever.

JohnCS:

The problem with this argument is that the “True Religion’s” God did come down to Earth and did tell us what we needed to do… you and many others do make the “deliberate choice” not to follow Him.

So you say – or rather, so say a bunch of ancient manuscripts of unknown authorship written decades after supposed events that provide fantastic accounts of a man about whom no contemporary records or eyewitness accounts exist.

The Hindus claim that Krishna visited the earth in a bunch of forms, and he has a different message. Various other “godmen” have been claimed throughout time as well.

I wouldn’t say that it’s clear and unambiguous that any of these gods are real. As such, our level of knowledge is such that no one can “want” to go to any particular afterlife on the basis of actions. As such, I apparently qualify for that “incincible ignorance” thing, and I don’t have to bother at all with your religion.

But hey – you pray for me, and I’ll think for you.

 

[TheDoctor]

Jesus will give the atheist a sword?

No my friend. The atheist will plead invincible ignorance. The rest is up to God who look into their heart and judge.

 

[to_seek]

I’ve been thinking a LOT recently - about hell.

1. Why did God make hell?
2. God is love. So how can he allow people to be tormented in hell forever?
3. And why torment forever? Why not torment in “proportion” to the amount of sins committed?

These questions were going through my mind.

Here is what I think. I want you people to give me your feedback on it.

Since God is eternal, every sin we commit is an eternal offense against God, as though we were hurting him throughout eternity. Justice requires that such a crime should be punished. The answer is eternal punishment, or hell.

Without the atoning sacrifice of Christ, we would all be in hell. However, Christ sacrificed himself for the sake of our sins. His sacrifice is eternal (once for all). It has it’s effect for eternity.

Therefore, when we become one in Christ, we partake in his eternal sacrifice and therefore avoid hell. Those who don’t become one in Christ, either in this life or after (for those who don’t know him in this life), are left to do it on their own, thus they suffer eternally.

Hell was created by God, soly because when the great battle in the heavens took place between Satan who once was most favoured by God, and God Himself, and the battle was won of course by God, Satan and the angels with him had to be banished. Hell was created for them, not for us. We humans were always intended to live in the original Garden of Eden fellowshipping with God. Unfortunately we were tempted by the famous serpent via Adam and Eve and thus we too were banished. Now Hell is a place where we too can end up in by our own choice, if we do not accept Jesus great Sacrifice and His gift to all men of salvation. Now the RC Church has other beliefs according to tradition etc that follow with this. God Himself never intended for Hell to exist. I hope this helps you. From ts.

 

[JohnCS]

JohnCS: So you say – or rather, so say a bunch of ancient manuscripts of unknown authorship written decades after supposed events that provide fantastic accounts of a man about whom no contemporary records or eyewitness accounts exist.

The Hindus claim that Krishna visited the earth in a bunch of forms, and he has a different message. Various other “godmen” have been claimed throughout time as well.

I wouldn’t say that it’s clear and unambiguous that any of these gods are real. As such, our level of knowledge is such that no one can “want” to go to any particular afterlife on the basis of actions. As such, I apparently qualify for that “incincible ignorance” thing, and I don’t have to bother at all with your religion.

But hey – you pray for me, and I’ll think for you.

Thank you for the offer, but it seems that you need to do more thinking for yourself. Thinking is supposed to be a search for Truth, and you seem to have a need for more thinking to get there. Making that snide comment about thinking only serves to prove your ignorance of the Catholic faith. It also shows why pride is the deadliest of sins. To have so much “faith” in your ability to think, that you believe you are smarter than God and all of the intellectual giants that believed in His existance through out history as well as those alive today, is simply astounding.

God bless,

John