What I think about hell

[Tomster]

Are you seriously attempting an argumentum ad populum here? “Most people believe X; therefore, X is true.” That’s utterly ridiculous. Most people once thought that the earth was flat, too.

You seriously think that a society and a moral order couldn’t exist without belief in hell?

I would submit that people who behave well because they fear some kind of eternal punishment are not good people at all – the truly good people do good because they see the positive benefits of goodness, and they will not care if they are rewarded for their deeds.

TheDoctor: Well, if that’s the case, then I have nothing to fear when I die, and there’s absolutely no reason for me to follow your religion.

Marcus Aurelius said, and I paraphrase, lead a good life: if the gods are just, they will reward you regardless of whether you were devout; if the gods are unjust, then you should not worship them anyway; if there are no gods, your noble deeds will live on in the minds of those you loved.

That just about says it all.

Ahimsa: Hahaha. Coolest afterlife ever.

JohnCS: So you say – or rather, so say a bunch of ancient manuscripts of unknown authorship written decades after supposed events that provide fantastic accounts of a man about whom no contemporary records or eyewitness accounts exist.

The Hindus claim that Krishna visited the earth in a bunch of forms, and he has a different message. Various other “godmen” have been claimed throughout time as well.

I wouldn’t say that it’s clear and unambiguous that any of these gods are real. As such, our level of knowledge is such that no one can “want” to go to any particular afterlife on the basis of actions. As such, I apparently qualify for that “incincible ignorance” thing, and I don’t have to bother at all with your religion.

But hey – you pray for me, and I’ll think for you.

Could human reason, unaided by divine revelation, in all rigor of logic, prove the existence of eternal punishment? Possibly not. In a discussion which involves the appreciation of moral values, it is always difficult to construct an argument so compelling as to leave no loophole for doubt in those who are strongly averse to a particular conclusion.

In the case of all revealed doctrines, human reason can at least always show that they contain nothing contrary to right reason. In the case of the doctrine of Hell, human reason can undoubtably go much further. The human mind distinctly suggests, if perhaps it does not irresistibly prove, the necessity of an eternal sanction for good and evil. All weight of argument is really on one side, and the objections raised against the eternity of hell can be shown not to be the dictates of reason, but rather a darkening of the reason by feeling and sentiment. Human imagination is indeed appalled by the thought of endless suffering, there is an instinctive recoil in the whole sensitive part of man from the picture of endless sorrow, but these spontaneous emotions of our nature are a very unsatisfactory guide to follow in matters of reason.

 

[rick43235]

Marcus Aurelius said, and I paraphrase, lead a good life: if the gods are just, they will reward you regardless of whether you were devout; if the gods are unjust, then you should not worship them anyway; if there are no gods, your noble deeds will live on in the minds of those you loved.

Oh…I like that.

 

[skeyes]

But there is more to it than “leading a good life”. In our journey, we get to experience the wonderful, fantastic and all encompassing love of Jesus. It requires an answer. We must decide which way we go. Do we seek Him now or do we deny Him and hope that the gods are just? We know our God is just, but we also know that we are called to much more than leading a good life. We are totally being set aside for the “best”. That “best” is being Jesus here on earth by being in Him. We are in Him by our Baptism and by participating in the Sacraments. We are in Him by our continous cry of “yes” to His call to holiness, righteousness and charity.

In Christ,

Stan

 

[clmowry]

Why is it that a refusal to believe in God is so often coupled up with justification of “pelvic” sins? One rarely sees a negation of God’s existence with justification for gluttony, idolatry, sloth, greed, envy, or pride.

You noticed that too. So it’s not just me.

Chuck

 

[Desertsailor]

Hell was created by God, soly because when the great battle in the heavens took place between Satan who once was most favoured by God, and God Himself, and the battle was won of course by God, Satan and the angels with him had to be banished. Hell was created for them, not for us. We humans were always intended to live in the original Garden of Eden fellowshipping with God. Unfortunately we were tempted by the famous serpent via Adam and Eve and thus we too were banished. Now Hell is a place where we too can end up in by our own choice, if we do not accept Jesus great Sacrifice and His gift to all men of salvation. Now the RC Church has other beliefs according to tradition etc that follow with this. God Himself never intended for Hell to exist. I hope this helps you. From ts.

God didn’t create hell.

 

[AntiTheist]

It also shows why pride is the deadliest of sins. To have so much “faith” in your ability to think, that you believe you are smarter than God and all of the intellectual giants that believed in His existance through out history as well as those alive today, is simply astounding.

For the record, I don’t think I’m “smarter” than the historical intellectuals who believed in gods. I think I have access to a lot more evidence than they did, in the first place, and I think that on this one particular issue I am more correctly applying critical thinking and skepticism, in the second place.

Smart people can be wrong about some things, you know – that smart people believed in X is no argument that X is true. Cults, for example, tend to attract bright people. That’s not evidence that the claims of cult leaders are true.

rwoehmke:

Why is it that a refusal to believe in God is so often coupled up with justification of “pelvic” sins? One rarely sees a negation of God’s existence with justification for gluttony, idolatry, sloth, greed, envy, or pride.

I was going to let this childish comment pass without notice, but since someone else wants to goad me into responding to it, I’ll indulge you.

I chose a handful of sexual examples because of the universal nature of sexuality and I think that on the point of sexual morality in particular, the “moral” rules of various Western religions are at their most ridiculous and abominably anti-life. I freely admit that this is a value judgment, and I’d be happy to discuss it either here or on another thread.

There’s this tendency among believers to say, “Oh, see that? He’s just an atheist because he wants to sin! He wants to have sex!” Even if this kind of juvenile response happened to be true, it wouldn’t invalidate my logical arguments.

skeyes:

Do we seek Him now or do we deny Him and hope that the gods are just? We know our God is just, but we also know that we are called to much more than leading a good life.

If your god is just, then he’s not going to punish someone who sincerely does not believe for the reason of not having sufficient evidence to think that a god exists.

If your god would do something like that, then he’s not the kind of being who deserves worship.

Personally, I’m of the opinion that no god is real because there’s no good evidence for any of them.

 

[Apollos]

Personally, I’m of the opinion that no god is real because there’s no good evidence for any of them.

Anti, you bring up an interesting issue.

At the risk of redirecting this thread, would you mind proving to me that you are not a bot?

 

[AndrewRaZ]

Right now, I’m “separate” from god because I don’t believe in any gods. It’s not painful. It’s downright pleasant, to be honest. But from what I’ve read, hell is some kind of permanent separation from god – and is thus supposed to “hurt” more than my current separation from god.

AntiTheist,

I’m not a philosopher, nor a theologian, so this is my humble attempt to explain why you can say that you are happy, or more accurately to what you said, that your separation from God is ‘downright pleasant.’ At least, that was my original intention. I fear it rather dissolved into a mess. Enough of a mess that it takes two posts to say it all. Hopefully I make some sense.

First: there is no separation from God in this life.
In Scripture, we have a few verses that point to this. I will present those below.

Second: Love is not an emotion. Rather, it is an action. The emotion usually associated with “love” is affection. Love, on the other hand, is an action resulting in the free will, which works for the benefit of another, a giving of self. Love need not be paired with affection at all. We need not like (have affection for) someone to love them, and we can like someone we do not love. Love, however, transcends emotions, and acts regardless. For instance, a husband or wife who respects his spouse enough to respect the decision to leave, even if he doesn’t agree with it, because he loves his spouse. Or a parent who has to punish his child for misbehaving.

Third: Heaven is the eternal union with God. Hell is the eternal separation from God. Those are the definitions of the two eternal states upon death (eternal, rather than purgatory, which is transitory, regardless of the duration).

Regardless of whether we agree on the existence of God and Heaven and Hell, I hope we can agree on those definitions, right?

Now, let’s return to the first statement, “there is no separation from God in this life.”

There are a few passages in Scripture which testify to this. Please bear with me, I’ll try to draw them together in a moment.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light [etc.]” (Genesis 1:1-3).

“For he spoke, and it [the world] came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth” (Psalm 33:9).

“Yet he is not far from each one of us. For ‘in him we live and move and have our being’” (Acts 17:27b-28)

“For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39: nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:28-39)

“For in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities – all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Col 1:16-17)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made…And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father” (John 1:1, 3, 14).

(continued below)

 

[AndrewRaZ]

(continued from above)

So from this, what do we know?

We know that God created the world, and ostensibly, the universe–all creation (Genesis 1:1-3, also 4-31).

God spoke, and everything was created. It was a conscious act, deliberate, and not accidental (Psalm 33:9).

We know that God creates us and gives us our being, and our existence (Acts 17:27b-28).

We know that life or death or angelic or spiritual powers, human powers and authorities, distance, nor time can separate us from “the Love of God in Christ Jesus” These things are all external forces; God and self are not included in this list, unless one considers God a ‘spiritual power.’ (Romans 8:28-39).

In Jesus Christ, all things were created, and are sustained (Col 1:16-17).

The Word existed in the beginning (as for what the beginning is, that’s a whole other discussion–see Augustine for that); everything was created through him and nothing was created apart from him; that Jesus became flesh (man) and dwelt among us (John 1:1, 3, 14).

So piecing all this together, we know that God spoke the Word (Jesus) through which all creation began, is sustained, and will continue until it ceases. We are created and sustained by this Word (Jesus), and nothing can separate us from it.

Jesus is the Word of God, which is the deliberate action through which all things were created. One person I spoke to said that Jesus, the Word, is the expression of God’s love. So Jesus would be the expression of the action of loving.

Therefore, being within creation, you are not separated from God, from the expression of his love.

Now we get to the main topic: Hell.

Once our choice is made to accept or reject God at the moment of death, it is irrevocable. The fallen angels, being pure spirits (purely spirit) made an irrevocable choice to reject God. Similarly, when we die, our choice is irrevocable. My guess would be that it’s related to our nature at that point, being purely spirit, and that maybe pure spirits cannot ‘change their minds.’ I don’t know though, and I have to say that’s my current personal theory.

Remembering that love is an action, if we choose to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength, then we choose to be with him. If we choose instead not to love, then we choose the path of death. “He who does not love remains in death” (1 John 3:14). Thus, if we do not have eternal life abiding in us, we go “outside” of God, who is love, life, and light, for lack of a better word. Because there is no deception here, outside this Love, we are perfectly aware of the nature of our choice. This hatred consumes like a “worm [that] does not die, and the fire [that] is not quenched” (Mk 9:47).

Personally, I go so far as to say that Hell is a logical expression of God’s love for us. If we don’t want to be with him, he will never force us to. Because he loves us so much, he will never violate our free will to choose, even if it means we are unhappy because of it. But forcing us to go to heaven regardless of whether we choose to or not would be a violation of that freedom. Again though, that’s my personal opinion.

In all of this, I have to say that this topic in general has ignored the Christian doctrine of judgment. We know judgment is real from Scripture, and that it is not our choice alone whether we go to Heaven or Hell.

I honestly doubt you will find this argument terribly compelling, since I rely on Scripture, which is the Word of God, whom you deny the existence of. I hope, however, that my rambling has made some sense, even if there are gaps in my logic. Hopefully, I have provided a somewhat reasonable explanation as to the nature of Hell, and my understanding of your claim that ‘separation’ from God is ‘downright pleasant.’

If you have any questions or need clarification, please feel free to ask. I will do my best to explain if I can.

 

[Shin]

God didn’t create hell.

‘Oh, what strength has not the fear of Hell to rein us in from sin! To that end has God created Hell. He has created us, and redeemed us by His death, that we might be happy with Him; He has imposed upon us the obligation of hoping for eternal life, and on that account encourages us, by saying that all those who hope in Him shall be saved. For none of them that wait on Thee shall be confounded. [Ps. 24:2] On the other hand, it is His wish and command that we should be in fear of eternal damnation. Some heretics hold, that all who are not in sin should consider themselves as assuredly just and predestined; but these have with reason been condemned by the Council of Trent (Sess. 6 can. 14, 15), because such a presumption is as perilous to salvation as fear is conducive to it. And let Him be your dread, and He shall be a sanctification unto you. [Is. 8:13] The holy fear of God makes man holy. Wherefore David begged of God the grace of fear, in order that fear might destroy in him the inclinations of the flesh. Pierce Thou my flesh with Thy fear. [Ps. 118:120]’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

38 Q. Did all the angels remain good and happy?
A. All the angels did not remain good and happy; many of them sinned and were cast into Hell; and these are called devils or bad angels.

God did not admit the angels into His presence at once. He placed them for awhile on probation, as He did our first parents.

One of these angels was most beautiful, and was named Lucifer, which means light-bearer. He was so perfect that he seems to have forgotten that he received all his beauty and intelligence from God, and not content with what he had, became sinfully proud and wished to be equal to God Himself. For his sin he and all his followers were driven out of Heaven, and God then created Hell, in which they were to suffer for all eternity. This same Lucifer is now called Satan, and more commonly the devil, and those who accompanied him in his fall, devils, or fallen angels.

Baltimore Catechism #4

The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfer, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Apocalypse 20:10

Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for **many, I say to you, shall seek **to enter, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:23-24

For many are called, but** few chosen. **

Mark 20:16

Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: **and few there are that find it! **

Matthew 7:13-14

‘Work out your salvation in fear and trembling!’

Phil 2:12

‘If the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly sinner appear?’

1 St. Peter 4:18

'The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite.;

Ecclesiastes 1:15

"There are many who arrive at the faith, but few that are lead into the heavenly kingdom.’

Pope St. Gregory the Great

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Apocalypse 21:8

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, **that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. **

Galatians 5:19-21

‘Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.’

St. Jerome, Priest, Doctor, Father of the Church

“As the tree falls, so shall it lie.”

The saved are few, and Hell is full of souls. If you do not wish to be one of them, work out your salvation with all your heart.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Ok, there are a few things going on here that we need to untangle. In the first place, there’s the question of what hell is exactly. Some claim it is a place of eternal torture and pain. Others claim it is merely separation from god. Others claim that eternal separation from god is the worst kind of torture and pain ever.

Right now, I’m “separate” from god because I don’t believe in any gods. It’s not painful. It’s downright pleasant, to be honest. But from what I’ve read, hell is some kind of permanent separation from god – and is thus supposed to “hurt” more than my current separation from god.

If hell is just like this life, then I would be fine with that for all of eternity. But apparently, it’s going to be a lot more unpleasant. So if it’s going to be unpleasant, I sure as hell don’t want to go there.

But you can’t logically say that I “want” to go to hell – in any sense – unless I first actually think that there’s a reasonably good chance that the place actually exists and that my actions will send me there. It’s ridiculous to say that “people’s choices send them to hell” or that “people choose to go to hell” when people have no idea whether or not there’s a hell and whether or not a specific action will send them there.

What if the one, true religion turns out to be the Norse religion, and you don’t get to go to Valhalla because you don’t die with a sword in your hand? Would the Norse gods be correct in saying that you clearly wanted to go to Niffelheim (or Hel)?

Now, if the Norse gods appeared before all people and announced that the only way to get into Valhalla is to die with a sword in your hand, then your deliberate choice not to die with a sword in your hand would indeed be tantamount to wanting to go to Niffelheim/Hel.

But without knowing that there’s a reasonably good chance that any of those mythological places are real, no one could say that you “wanted” to go anywhere in particular. In the exact same way, you cannot claim that anyone “wants” to go to hell because even if hell is real, we don’t have sufficient knowledge for any decision to be tantamount to desire.

The apologist argument becomes even more ludicrous when you consider some of the things considered as “sins” in most forms of Christianity. The idea that one could experience eternal pain simply for looking at a person with “lust in the heart” is utterly insane. Equally insane is the idea that one could go to hell for various other so-called offenses that harm no one: not believing in god, not worshipping god, masturbation, using protection during intercourse, having sex in a loving relationship that occurs outside of marriage, having homosexual sex with a willing partner, etc.

Frankly, if a god exists who is evil enough to have set up a system whereby victimless crimes (which no one could possibly know are “crimes”) are sufficient to result in an eternity of torment – or, to use the new apologist word-game I’ve recently learned, if this god’s “nature” is so twisted and evil that this god can only act in such a way so as to set up a system whereby thought crimes are sufficient to result in an eternity of torment – then I’d prefer not to worship such a monster, and I would indeed prefer to be separated from this creature for all of eternity.

Luckily, there’s no evidence that this god – or any other god – exists.

;0D

 

[jtodisco]

Here’s a link to a short, but well spoken commentary by Father Robert Barron on the topic of Hell. It specifically addresses the question of how there can be a hell at the same time that God is love.

wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Fr–Barron-comments-on-Hell.aspx

 

[rwoehmke]

Pelvic reasons aside, it also seems that many atheists ignore, ridicule, denigrate or explain away any evidence presented for the existence of a God, but I have yet to see any proof that God does not exist.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Pelvic reasons aside, it also seems that many atheists ignore, ridicule, denigrate or explain away any evidence presented for the existence of a God, but I have yet to see any proof that God does not exist.

From what I can see, there’s neither proof that a god exists-or does not. Subjective proof, perhaps (of the existence of a god or gods), which in the light of scientific reason can be explained away, from what my untrained mind can understand. I claim no superior intelligence…
But. I hold out hope.
Why, dk. Perhaps it frightens me that*** this*** is really all there is? Yep, that would be it. Why that scares me so, I don’t know. Human nature, I suppose.

 

[Doxiemom]

There is only one unforgivable sin and that, according to Scripture , is blasphemy against the holy spirit.

All other sin can be forgiven. Our God is a Mighty God and we are not privy to all of His ways. What we see as an impossible situation, and an all-likelyhoood of ever lasting damnation , who knows how Jesus can reach a soul.

Having said that, there are always going to be people on either side of this realm, who will turn their back in rage, and do it completely.

 

[Shin]

From what I can see, there’s neither proof that a god exists-or does not. Subjective proof, perhaps (of the existence of a god or gods), which in the light of scientific reason can be explained away, from what my untrained mind can understand. I claim no superior intelligence…
But. I hold out hope.
Why, dk. Perhaps it frightens me that*** this*** is really all there is? Yep, that would be it. Why that scares me so, I don’t know. Human nature, I suppose.

Oh there’s proof alright, look long enough with a good intention and you’ll find it – and much of it right in front of your eyes all along.

 

[Apollos]

From what I can see, there’s neither proof that a god exists-or does not. Subjective proof, perhaps (of the existence of a god or gods), which in the light of scientific reason can be explained away, from what my untrained mind can understand. I claim no superior intelligence…

Phoenix, on a technical note, do you believe there can be a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational?

 

[Chipper]

rwoehmke: I was going to let this childish comment pass without notice,

"Even if this kind of juvenile response happened to be true, it wouldn’t invalidate my logical arguments.

.

If your arguments are so logical then why do you have to resort to insults? If you were truly correct and actually had the answers, then you would be presenting them to us ignoramuses with a little more patience.

Could it be that you really aren’t quite sure after all?

It only comes down to two choices, you either hold a desire to believe or you don’t want to believe.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oh there’s proof alright, look long enough with a good intention and you’ll find it – and much of it right in front of your eyes all along.

There it is!

Put 50% into believing off the 100% you put into denying and you’ll see for yourself.