What if a Catholic sincerely believes that the Catholic Church is wrong about Masturbation?

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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ( CCC )
2352: By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. ‘Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.’ ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of ‘the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved’."

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” 4

The reference to the Magistgerium’s “constant tradition” of opposition to masturbation appears to conflict with Giovanni Cappelli’s findings that the first mention of masturbation in Church documents dated to the sixth century CE.

It would appear that the CCC condemns all pleasure derived from genital stimulations, whether masturbation is continued until orgasm or not.
Here are my Questions:

What happens if a Catholic male has read and has full knowledge of the Catholic Church’s teaching under CCC-2352.

But in good conscience, he still honestly and truly believes that God is NOT GRAVELY offended by ALL sexual acts, and that He will NOT send every male to Hell, for the act of deliberately entertaining sexual thoughts, or for stroking his penis to full erection, (especially if he does not have an orgasm or ejaculates ).

In other words, in plain English, he believes that playing with his penis in moderation, is not gravely offensive to God, and is not equal to masturbation ( if it does not involve orgasm and ejaculation), and therefore is NOT a mortal sin. Perhaps he may consider the act as, at most, a venial sin.

Does this Catholic male have the right to exercise his own good conscience in his relationship to his God, OR is he nevertheless guilty of mortal sin?

If one believes he is nevertheless guilty of mortal sin, then what is the mortal sin? Playing with his penis ( even though he truly believes it is not a moral sin ), or his not believing in or agreeing with the Catholic Church on what constitutes real masturbation?

If he sincerely believes that he is in the state of Grace, and he receives the Eucharist, would God consider that decision a mortal sin or not?

There is a difference between a Catholic person abiding by the laws of the Catholic Church out of fear of going to Hell, OR, on the other hand, having a real and true belief that each and every law of the Catholic Church is correct and is a true representation of the behavior that God wants from all of his creatures on earth.

Can a Catholic person believe that the Catholic Church is wrong on a specific issue, and still remain Catholic, after exercising his own good conscience with his God? Or should he simply find another religion to follow, which coincides better with his own beliefs?

I wonder how many priests and Bishops actually believe that God will send young unmarried males to hell for simply stroking or playing with their erections from time to time in moderation without ejaculating, or for occasionally entertaining sexual thoughts? Am I correct in saying that this is what the Catholic Church teaches?

It seemed that the Catholic Church does not want any males to ever experience the pleasure of having an erection ( even without ejaculation ), until they get married, and then only during sexual intercourse with their wives. Except for the act of sexual intercourse, all males should simply forget that they have a penis and testicles attached to their bodies.

Does the Catholic Church really want and expect its members to believe that God is really so merciless, vengeful and mean?

From JAW642 on Wednesday June 10, 2009 at 08:45 PM
 
JAW642 said:
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ( CCC )
2352: By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. ‘Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.’ ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of ‘the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved’."

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” 4

The reference to the Magistgerium’s “constant tradition” of opposition to masturbation appears to conflict with Giovanni Cappelli’s findings that the first mention of masturbation in Church documents dated to the sixth century CE.

It would appear that the CCC condemns all pleasure derived from genital stimulations, whether masturbation is continued until orgasm or not.
Here are my Questions:

What happens if a Catholic male has read and has full knowledge of the Catholic Church’s teaching under CCC-2352.

But in good conscience, he still honestly and truly believes that God is NOT GRAVELY offended by ALL sexual acts, and that He will NOT send every male to Hell, for the act of deliberately entertaining sexual thoughts, or for stroking his penis to full erection, (especially if he does not have an orgasm or ejaculates ).

In other words, in plain English, he believes that playing with his penis in moderation, is not gravely offensive to God, and is not equal to masturbation ( if it does not involve orgasm and ejaculation), and therefore is NOT a mortal sin. Perhaps he may consider the act as, at most, a venial sin.

Does this Catholic male have the right to exercise his own good conscience in his relationship to his God, OR is he nevertheless guilty of mortal sin?

If one believes he is nevertheless guilty of mortal sin, then what is the mortal sin? Playing with his penis ( even though he truly believes it is not a moral sin ), or his not believing in or agreeing with the Catholic Church on what constitutes real masturbation?

If he sincerely believes that he is in the state of Grace, and he receives the Eucharist, would God consider that decision a mortal sin or not?

There is a difference between a Catholic person abiding by the laws of the Catholic Church out of fear of going to Hell, OR, on the other hand, having a real and true belief that each and every law of the Catholic Church is correct and is a true representation of the behavior that God wants from all of his creatures on earth.

Can a Catholic person believe that the Catholic Church is wrong on a specific issue, and still remain Catholic, after exercising his own good conscience with his God? Or should he simply find another religion to follow, which coincides better with his own beliefs?

I wonder how many priests and Bishops actually believe that God will send young unmarried males to hell for simply stroking or playing with their erections from time to time in moderation without ejaculating, or for occasionally entertaining sexual thoughts? Am I correct in saying that this is what the Catholic Church teaches?

It seemed that the Catholic Church does not want any males to ever experience the pleasure of having an erection ( even without ejaculation ), until they get married, and then only during sexual intercourse with their wives. Except for the act of sexual intercourse, all males should simply forget that they have a penis and testicles attached to their bodies.

Does the Catholic Church really want and expect its members to believe that God is really so merciless, vengeful and mean?

From JAW642 on Wednesday June 10, 2009 at 08:45 PM
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What if, as a Catholic, you truly believe that the church is wrong about stealing?

I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be mean…especially since I DO understand the struggles of sexual sin. But while I might not like what HMC teaches on every subject, but I submit to the authority of men far more learned than myself, and trust that they do, in fact, have my best interest at heart.

When it comes to masturbation, you are taking a gift that God has given you, and using it in an inappropriate and potentially harmful way. What do you think about as you masturbate? Odds are, you’re not contemplating when your next homework assignment is due. You’re probably fantasizing about someone…ie, objectifying that person, and mentally using that person for your own pleasure.

As far as God being mean, no. Not at all. Yes, we will often find ourselves in situations where we are tempted to do something that we know–whether in our heads or our hearts is a sin. When we pray about it, God gives us one of two things…He will either take that temptation away, or He will give us an opportunity to practice the virtue of self control.
 
It kind of sounds like you’re trying to rationalize behaviour or taking some sort of action that the Church teaches is wrong. Like, why would God be so concerned with what might seem like such a “mundane” activity? Well, I don’t know about that.

I started a thread here:

Hypocrite or not?

While the topic is not about masturbation, I did start a thread about whether a person disagreed with church teachings but still obeyed them was a hypocrite. (I have other disagreements with Church teachings but still, I obey them.)

I can understand wanting to be willfully self-willed. It’s much more “fun” that way. But when I personally think of the consequences to my soul and the possible loss of not seeing God or not being in communion with Jesus Christ, well… I’m going to “err” on the side of the Church.
 
Isn’t the purpose of masturbating to achieve an orgasm and ejactulation? At least that is what I have heard. If not, what is the whole point of masturbation?

Anyway, what you want to be is a “cafeteria catholic”. You want to pick and choose what to follow and change what doesn’t fit you. If you believe that in good conscience masturbating if ok, then what is your position on the other teachings of the church, ie contraception,abortion, or the Ten Commandments? Any of these really could be twisted as to appear there is no sin if one belives they are doing it in good conscience. In truth, there is still sin.

:takethat:
 
Disagree or try to justify it all you want; it’s still wrong and the Church condemns this behavior.
 
I know it’s tought, especially in our world and culture. But we have to do the best we can and remember that the Church has 2000 years on each one of us and is guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who ooks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus said so. The Church agrees with Him. Game over.

Masturbation cannot be done without lust. And Lust is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

The question comes down to this (and I apologize for the crude wording) :
Do you let a certain part of your body rule your life? Or let Jesus rule your life? Your decision.
 
A person holding the beliefs stated in the original post needs to realise that the Church has teaching authority given to it by Christ which that person does not have.

If an individual’s interpretation of ‘masturbation’ is different from that of the Church, then, to put it bluntly, it doesn’t matter what label they use. If they indulge in an act that the Church has defined as being wrongful, whatever that act may be called by themselves or by the Church, then they’ve sinned. If they do the act that the Church has defined as being masturbation, then it is a grave and potentially mortal sin.

The Church teaches that deliberately terminating a pregnancy except in a very few extremely restricted circumstances is wrong. Doesn’t matter whether you call it abortion or not - you deliberately terminate a pregnancy with knowledge that the Church views the act as gravely sinful, and while freely consenting, you’ve mortally sinned.
 
LilyM said:
A person holding the beliefs stated in the original post needs to realise that the Church has teaching authority given to it by Christ which that person does not have.
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Agreed.

I like to say that one reason I believe in the Pope is because I am not him and I don’t want the job 😉

One reason I believe in God is because I am not Him and I don’t want the job 🙂
 
^ Hmm do you think God has free will? I wonder what he thinks about being “God”, since he doesn’t have much say in the matter.
 
Jack17 said:
^ Hmm do you think God has free will? I wonder what he thinks about being “God”, since he doesn’t have much say in the matter.
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God has free will. He has chosen to respect ours.

Those who are going to heaven, say to God “Thy will be done”

Those who are going to hell, God says to them “Thy will be done.”
 
JAW642 said:
But in good conscience, he still honestly and truly believes that God is NOT GRAVELY offended
From JAW642 on Wednesday June 10, 2009 at 08:45 PM
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Leaving aside for the moment the extreme rationalization planned out in this post - I offer this:

One cannot have a good conscience that is formed properly AND honestly and truly believe masturbation is moral acceptable. It’s quite that simple. The reasons are complex and I’d suggest seeking out a good priest or moral theologian to determine where the error in your formation is and address it. It’s too complicated to answer in a few posts.
 
Jack17 said:
^ Hmm do you think God has free will? I wonder what he thinks about being “God”, since he doesn’t have much say in the matter.
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Course He does! He didn’t have to create us, He could choose to wipe all of us out (not by flood, though, He promised Noah after all …)
 
JAW642 said:
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ( CCC )
2352: By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. ‘Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.’ ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of ‘the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved’."

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” 4

The reference to the Magistgerium’s “constant tradition” of opposition to masturbation appears to conflict with Giovanni Cappelli’s findings that the first mention of masturbation in Church documents dated to the sixth century CE.

It would appear that the CCC condemns all pleasure derived from genital stimulations, whether masturbation is continued until orgasm or not.
Here are my Questions:

What happens if a Catholic male has read and has full knowledge of the Catholic Church’s teaching under CCC-2352.

But in good conscience, he still honestly and truly believes that God is NOT GRAVELY offended by ALL sexual acts, and that He will NOT send every male to Hell, for the act of deliberately entertaining sexual thoughts, or for stroking his penis to full erection, (especially if he does not have an orgasm or ejaculates ).

In other words, in plain English, he believes that playing with his penis in moderation, is not gravely offensive to God, and is not equal to masturbation ( if it does not involve orgasm and ejaculation), and therefore is NOT a mortal sin. Perhaps he may consider the act as, at most, a venial sin.

Does this Catholic male have the right to exercise his own good conscience in his relationship to his God, OR is he nevertheless guilty of mortal sin?

If one believes he is nevertheless guilty of mortal sin, then what is the mortal sin? Playing with his penis ( even though he truly believes it is not a moral sin ), or his not believing in or agreeing with the Catholic Church on what constitutes real masturbation?

If he sincerely believes that he is in the state of Grace, and he receives the Eucharist, would God consider that decision a mortal sin or not?

There is a difference between a Catholic person abiding by the laws of the Catholic Church out of fear of going to Hell, OR, on the other hand, having a real and true belief that each and every law of the Catholic Church is correct and is a true representation of the behavior that God wants from all of his creatures on earth.

Can a Catholic person believe that the Catholic Church is wrong on a specific issue, and still remain Catholic, after exercising his own good conscience with his God? Or should he simply find another religion to follow, which coincides better with his own beliefs?

I wonder how many priests and Bishops actually believe that God will send young unmarried males to hell for simply stroking or playing with their erections from time to time in moderation without ejaculating, or for occasionally entertaining sexual thoughts? Am I correct in saying that this is what the Catholic Church teaches?

It seemed that the Catholic Church does not want any males to ever experience the pleasure of having an erection ( even without ejaculation ), until they get married, and then only during sexual intercourse with their wives. Except for the act of sexual intercourse, all males should simply forget that they have a penis and testicles attached to their bodies.

Does the Catholic Church really want and expect its members to believe that God is really so merciless, vengeful and mean?

From JAW642 on Wednesday June 10, 2009 at 08:45 PM
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So begins all sin.

So began the first sin - Adam and Eve knew better than God. Eating the fruit was not really all that bad.

So began the Reformation - now the churches that form the remains of the Reformation are progressively abandoning more and more of the truths of the faith and sliding into outright atheism.

God speaks through His Church. Either accept that or leave.

Sound tough? It is in some ways, but in others ways it is a glorious blessing from God that He really does give us an infallible guide through life, for which we should be very grateful.

Stop the excuses. Accept God’s rules and live by them.
 
GodIsGracious said:
It kind of sounds like you’re trying to rationalize behaviour or taking some sort of action that the Church teaches is wrong. Like, why would God be so concerned with what might seem like such a “mundane” activity? Well, I don’t know about that.

I started a thread here:

Hypocrite or not?

While the topic is not about masturbation, I did start a thread about whether a person disagreed with church teachings but still obeyed them was a hypocrite. (I have other disagreements with Church teachings but still, I obey them.)

I can understand wanting to be willfully self-willed. It’s much more “fun” that way. But when I personally think of the consequences to my soul and the possible loss of not seeing God or not being in communion with Jesus Christ, well… I’m going to “err” on the side of the Church.
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I think this could fall under vincible ignorance: the person disagrees with the teaching personally, but doesn’t act on it out of deference to the Church. Refusing to accept “because the Church says so” as the only answer to a question does not make a person a heretic. However, that person should be willing to make the effort to examine the reasoning of the Church thoroughly and pray for wisdom and understanding.
 
Control the masses, control their sexual desires and forge that will to conquer in your name…

So the story goes

Okay so I’m god, and I’m going to make this act feel really good, everything else in nature will also do it, their will be physical and psychological benefits to do it and no consequences to doing it, as whatever is destroyed by this act will be regenerated constantly for the rest of your life…

Woa Woa Woa what do you think your doing? Did I say you could touch that? Just take your hand out of your pants and I might consider not sending you to hell to be tortured forever.

Yea because that story makes alot of sense.
 
Abbadon said:
Yea because that story makes alot of sense.
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Oh, hush, devil! ( 😛 sorry, but with a name like that, how could I resist?)

Makes perfect sense. God could say “Don’t eat snails” (I think He might have on one occasion) and it’d be perfectly acceptable for us to not eat snails. He’s God. He get’s what He wants.

And how exactly is the Church exerting greater control over the masses by pushing forward so unpopular a stance as “Don’t pleasure yourself”? Seems to me they lose more members over such postions than they gain…
 
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