What if a couple disagrees on more kids?

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The Church says it is for a couple to decide if there is serious reasons to use NFP, not yours or anyone else’s idea of what is a serious reason.

Every baby deserves to be wanted. It is sad to think otherwise.
Yes, and every child WOULD be wanted if we were truly a Pro life people. By pretending to want a baby by having sex, why wouldn’t God answer us? You better know what you want BEFORE you ask for it.

As for the use of NFP, you are right. I can not judge another couple’s reasons for using it, but God will. Ultimately He will decide if the reasons are serious or not. It is important that people re evaluate their thinking to see if there might be some selfishness going on. I had some health problems awhile back. My husband was getting ready to deploy. We abstained for 11+ months before one of his deployments and then the 18 months he was gone. We have abstained for long stretches several times in our marriage, sometimes due to circumstances, sometimes due to health. Abstinence can strengthen a marriage instead of kill it if people have the proper attitude. And having children will do the same.
 
On the contrary, depending on the couple doing nothing is a surefire way to get pregnant. The problem is you are disassociating our part in creation from conception. Whenever a person has sex knowing they are (or may be) fertile they are, with full knowledge, engaging in an act whose natural consequence is conception. So, to have sex during ones fertile period is not a non-action either way but actually a positive action towards conceiving. So, to try to claim this is the right path for everyone is to try and convince others that even if they have legitimate reasons for avoiding they should take an action that naturally results in conception, knowing that it naturally results in conception even though they have carefully discerned that doing so would be imprudent because they should just “leave it up to God”. On the contrary, they are not leaving it up to God, but would be putting God to the test by taking such an action. While its true that one does not need to practice NFP, all spouses are called to “responsible” parenthood, which means they need to use their own reason and prudential judgement to discern whether or not it is prudent to have children at any given time, and, if it is not, they are obliged to abstain, whether periodically or completely. It is not ok for either spouse to engage in imprudent behaviour for their own pleasure.
Or, to make it simple, if you aren’t abstaining during fertile times you actually are trying to conceive.

And, as to the “serious” reasons to avoid pregnancy…well, that is highly individual. Up to the conscience of the couple making the decision.

Using the example of avoiding more children to buy a house to get out of a rental I would say is serious. As parents, we have legal, financial, and moral obligations to our existing children. If providing our children with the benefits of home ownership (security and stability, freedom to express themselves on the walls, growing up in the same schools with close friends, a yard to play in with their treehouse, swingsets,etc.) isn’t serious, I don’t know what is.
 
Yes, and every child WOULD be wanted if we were truly a Pro life people.
And especially in this situation discussed here where one spouse wants to have more. The child IS wanted.

7armyrugrats;11045423} I had some health problems awhile back. My husband was getting ready to deploy. We abstained for 11+ months before one of his deployments and then the 18 months he was gone. We have abstained for long stretches several times in our marriage said:
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Yes, God gives us abundant chances to grow in holiness.:yup: Sometimes circumstances (mostly) beyond our control (such as deployment and work situations) bring abstinence into a marriage. Abstaining certainly can be done with the proper attitude. A couple can choose to abstain, but it seems best to me that it be something mutually decided if they are not in a situation where they are separated by distance.
By pretending to want a baby by having sex, why wouldn’t God answer us? You better know what you want BEFORE you ask for it.

As for the use of NFP, you are right. I can not judge another couple’s reasons for using it, but God will. Ultimately He will decide if the reasons are serious or not. It is important that people re evaluate their thinking to see if there might be some selfishness going on…
Sticking with the thread question, one thing that a person can do if he/she wants another child when the spouse doesn’t is be on “stand-by” with NFP. By that, I mean watch the signs and the chart and be aware of the likeliness of fertility–and let the other spouse (the one who claims to not want a child) decide if they are going to participate in marital relations or not. When spouses engage in marital relations then there is the possibility that pregnancy may occur. It would be more of the attitude of permitting the other spouse to abstain rather than pursuing one’s “marital rights” and it would eliminate the situation where abstinence was forced by one spouse against the will of the other. For a spouse who wants another child to do such a thing would require an attitude would require patience and trust. And it would require prayer. It would be unselfish on the part of the one who wants another child to virtually let go of all control of the issue and places it entirely in the hands of the other spouse and God to decide.

This reminds me of Proverbs 15:1 “A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.” Arguing over it brings trouble to a marriage but gentleness and patience could help to soften the spouses’ hearts. If the couple has reached an impasse that might be a way to resolve the conflict.
 
This whole thread, as well as many other threads on NFP and similar topics is just ridiculous. As Catholics we are asked to be “open to life.” This is even what we vow at our Wedding Mass! When did we change it to “open to life when it fits into my planned time or if NFP fails me?” Yes, the Church says we may use NFP if we have SERIOUS REASONS, but I find it hard to believe that having had a certain number of children already and feeling “done,” or wanting to buy a house instead of renting, or only being married for 4 yrs so you aren’t ready yet, or most of the other reasons peole throw out there actually qualify as SERIOUS reasons. When posters talk about a contraceptive mentality, this is what they are speaking of. Many people have said you cannot have a contraceptive mentality while using NFP, and I assure you that not only CAN you, but a large number of NFP’ers do. This in no way says NFP is never necessary. Most of us have used one method or another at some point in our lives. But it should be left to serious–truly serious–reasons and NOT for planned parenthood reasons like “every baby deserves to be planned/wanted/desired.” That is rubbish and a misuse of God’s design for married life and the marital act.

And yes, God does know when we are in over our heads and need a break. He has proven it in my life many times. As long as we trust in His will, it all works out. This means taking the bad (eight miscarriages) along with the good (immense blessings–beyond the obvious ones) and remembering to praise and thank Him everyday.
I agree that a lot of these NFP threads are ridiculous, but not for the same reasons. I think they are ridiculous because no matter how much information a poster provides, either about their own situation, someone else’s, or theoretically, none of us ever has enough information to make any kind of judgment regarding the severity of their situation. To say that “most reasons people give for using NFP” are not serious is both likely untrue as well as uncharitable and beyond the scope of our ability to judge.

There is a reason the Church, in all her wisdom, does not get specific about serious reasons. A couple’s situation is unique, and will be judged by God alone. This is the same reason no one is required to use NFP, even when it might be prudent to do so. I think it’s dangerous and unfair that some reason that it is somehow more virtuous to never use NFP and just take whatever comes. Is it generous? Absolutely. But it is also generous to spend one’s time and effort tirelessly tracking your cycle which can be cumbersome, and giving up intimacy at certain times when you really would rather not, so that whatever children you are blessed with can thrive in a home where there is enough to eat, whose parents are healthy both mentally and physically, and can provide the love and attention they deserve.

Sometimes I think some people can forget that it truly is a sacrifice to practice NFP- instead of nitpicking about whether someone’s reasons are “just” or “serious” or whatever, why not just keep to our own business and recognize that the Church doesn’t presume to know what is in every couple’s hearts or about their individual circumstances, so neither should any of us.
 
Children are a blessing but it is not God who makes a child, couples do. So, to say leave it to God, is not quite correct. The default position is abstinence until the couple comes to an agreement. It does not matter who wants more children, no child should be brought into the world by a reluctant parent, no wife or .husband should be coerced into having another child. That is why mutual respect and trust and communication is so important in a marriage and definitely before making the decision to marry.

Birth control is not the issue here.

👍
 
On the contrary, depending on the couple doing nothing is a surefire way to get pregnant. The problem is you are disassociating our part in creation from conception. Whenever a person has sex knowing they are (or may be) fertile they are, with full knowledge, engaging in an act whose natural consequence is conception. So, to have sex during ones fertile period is not a non-action either way but actually a positive action towards conceiving. So, to try to claim this is the right path for everyone is to try and convince others that even if they have legitimate reasons for avoiding they should take an action that naturally results in conception, knowing that it naturally results in conception even though they have carefully discerned that doing so would be imprudent because they should just “leave it up to God”. On the contrary, they are not leaving it up to God, but would be putting God to the test by taking such an action. While its true that one does not need to practice NFP, all spouses are called to “responsible” parenthood, which means they need to use their own reason and prudential judgement to discern whether or not it is prudent to have children at any given time, and, if it is not, they are obliged to abstain, whether periodically or completely. It is not ok for either spouse to engage in imprudent behaviour for their own pleasure.

👍
 
Sticking with the thread question, one thing that a person can do if he/she wants another child when the spouse doesn’t is be on “stand-by” with NFP. By that, I mean watch the signs and the chart and be aware of the likeliness of fertility–and let the other spouse (the one who claims to not want a child) decide if they are going to participate in marital relations or not. When spouses engage in marital relations then there is the possibility that pregnancy may occur. It would be more of the attitude of permitting the other spouse to abstain rather than pursuing one’s “marital rights” and it would eliminate the situation where abstinence was forced by one spouse against the will of the other. For a spouse who wants another child to do such a thing would require an attitude would require patience and trust. And it would require prayer.

This reminds me of Proverbs 15:1 “A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.” Arguing over it brings trouble to a marriage but gentleness and patience could help to soften the spouses’ hearts. It would be unselfish on the part of the one who wants another child to virtually let go of all control of the issue and places it entirely in the hands of the other spouse and God to decide. If the couple has reached an impasse that might be a way to resolve the conflict.
I think this is probably the best answer to the OP’s original question.
 
I agree that a lot of these NFP threads are ridiculous, but not for the same reasons. I think they are ridiculous because no matter how much information a poster provides, either about their own situation, someone else’s, or theoretically, none of us ever has enough information to make any kind of judgment regarding the severity of their situation. To say that “most reasons people give for using NFP” are not serious is both likely untrue as well as uncharitable and beyond the scope of our ability to judge.

There is a reason the Church, in all her wisdom, does not get specific about serious reasons. A couple’s situation is unique, and will be judged by God alone. This is the same reason no one is required to use NFP, even when it might be prudent to do so. I think it’s dangerous and unfair that some reason that it is somehow more virtuous to never use NFP and just take whatever comes. Is it generous? Absolutely. But it is also generous to spend one’s time and effort tirelessly tracking your cycle which can be cumbersome, and giving up intimacy at certain times when you really would rather not, so that whatever children you are blessed with can thrive in a home where there is enough to eat, whose parents are healthy both mentally and physically, and can provide the love and attention they deserve.

Sometimes I think some people can forget that it truly is a sacrifice to practice NFP- instead of nitpicking about whether someone’s reasons are “just” or “serious” or whatever, why not just keep to our own business and recognize that the Church doesn’t presume to know what is in every couple’s hearts or about their individual circumstances, so neither should any of us.

👍
 
I wanted to add something.

The use of NFP does not preclude being open to life.

I’ve been seriously avoiding for about 4 years. Our relations remain “open to life” each and every time.

If they were closed to life, we’d be using contraceptives. 🙂

Each and every time we have completely trusted God to allow us to decide that my determinations of being fertile or infertile were correct. God designed my body and He allows me to understand how it works. And how it doesn’t work. We are working completely with His design.
 
Who is the head of the home (Ephesians 5) and is the one who needs to make a loving decision for the family when you can not come to agreement? Unless there is a health risk or some other extreme reason to not have kids I think that a wife needs to trust God by trusting her husband’s leading on this matter.
 
I would like to share how my husband and I solved this in our own marriage…

My husband has told me that when we converted and he learned all he could about marriage and NFP and parenthood and Church teachings, he resolved that, as my husband, it is not his place to “deny me” the right to another child if I should desire to have another, unless we experience some kind of hardship or health/medical situation that would require us to prevent pregnancy. He is willing to use NFP, and we do use it in the postpartum period, until I am ready for another child. But he and I both agree that the default position for marital relations is to neither “try” nor “not try” for a pregnancy. Simply living one’s life and enjoying marital relations as a way to show each other our love as often as desire and circumstance will allow, and letting nature take its course and letting God’s will be done. This has resulted in three new pregnancies since our conversion, though only two living babies. This is the default that we have returned to since the recent birth of our fourth living child. We are not practicing any form of NFP right now, but when my fertility begins to return, we probably will begin practicing in order to postpone until the baby is weaned. I may or may not be ready to have another baby at that time, but my husband has already told me a couple weeks ago that since my body bears the greater burden, he will allow me to decide if and when I am ready. And he will let me know if circumstances might restrict us. Other than that, enjoying the babies and trying to be better parents and just being so thankful for the joy of the marital act which helps us so much to overcome our woundedness and our difficulties is the way to go for us. 👍
 
Who is the head of the home (Ephesians 5) and is the one who needs to make a loving decision for the family when you can not come to agreement? Unless there is a health risk or some other extreme reason to not have kids I think that a wife needs to trust God by trusting her husband’s leading on this matter.

Ah yes – Ephesians 5 taken out of context – for the husband to take control and dominate.
 
That’s what you believe? Really??? Where in the Bible or the Catechism leads you to believe that?

Couples co-operate with God in creating life, but if you look at the Creed it’s very clear that we believe in “The Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life.” If you don’t believe The Giver of Life has a hand in making babies, then your beliefs aren’t Catholic or biblical.

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you form in the womb, I knew you.” (That’s God speaking in the first person.)

I agree with you that of course mutual respect and trust and communication is very important both in a marriage and before marriage! But forcing long term abstinence on one’s spouse should not be the default position of a healthy marriage between healthy individuals. Forcing long tem abstinence against his/her wishes hardly seems respectful of one’s marriage partner. People getting married rarely expect they are getting into a situation of long term abstinence when they stand before the altar and promise to unite themselves to each other.
I agree with you. It points to faith and trust in God, as well our understanding and respect for the self-giving nature of marriage where two become one. The theology behind our differing positions reflects much more than our attitude about birth control.
God puts the souls in babies and creates life, yes but other than the Immaculate Conception and any other miracle, God chose to make, a human act has to take place. Yes, God knows everything and everyone but he gives us free will. Children are made by people having sex. We make a choice when we have sex.

If a couple can’t agree on this issue, which is not the best situation, how is it to be resolved until they can come to an agreement? If it is the husband who does not want another child, he could decide to be only with his wife on her infertile days. She may not be happy with that. Does she mislead him as to her fertile days? If the wife does not want another child, does the husband force her to have sex on her fertile days? Both would be terribly wrong.
 
Who is the head of the home (Ephesians 5) and is the one who needs to make a loving decision for the family when you can not come to agreement? Unless there is a health risk or some other extreme reason to not have kids I think that a wife needs to trust God by trusting her husband’s leading on this matter.
Nothing very loving about such an unilateral decision. The Church says it is for the couple to make the decision, not just the husband.
 
Paul Fekete:
Who is the head of the home (Ephesians 5) and is the one who needs to make a loving decision for the family when you can not come to agreement? Unless there is a health risk or some other extreme reason to not have kids I think that a wife needs to trust God by trusting her husband’s leading on this matter.
Nothing very loving about such an unilateral decision. The Church says it is for the couple to make the decision, not just the husband.

Yes —👍
 
Nothing very loving about such an unilateral decision. The Church says it is for the couple to make the decision, not just the husband.
And more than that, Casti Connubi makes it very clear that ephesians 5 is not to be understood as the universal dominance of husband over wife. The wife is not to be treated as though she were a minor or a child, she is also not to give in to everything her husband says just because, in fact, CC makes it clear that sometimes it is the wifes responsibility to refuse to submit to her husband and instead to take over completely from him. It is absolutely wrong and contrary to Church teaching that, no matter what the circumstances, the wife ought to submit to the husband. Such an opinion is contrary to a true understanding of marriage and the marital relationship.
 
On the contrary, depending on the couple doing nothing is a surefire way to get pregnant. The problem is you are disassociating our part in creation from conception. Whenever a person has sex knowing they are (or may be) fertile they are, with full knowledge, engaging in an act whose natural consequence is conception. So, to have sex during ones fertile period is not a non-action either way but actually a positive action towards conceiving. So, to try to claim this is the right path for everyone is to try and convince others that even if they have legitimate reasons for avoiding they should take an action that naturally results in conception, knowing that it naturally results in conception even though they have carefully discerned that doing so would be imprudent because they should just “leave it up to God”. On the contrary, they are not leaving it up to God, but would be putting God to the test by taking such an action. While its true that one does not need to practice NFP, all spouses are called to “responsible” parenthood, which means they need to use their own reason and prudential judgement to discern whether or not it is prudent to have children at any given time, and, if it is not, they are obliged to abstain, whether periodically or completely. It is not ok for either spouse to engage in imprudent behaviour for their own pleasure.
Oh, were it true that “depending on the couple doing nothing is a surefire way to get pregnant.” No, that is not true. This is the kind of presumption that gets those of us with no or few children looked at as if we must use a diaphragm on top of the Pill. Not everyone is so fertile as all of that! Before birth control was widely available, women with few children were looked upon as having fewer blessings. Now there are not a few people who feel entitled to believe them to be selfish and worldly, because they don’t have at least three or four. Well, that isn’t the way it works, especially if you didn’t find your husband while you were still in school!! The median age of first marriage for women was 20.3 in the US in 1960. In 2010, it was 26.1. No, women cannot just assume they can get married at 28 and automatically get a baby because they’re healthy. It doesn’t work that way.

This is a weird thread. Why on earth would anybody assume that every good faithful Catholic married couple out there must be either trying to conceive or trying not to conceive, as if the vocation of marriage cannot be lived well unless the couple is constantly obsessing over their chances of pregnancy? That’s not true!

If a couple is actively trying to conceive, knowing that their clock is ticking, then they are wise to chart and actually to abstain for a few days before the fertile time, so that the husband will be more fertile, too. Such a couple will undoubtedly find themselves interiorly encouraged to find a mood once in awhile where they might otherwise not. It’s not as if the time of maximum fertility were two weeks out of the month! Conversely, if a couple is actively trying to avoid conceiving, then of course the natural cycle can be used with intelligence to raise the odds of that, too.

Still, presumably both spouses know where babies come from and they can both decide to just have a married life *without *(gasp! :eek:) any charting, which Catholics have done for centuries. There is nothing irresponsible or closed to life to that, it does not automatically betray a “Providentialist” attitude, or any of the rest. Yes, they’re far more likely to conceive than if they were trying to avoid it, but also less likely to conceive than if they were trying to conceive. That is OK. A married couple is allowed to give up worrying and just live their life without obsessing about whether or not they’re going to have another child–that is OK!
 
Oh, were it true that “depending on the couple doing nothing is a surefire way to get pregnant.” No, that is not true. This is the kind of presumption that gets those of us with no or few children looked at as if we must use a diaphragm on top of the Pill. Not everyone is so fertile as all of that! Before birth control was widely available, women with few children were looked upon as having fewer blessings. Now there are not a few people who feel entitled to believe them to be selfish and worldly, because they don’t have at least three or four. Well, that isn’t the way it works, especially if you didn’t find your husband while you were still in school!! The median age of first marriage for women was 20.3 in the US in 1960. In 2010, it was 26.1. No, women cannot just assume they can get married at 28 and automatically get a baby because they’re healthy. It doesn’t work that way.
You misunderstood me. I was saying that for some couples “leaving it up to God” means getting pregnant. I was not trying to imply that all people are that fertile, but there are some who are.
This is a weird thread. Why on earth would anybody assume that every good faithful Catholic married couple out there must be either trying to conceive or trying not to conceive, as if the vocation of marriage cannot be lived well unless the couple is constantly obsessing over their chances of pregnancy? That’s not true!
If a couple is actively trying to conceive, knowing that their clock is ticking, then they are wise to chart and actually to abstain for a few days before the fertile time, so that the husband will be more fertile, too. Such a couple will undoubtedly find themselves interiorly encouraged to find a mood once in awhile where they might otherwise not. It’s not as if the time of maximum fertility were two weeks out of the month! Conversely, if a couple is actively trying to avoid conceiving, then of course the natural cycle can be used with intelligence to raise the odds of that, too.
Still, presumably both spouses know where babies come from and they can both decide to just have a married life *without *(gasp! :eek:) any charting, which Catholics have done for centuries. There is nothing irresponsible or closed to life to that, it does not automatically betray a “Providentialist” attitude, or any of the rest. Yes, they’re far more likely to conceive than if they were trying to avoid it, but also less likely to conceive than if they were trying to conceive. That is OK. A married couple is allowed to give up worrying and just live their life without obsessing about whether or not they’re going to have another child–that is OK!
I also don’t really think this thread is presuming you have to be either actively trying to concieve or avoid… of course you can just let things be. But when you have a scenario where one spouse wants another child and the other doesn’t you can’t just assert that the correct thing to do is to just keep having sex and “leave it up to God”. Which is what someone earlier in this thread did, and which is what I was responding to.
 
Nothing very loving about such an unilateral decision. The Church says it is for the couple to make the decision, not just the husband.
Hold on a second. Are you saying that if a couple can not agree that they should just let it tear apart their marriage? Agreement should always be sought, but in some rare instances someone has to make a call for the entire family. The husband answers first to God and if God wants the couple to have more children and the wife does not are you asking the husband to disobey God? Also, you are judging the motives of the husband. What if the husband knows that in the long run another child will bless his wife even if she does not think that at the present time? Is it not possible to love her by leading her in this decision?
 
Hold on a second. Are you saying that if a couple can not agree that they should just let it tear apart their marriage? Agreement should always be sought, but in some rare instances someone has to make a call for the entire family. The husband answers first to God and if God wants the couple to have more children and the wife does not are you asking the husband to disobey God? Also, you are judging the motives of the husband. What if the husband knows that in the long run another child will bless his wife even if she does not think that at the present time? Is it not possible to love her by leading her in this decision?
Yes, it is possible, but what if the wife knows, in a way that her husband cannot understand, that another kid will destroy her emotionally? What then? Is she just supposed to submit because her husband thinks he knows better? No, they need to sit down and have a conversation about it, probably many conversations about it where they both try to understand where each other are coming from. If done out of love, eventually one of them will realize that they ought to be the one to give in and will do so. That is how this situation needs to be settled, not by some universal “get pregnant” or “the man gets his way” kind of statement.
 
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