What if a couple disagrees on more kids?

[Debora123]

Paul, please tell me what you think about this post, since you completely ignored it. Do you think then that it was wrong for us to compromise on the issues below? Do you think we should have done all these things his way rather than agreeing to compromise and take turns?

How exactly would God go about “asking” the wife to do what the husband says? Are there ever times when the husband should do what the wife says? Does God ever ask the husband to follow her lead? You seem to be staging this whole male dominance thing as some sort of direct order from God…

Honestly, I just don’t understand why you seem to have such a struggle with the idea of compromise and equal partnership in a successful marriage.

Are you married? There have been many issues that have come up in my marriage where my husband and I don’t agree, and the final decision doesn’t go to him at all times. We compromise and take turns sacrificing for the other.

Here are a couple of the more petty child-related examples I can share in which my husband and I disagreed and ended up having to compromise:

(No kids yet, this is all just planning for the future). My husband’s family has a tradition of making every first son’s middle name be the first name of the father, the second son’s middle name be the first name of the paternal grandpa, the third son would be the great grandpa, and so on. Quite frankly, I don’t like this idea one bit, and as you can imagine he wasn’t too happy about me not liking this idea. Something else petty we disagreed on is that I don’t want him present in the delivery room when I give birth. I am South American and it is not in our culture to have the husband present during that time, and I’d rather not have him there while I’m involuntarily pooping myself as I’m pushing for the baby to come out. Well, he’s gonna wanna be there.

So what happens? Do I let him have his way with both those things because he’s a man and I’m a woman? Absolutely not. We compromised. I agreed that when the time comes he can be present to witness me giving birth, and he promises to be OK with picking other middle names for our sons. I sacrificed, and he sacrificed.

Another thing is that my husband wants a larger family. The problem with that is that he’s in the military and actually going through pilot trainning right now for the Air Force. He’s not going to be around too much and there will be times when he’ll be gone for several months at a time, leaving me alone in whatever part of the world the military has assigned us to. I don’t want to be alone in South Korea with five kids while my husband is on a year long deployment to Afghanistan.

So what to do? Should I suck it up and give him the big family he wants because it’s what HE wants and he’s a MAN? Not at all. Him being an Air Force pilot will definitely put a strain on me and be very difficult for me, but I promised to be supportive and accommodating so that he can be successful in living his dream. In turn he has put aside his desire for a large family and has said that it’ll be up to me when I feel I’ve had enough kids.

Those were petty examples, but do you see how that works? We won’t always agree, and when we don’t, we sort of “take turns” doing the will of the other. He doesn’t always automatically get the final word on everything just because he’s a man. That’s ridiculous. Compromise goes a long way.

 

[mommamaree]

I read your other post as well. Here is my concern…The fact that you are not in agreement of letting your husband make the final decision in the best interest of the family (after you have given all the (name removed by moderator)ut on the decision and after you can not come to a mutual agreement) suggests that you do not fully trust your husband. If you think you can trust your husband to follow the example of Jesus as a servant leader, then why not trust him to make the decisions for the family when mutual agreement can not be found? This idea of taking turns means that you have to keep score. Keeping score in a marriage is a very dangerous habit that can cause division and resentment over time. Again, if you trust your husband you should have no issue following his loving sacrificial leadership. If you do not trust your husband to think of your best interests then that is a foundational issue that needs to be worked out in your marriage. I am married and my wife trusts God, but trusting my leadership. She is always giving me (name removed by moderator)ut and I always want to hear what she says. It has only been a few times in our 6 years that I have had to make a decision where we did not agree…but those were some very big decisions (like what city to live in) that God used to strengthen our marriage.

Compromise DOES lead to mutual agreement. The husband, as a servant leader, is supposed to take into account the needs and wishes of his wife before making any decisions. This means that he will not always get his own way, in fact, it very often means that he will not be getting his own way, but will instead be giving himself up for his wife and his children. Compromise, and having a give-and-take on decision-making DOES NOT equal score-keeping. It does not equal trust issues.

 

[mommamaree]

As for me and my marriage, I know that my husband is no mind-reader. There is no way in the world for him to know what my needs are, or what my feelings, thoughts, wishes are, unless I tell him very specifically. And due to the personality of my husband, sometimes I have to say it loudly and very clearly. Like saying “You are not hearing me. This is important so you need to slow down, stop and listen. Charging ahead with this course of action has the potential to be very damaging.” In fact, he even recently gave me a signed copy of a statement just like that and asked me to laminate it, so that I can grab it and hand it to him the next time that he gets the blinders on and is not seeing reason. That is part of HOW I am supposed to be his help-mate.
My husband loves me and our children very much, but there is not a chance that he could make decisions in the best interest of our family unless I speak up and I encourage him to think of factors that probably haven’t even occurred to him. That is why we are a good match. Even after 15 years (almost 16!) of marriage, we are still working on improving our teamwork, which, for us, means that I learn to be MORE assertive, and he learns to be LESS aggressive. We believe that God brought us together for good reason. As we get older and maybe a bit wiser, we discover more of those reasons. And this past year, we have been working a lot on him listening and me speaking.
So, to Paul’s concerns, I would say that no matter how much one loves and trusts one’s husband, he is never ever to be placed in the position of benevolent dictator. That is perhaps the role of a parent, but never a husband. A husband is a servant leader. A husband should ask his wife, listen to his wife, consider her concerns and needs, and then suggest a plan forward. They should work together to refine his plan as teammates, not as adversaries.

 

[Debora123]

I read your other post as well. Here is my concern…The fact that you are not in agreement of letting your husband make the final decision in the best interest of the family (after you have given all the (name removed by moderator)ut on the decision and after you can not come to a mutual agreement) suggests that you do not fully trust your husband. If you think you can trust your husband to follow the example of Jesus as a servant leader, then why not trust him to make the decisions for the family when mutual agreement can not be found? This idea of taking turns means that you have to keep score. Keeping score in a marriage is a very dangerous habit that can cause division and resentment over time. Again, if you trust your husband you should have no issue following his loving sacrificial leadership. If you do not trust your husband to think of your best interests then that is a foundational issue that needs to be worked out in your marriage. I am married and my wife trusts God, but trusting my leadership. She is always giving me (name removed by moderator)ut and I always want to hear what she says. It has only been a few times in our 6 years that I have had to make a decision where we did not agree…but those were some very big decisions (like what city to live in) that God used to strengthen our marriage.

I did not see this post.

This has nothing to do with trusting each other. Of course we trust each other with our lives. He trusts me 100%, that doesn’t mean that he leaves all the decision making to me and that I have the final say on everything. Likewise, I trust him 100%, but that doesn’t mean that I leave all the decision making to him and that he has the final say in everything. Neither one of us is God. We are both equally flawed human beings who are capable of making mistakes and who need each other’s opinions and (name removed by moderator)ut.

It isn’t about trust, it’s about 2 equal adults being in a lifelong relationship and learning to compromise. I must say this is THE first time I’ve ever heard anyone say that compromise is bad for a relationship and leads to score keeping and resentment. I’m not sure how compromise can lead to resentment, but having one person always make all the decisions does not.

Sure, I guess you can be the top dog in your own marriage and have the final say and make all the decisions about everything… if that works for you, then great. If your wife is ok with this sort of one sidedness, then great. I guarantee it would NOT work for my marriage, and neither would my husband even agree with that, because that is not what we were taught a marriage should be and that’s not how we believe a marriage should be. Nothing in the wedding vows even comes close to suggesting that part of my husband’s duty is to have the final say in everything and part of my duty is to let him. And this is not at all what we learned in marriage prep and pre cana.

**The important thing here is that you understand that this whole male dominance thing where the man always has the final say and that there should be no compromise is your own personal opinion and NOT Church teaching. **

 

[Paul_Fekete]

---

Duke it out – you make it sound like – the only alternative-- is the couple pounding each other over the head. From what I have observe – the matter does come to a conclusion. Sometimes the conclusion will favor the wife – sometimes the husband.

There is no way to fit – the husband having the final say – without injuring the dignity and undermining the equal rights of the wife.

Did Jesus have “equal rights” with God when he submited to the will of the father? What did Jesus say right before going to the cross? Luke 22:42

“Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done.”

Jesus submitted to the will of the Father to bring peace and salvation to earth. In the same way the wife should submit to the husband to bring peace and salvation to the family.

 

[Debora123]

Did Jesus have “equal rights” with God when he submited to the will of the father? What did Jesus say right before going to the cross? Luke 22:42

“Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done.”

Jesus submitted to the will of the Father to bring peace and salvation to earth. In the same way the wife should submit to the husband to bring peace and salvation to the family.

Yeah, except for the little part where a husband is not God, but a flawed human being who isn’t always going to make the right decisions and doesn’t always know best.

Please don’t keep pushing this particular ideal of yours as some sort of universal Church teaching, because it is far from it. It is your opinion. Nothing more.

 

[Paul_Fekete]

I did not see this post.

This has nothing to do with trusting each other. Of course we trust each other with our lives. He trusts me 100%, that doesn’t mean that he leaves all the decision making to me and that I have the final say on everything. Likewise, I trust him 100%, but that doesn’t mean that I leave all the decision making to him and that he has the final say in everything. Neither one of us is God. We are both equally flawed human beings who are capable of making mistakes and who need each other’s opinions and (name removed by moderator)ut.

It isn’t about trust, it’s about 2 equal adults being in a lifelong relationship and learning to compromise. I must say this is THE first time I’ve ever heard anyone say that compromise is bad for a relationship and leads to score keeping and resentment. I’m not sure how compromise can lead to resentment, but having one person always make all the decisions does not.

Sure, I guess you can be the top dog in your own marriage and have the final say and make all the decisions about everything… if that works for you, then great. If your wife is ok with this sort of one sidedness, then great. .

It is about trust. Your unwillingness to let him make the call for the best of the family shows you do not trust him to do so. Why is it so hard to trust your husband if he has commited to loving and leading you like Jesus loves and leads the Church? Also, all decisions do not have the same weight. If the husband gets to decide on what type of refrigerator to buy and the wife decides what state to live in those 2 decisions do not have the same weight. So now you have to keep track of the number of decisions and weight of the decisions each person has made. The score keeping can lead to arugments and bitternees over time. I have seen this over and over in my family and friends marriages who attempt the 50:50 model. Just look at how many couples divorce over disagreements on major decisions like what state to live in (near your parents or my parents), how many kids to have, how to much money to spend on major purchases like houses or cars. There is always someone who has more say on the major decisions and to say that you are perfectly 50:50 means you are in denial that someone is calling the shots for the team.

 

[Debora123]

Did Jesus have “equal rights” with God when he submited to the will of the father?

Paul Fekete, are you meaning to say then that you reject the notion that a wife and husband have equal rights?

Do you reject this:

CHARTER OF THE RIGHTS OF THE FAMILY

Article 1

c) The spouses, in the natural complementarity which exists between man and woman, enjoy the same dignity and equal rights regarding the marriage.

vatican.va/roman_curia/po…rights_en.html

 

[Debora123]

It is about trust. Your unwillingness to let him make the call for the best of the family shows you do not trust him to do so. Why is it so hard to trust your husband if he has commited to loving and leading you like Jesus loves and leads the Church? Also, all decisions do not have the same weight. If the husband gets to decide on what type of refrigerator to buy and the wife decides what state to live in those 2 decisions do not have the same weight. So now you have to keep track of the number of decisions and weight of the decisions each person has made. The score keeping can lead to arugments and bitternees over time. I have seen this over and over in my family and friends marriages who attempt the 50:50 model. Just look at how many couples divorce over disagreements on major decisions like what state to live in (near your parents or my parents), how many kids to have, how to much money to spend on major purchases like houses or cars. There is always someone who has more say on the major decisions and to say that you are perfectly 50:50 means you are in denial that someone is calling the shots for the team.

Let me ask you something.

Does YOUR unwillingness to trust your wife and let HER lead show that you do not trust her to let her do so?

 

[Paul_Fekete]

Yeah, except for the little part where a husband is not God, but a flawed human being who isn’t always going to make the right decisions and doesn’t always know best.
.

The husband is a sinner, but you trusted your parents who are sinners when you were a child…God can even use the mistakes of your husbands for good in the long run. Again, you should never follow your husband if he is asking you to sin or to disobey God. My view is based on the Bible and can be found in the teachings of the Catholic church. The solution of having a sinful husband is not to take away his role as the head of the home…the solution is to help your husband become more like Jesus. The more your husband is like Jesus the better your marriage and family will be.

 

[Debora123]

The husband is a sinner, but you trusted your parents who are sinners when you were a child…God can even use the mistakes of your husbands for good in the long run. Again, you should never follow your husband if he is asking you to sin or to disobey God. My view is based on the Bible and can be found in the teachings of the Catholic church. The solution of having a sinful husband is not to take away his role as the head of the home…the solution is to help your husband become more like Jesus. The more your husband is like Jesus the better your marriage and family will be.

So you are of the opinion that a woman is like a child and her husband is like a parent. That is fine and dandy if your wife is ok with this, but this is NOT what the Church teaches.

Your views cannot be found in the Catholic Church, and in fact are contrary to Catholic teaching.

 

[LightBound]

The husband is a sinner, but you trusted your parents who are sinners when you were a child…God can even use the mistakes of your husbands for good in the long run. Again, you should never follow your husband if he is asking you to sin or to disobey God. My view is based on the Bible and can be found in the teachings of the Catholic church. The solution of having a sinful husband is not to take away his role as the head of the home…the solution is to help your husband become more like Jesus. The more your husband is like Jesus the better your marriage and family will be.

Paul, you seem to have a very profound interest in this topic. Are you married and are finding conflicts with your own relationship as far as decision-making or are you single and trying to see how other couples make it work as far as mutual decision-making in their marriage?

 

[Debora123]

You’ll have to forgive me, but some of the things you’re saying are so far out there and so condescending and sexist, I’m beginning to wonder if you’re a troll…

 

[Paul_Fekete]

Let me ask you something.

Does YOUR unwillingness to trust your wife and let HER lead show that you do not trust her to let her do so?

I always listen to what my wife has to say on any matter and many times we disagree at first and then over time I see her view as being the correct course. However, I need to agree with the decisions we make together. Does Jesus lead his bride (the church) like a dictatorship? No, Jesus listens to us and loves us with grace and mercy. Again, if a husband is leading like Jesus then what is the fear of trusting him with the role of head of the home? Saying you trust in Jesus, but then having fear to trust your husband who wants to lovingly lead like Jesus seems to be a contradicition on your part. How to submit to one another through the specific roles in marriage is spelled out in Ephesians 5:

Ephesians 5:

The Christian Household
21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind—yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body.** 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the church. 33 Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband.**

 

[Debora123]

Paul, you seem to have a very profound interest in this topic. Are you married and are finding conflicts with your own relationship as far as decision-making or are you single and trying to see how other couples make it work as far as mutual decision-making in their marriage?

Supposedly, he’s been married for 6 years.

 

[Debora123]

I always listen to what my wife has to say on any matter and many times we disagree at first and then over time I see her view as being the correct course. However, I need to agree with the decisions we make together. Does Jesus lead his bride (the church) like a dictatorship? No, Jesus listens to us and loves us with grace and mercy. Again, if a husband is leading like Jesus then what is the fear of trusting him with the role of head of the home? Saying you trust in Jesus, but then having fear to trust your husband who wants to lovingly lead like Jesus seems to be a contradicition on your part.

Please answer the question, Paul. Do you or do you not TRUST your wife to let HER take the lead sometimes?

Because if you can accuse me of not trusting my husband for not agreeing that he should always have the final say, then I can just as easily accuse you of not trusting your wife for not agreeing that she should always have the final say.

 

[mommamaree]

Paul Fekete,

HOW is a husband supposed to make decisions in the best interest of the family if the wife is silent in the decision-making process? He will be unaware of the challenges and the needs of his wife and children. In any cooperative group, a leader who makes unilateral decisions without taking into account the needs and desires, the unique personalities and the particular circumstances, is a BAD LEADER.

A wife is supposed to help her husband be more Christ-like by showing him HOW he can serve them. She can point out his blind spots, encourage him to work on his areas of weakness, be honest when she sees trouble coming from a short-sighted decision, and even tell her husband “no” when his choices are selfish or destructive.

 

[LightBound]

The husband is a sinner, but you trusted your parents who are sinners when you were a child…God can even use the mistakes of your husbands for good in the long run. Again, you should never follow your husband if he is asking you to sin or to disobey God. My view is based on the Bible and can be found in the teachings of the Catholic church. The solution of having a sinful husband is not to take away his role as the head of the home…the solution is to help your husband become more like Jesus. The more your husband is like Jesus the better your marriage and family will be.

What exactly is your definition of “head of the home”? Does it mean to truly have the final say on everything? If so, do you believe that the husband is truly following St Paul’s teaching in Ephesians if he doesn’t put away his selfish desires (dying to self) by meeting his wife’s wants and needs first? Even if it means letting her make the final decision when an agreement cannot be met? Being the strong leader means he will have to give himself (and his needs and wants) up for his beloved. That’s the mutual submission St Paul talks about when he says “be submissive to each other out of reverence for Christ”. The same mutual submission Blessed John Paul ll speaks of in his writings.

 

[Debora123]

Paul Fekete,

HOW is a husband supposed to make decisions in the best interest of the family if the wife is silent in the decision-making process? He will be unaware of the challenges and the needs of his wife and children. In any cooperative group, a leader who makes unilateral decisions without taking into account the needs and desires, the unique personalities and the particular circumstances, is a BAD LEADER.

A wife is supposed to help her husband be more Christ-like by showing him HOW he can serve them. She can point out his blind spots, encourage him to work on his areas of weakness, be honest when she sees trouble coming from a short-sighted decision, and even tell her husband “no” when his choices are selfish or destructive.

I think Paul agrees that a woman should be allowed to give her (name removed by moderator)ut, but he still feels like in the end, it’s always the husband’s last call regardless.

 

[LightBound]

Paul Fekete,

HOW is a husband supposed to make decisions in the best interest of the family if the wife is silent in the decision-making process? He will be unaware of the challenges and the needs of his wife and children. In any cooperative group, a leader who makes unilateral decisions without taking into account the needs and desires, the unique personalities and the particular circumstances, is a BAD LEADER.

A wife is supposed to help her husband be more Christ-like by showing him HOW he can serve them. She can point out his blind spots, encourage him to work on his areas of weakness, be honest when she sees trouble coming from a short-sighted decision, and even tell her husband “no” when his choices are selfish or destructive.