What if a couple disagrees on more kids?

[Paul_Fekete]

Please answer the question, Paul. Do you or do you not TRUST your wife to let HER take the lead sometimes?

Because if you can accuse me of not trusting my husband for not agreeing that he should always have the final say, then I can just as easily accuse you of not trusting your wife for not agreeing that she should always have the final say.

I do trust my wife to make decsions for the best of the family. However, I answer to God first and then my wife second. God has given me clear instructions to lead my wife like Jesus leads the Church. For me to give the responsiblity of leadership to my wife is to disobey God. So this is not so much about me trusting my wife…it is who about me trusting in God and the plans He gave for roles in marriage. Do you trust in God’s plan for marriage or are you following a man made plan of 50:50? The Bible calls for 100:100 and then gives specific roles on how to 100% love and respect each other. If you do not agree then that is between you and God. Don’t hate the messenger here.

 

[Kelfa28]

It is about trust. Your unwillingness to let him make the call for the best of the family shows you do not trust him to do so. Why is it so hard to trust your husband if he has commited to loving and leading you like Jesus loves and leads the Church? Also, all decisions do not have the same weight. If the husband gets to decide on what type of refrigerator to buy and the wife decides what state to live in those 2 decisions do not have the same weight. So now you have to keep track of the number of decisions and weight of the decisions each person has made. The score keeping can lead to arugments and bitternees over time. I have seen this over and over in my family and friends marriages who attempt the 50:50 model. Just look at how many couples divorce over disagreements on major decisions like what state to live in (near your parents or my parents), how many kids to have, how to much money to spend on major purchases like houses or cars. There is always someone who has more say on the major decisions and to say that you are perfectly 50:50 means you are in denial that someone is calling the shots for the team.

So it is always the husband’s decision to declare how much money the family spends, how many kids to raise and where to live?

What happens if the husband has a poor view of finances and feels the need to purchase a house the couple can barely afford? He forgoes savings, retirement, and potential college for the kids…just to get the house he feels the family needs?
He is making a poorly thought out and rash decision.
This isn’t considered abuse and he could make some good arguments as to why they need a house in this area…such as nice neighborhood, good schools and such.
Meanwhile the wife is saying…honey, we just can’t afford something like this.
Husband replies…sure we can! I make enough to pay the mortgage! We don’t need to worry about savings right now!

It’s a poor decision on the husband’s part…it’s not abusive and it’s not sinful, it’s just a really poor decision. So the wife should just cave?

How about a husband who decides he wants to buy a brand new car and add car payments to the family finances? Wife is unsure this is a wise decision and would like to shop for a reliable used car. She is concerned about the economy and would rather save money and pay for the car outright.
Hubby wants a brand new car. Again, not sinful and not abusive. But he is making a very poor decision for the family?
So the wife should just cave again!

Now the subject of children come up. Wife would like to have another child. Husband says absolutely not! We can’t afford another kid! I have a huge mortgage payment and car payments!
Nope, can’t be open to life at this point, due to financial hardship. Husband makes another poor decision that is the result of the previous poor decisions he has made and the wife has totally “submitted” to him.

Meanwhile…the wife is lonely. She misses her family she has been extremely close to…she has had a hard time with both her MIL and SIL and hasn’t made many friends since she has decided to give up her career and move with her husband to be closer to his family.

Despite voicing her concerns…he disagreed and declared she give up her job for the kids and move with him to be closer to his family.
Again…not sinful and not abusive. One could actually make an argument that this is expected of a women.

In a secular society…most women would be incredulous that she stays with this man…who continues to make “all” of the decisions and refuses to hear her (name removed by moderator)ut.
Yet…none of these decisions are inherently “bad” for the family.

Not all men can make sound decisions. A lot of these men are married.
Not all men have a good handle on spending and saving.
Sometimes the wife is just better at handling finances and sometimes she is the one who actually handles all of the finances.

Your argument only works if you see the woman as the flighty, irresponsible female that she is.
Husband is the strong, steadfast and responsible male. Therefore…all decisions (and rightfully so) are up to him.

Your argument only works if men never make poor decisions. Poor decisions that aren’t considered abusive or sinful.

Unfortunately…men do make poor decisions.

 

[Debora123]

I do trust my wife to make decsions for the best of the family. However, I answer to God first and then my wife second. God has given me clear instructions to lead my wife like Jesus leads the Church. For me to give the responsiblity of leadership to my wife is to disobey God. So this is not so much about me trusting my wife…it is who about me trusting in God and the plans He gave for roles in marriage. Do you trust in God’s plan for marriage or are you following a man made plan of 50:50? The Bible calls for 100:100 and then gives specific roles on how to 100% love and respect each other. If you do not agree then that is between you and God. Don’t hate the messenger here.

Since I highly doubt God made his appearance to you or sent you an email telling you that you always have the final say on all matters, please point to the CCC or any other Church document that backs up your statement that letting the wife make a decision is disobedient to God.

 

[Walking_Home]

I do trust my wife to make decsions for the best of the family. However, I answer to God first and then my wife second. God has given me clear instructions to lead my wife like Jesus leads the Church. For me to give the responsiblity of leadership to my wife is to disobey God. So this is not so much about me trusting my wife…it is who about me trusting in God and the plans He gave for roles in marriage. Do you trust in God’s plan for marriage or are you following your man made scheme of 50:50? The Bible calls for 100:100 and then gives specific roles on how to 100% love and respect each other. If you do not agree then that is between you and God.

---

Since the Catholic Church teaches otherwise – That marriage is mutual submission – and the wife has equal dignity and rights within marriage — It is Not God talking – but your own quest for power – control – and domination.

 

[Debora123]

And also, Paul, you never responded to this:

Originally Posted by Paul Fekete

 

[LightBound]

I do trust my wife to make decsions for the best of the family. However, I answer to God first and then my wife second. God has given me clear instructions to lead my wife like Jesus leads the Church. For me to give the responsiblity of leadership to my wife is to disobey God. So this is not so much about me trusting my wife…it is who about me trusting in God and the plans He gave for roles in marriage. Do you trust in God’s plan for marriage or are you following a man made plan of 50:50? The Bible calls for 100:100 and then gives specific roles on how to 100% love and respect each other. If you do not agree then that is between you and God. Don’t hate the messenger here.

Paul, I don’t want to ask a question that’s too personal, but have you ever had to “pull rank” on something with your wife and she then was unhappy about it or it turned out to be the wrong decision and you felt guilty over it ? I ask this because I find it odd (sorry, I hope that doesn’t offend) that you have such a strong interest in this topic when most everyone on here has described how their marriages work just fine following the mutual submission aspect. It seems as though you are unsettled about something in your own life and are inquiring as to how other faithful Catholic couples work things out or you (and I hope not) have come onto the thread to tell us how we are not following the Bible and the Church. I see you are new here and perhaps you weren’t aware that this subforum has a history of attracted radicals and trolls that love to stir the pot with comments about wifely submission, paying the “martial debt” and a host of other topics made to irritate good Catholics.

 

[mommamaree]

I do trust my wife to make decsions for the best of the family. However, I answer to God first and then my wife second. God has given me clear instructions to lead my wife like Jesus leads the Church. For me to give the responsiblity of leadership to my wife is to disobey God. So this is not so much about me trusting my wife…it is who about me trusting in God and the plans He gave for roles in marriage. Do you trust in God’s plan for marriage or are you following a man made plan of 50:50? The Bible calls for 100:100 and then gives specific roles on how to 100% love and respect each other. If you do not agree then that is between you and God. Don’t hate the messenger here.

Your statement about answering to God first and then your wife second neglects to take into account the fact that you will answer to God for HOW you lead your family. Do you lead by dominating or do you lead by serving? Do you make unilateral decisions and expect your family to tow the line, or do you inquire as to the needs and wishes of your family and then do your very best to meet those needs? Do you insist on your own way (remember that the Apostle Paul, your namesake, informs us that love does not insist on its own way) or do you seek ways to delight your wife and make her feel cherished? I ask these questions because servant leadership and cherishing one’s wife are not the messages that your posts are sending.

 

[Debora123]

God has given me clear instructions to lead my wife like Jesus leads the Church.

This has been explained to me on multiple occasions, and I’ve already mentioned it once on this thread. This whole “Jesus leads the Church as husband leads wife” refers specifically to spiritual leadership. It means that the husband should bear the majority of the responsibility in leading his family to heaven. It has NOTHING to do with authority, dominance, and having the final say in all decisions.

I could never make something like that up. That is something that has been taught to me by multiple different Church related functions.

 

[Paul_Fekete]

What exactly is your definition of “head of the home”? Does it mean to truly have the final say on everything? If so, do you believe that the husband is truly following St Paul’s teaching in Ephesians if he doesn’t put away his selfish desires (dying to self) by meeting his wife’s wants and needs first? Even if it means letting her make the final decision when an agreement cannot be met? Being the strong leader means he will have to give himself (and his needs and wants) up for his beloved. That’s the mutual submission St Paul talks about when he says “be submissive to each other out of reverence for Christ”. The same mutual submission Blessed John Paul ll speaks of in his writings.

How does Jesus lead his Bride (the Chruch)? Well that is exactly how a husband is supposed to lead his bride (his wife). Jesus is the head of the Church as the husband is the head of the home.

 

[mommamaree]

This has been explained to me on multiple occasions, and I’ve already mentioned it once on this thread. This whole “Jesus leads the Church as husband leads wife” refers specifically to spiritual leadership. It means that the husband should bears the majority of the responsibility in leading his family to heaven. It has NOTHING to do with authority, dominance, and having the final say in all decisions.

I could never make something like that up. That is something that has been taught to me by multiple different Church related functions.

Yes, and furthermore, it was explained in some great essays that I have read since my conversion that, as a result of the Fall and the sin that entered interpersonal relationships, that husbands will tend to attempt leadership by domination, whereas Jesus insisted upon servant leadership.

 

[Kelfa28]

This has been explained to me on multiple occasions, and I’ve already mentioned it once on this thread. This whole “Jesus leads the Church as husband leads wife” refers specifically to spiritual leadership. It means that the husband should bears the majority of the responsibility in leading his family to heaven. It has NOTHING to do with authority, dominance, and having the final say in all decisions.

I could never make something like that up. That is something that has been taught to me by multiple different Church related functions.

And the Church knows exactly what it is talking about in this regard.

The husband…at the end of the day…is a much better spiritual leader for a family then the wife is.
Just look at the facts.
A child from a family that has a husband/father who actively practices the faith and is the leader of his faith within the family…is far and away more likely to keep the faith.

This is why the Church teaches that the husband should be the spiritual leader…just as Jesus was for the Church…a husband/father is just naturally better at it then the wife/mother.

 

[Paul_Fekete]

This has been explained to me on multiple occasions, and I’ve already mentioned it once on this thread. This whole “Jesus leads the Church as husband leads wife” refers specifically to spiritual leadership. It means that the husband should bears the majority of the responsibility in leading his family to heaven. It has NOTHING to do with authority, dominance, and having the final say in all decisions.

I could never make something like that up. That is something that has been taught to me by multiple different Church related functions.

Is not how to spend your money, how many kids to have, and what state to live in Spiritual decisions? How do you separate a Spiritual decsion from a non-Spiritual decision? In the end most if not all decisions can have Spiritual impacts on you and your family.

 

[LightBound]

How does Jesus lead his Bride (the Chruch)? Well that is exactly how a husband is supposed to lead his bride (his wife). Jesus is the head of the Church as the husband is the head of the home.

And He gave Himself up for the Church- even onto death on a cross. For most men, their “death” will materialize into death to selfish wants and desires, giving those up for his beloved. Sometimes, that even means laying down his livelihood (or decision) for the harmony of his wife.

 

[Kelfa28]

How does Jesus lead his Bride (the Chruch)? Well that is exactly how a husband is supposed to lead his bride (his wife). Jesus is the head of the Church as the husband is the head of the home.

Jesus also understood mutual submission and submits Himself to the Church. He sacrificed himself for the Church willingly…in order for the Church to thrive. And thrive it did.

A husband is called to do the same thing for his wife.

 

[Debora123]

How does Jesus lead his Bride (the Chruch)? Well that is exactly how a husband is supposed to lead his bride (his wife). Jesus is the head of the Church as the husband is the head of the home.

Once again, this refers to spiritual leadership. Men take on a bigger responsiblity to lead the family into heaven.

This has nothing to do with men being the superior to his wife, this has nothing to do with men being like the parents and women being like the children, this has nothing to do with authority, this has nothing to do with having the final say in all decisions, and this DOES NOT imply that a wife and husband cannot compromise on decisions or that it is against God’s will for a husband to let his wife make a decision.

 

[Paul_Fekete]

Paul, I don’t want to ask a question that’s too personal, but have you ever had to “pull rank” on something with your wife and she then was unhappy about it or it turned out to be the wrong decision and you felt guilty over it ? I ask this because I find it odd (sorry, I hope that doesn’t offend) that you have such a strong interest in this topic when most everyone on here has described how their marriages work just fine following the mutual submission aspect. It seems as though you are unsettled about something in your own life and are inquiring as to how other faithful Catholic couples work things out or you (and I hope not) have come onto the thread to tell us how we are not following the Bible and the Church. I see you are new here and perhaps you weren’t aware that this subforum has a history of attracted radicals and trolls that love to stir the pot with comments about wifely submission, paying the “martial debt” and a host of other topics made to irritate good Catholics.

The reason I am passionate about this is becasue my marriage has seen huge blessing from understanding this prinicipal. Also, I have many friends and family memebers who I love that rejected this teaching and the results were bitter divorces that caused huge damage. Since I think this prinicipal is important than I hope to share it with others. God opened the eyes of my wife and I on this and we hope he does the same for others.

 

[Paul_Fekete]

Once again, this refers to spiritual leadership. Men take on a bigger responsiblity to lead the family into heaven.

This has nothing to do with men being the superior to his wife, this has nothing to do with men being like the parents and women being like the children, this has nothing to do with authority, this has nothing to do with having the final say in all decisions, and this DOES NOT imply that a wife and husband cannot compromise on decisions or that it is against God’s will for a husband to let his wife make a decision.

How many kids to have is a Spiritual decision. The start of a husband leading his child to heaven is to lead his wife to be in agreement to giving birth to a child.

When did I say that the husband is superior or that a wife is like a child? All I said is that there are times when God calls us to trust the leading of sinful people as a way to trust Him. The same goes with working for a boss…God calls us to submit to our bosses at work. Husbands are called to submit to the church leadership. If the husband sins and rules harshly then the preist should step in…Everyone is called to submit to someone in this life as apart of God’s plan. Jesus submitted to the will of the Father so submission to authority is a part of following Jesus.

 

[LightBound]

I do trust my wife to make decsions for the best of the family. However, I answer to God first and then my wife second. God has given me clear instructions to lead my wife like Jesus leads the Church. For me to give the responsiblity of leadership to my wife is to disobey God. So this is not so much about me trusting my wife…it is who about me trusting in God and the plans He gave for roles in marriage. Do you trust in God’s plan for marriage or are you following a man made plan of 50:50? The Bible calls for 100:100 and then gives specific roles on how to 100% love and respect each other. If you do not agree then that is between you and God. Don’t hate the messenger here.

You do realize that you are still exercising your “leadership” when you choose to let your wife make a final decision, don’t you? That’s the hardest thing I think men come up against in a marriage. Dying to self and realizing that in being humble (not a doormat, though), they are strong. It takes a heck of a strong man and leader to say “honey, while I feel I’m right on this one, I’m going to hand myself over to you and go with your decision on this one”. That doesn’t mean the poor husband is hen-pecked or whatever that old term is, it means that in a functional and flourishing marriage, decisions of that magnitude should not come up often (if at all) and the husband should know when to defer to his wife. That’ s a marriage. Anything less is simply putting the wife in the position of a child when it comes to making a final decision and that’s just plain creepy.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I found this scenario, where the wife would like more children and the husband is unwilling. The answer is written by theologian Germain Grizes.

twotlj.org/G-3-31.html

 

[Debora123]

Is not how to spend your money, how many kids to have, and what state to live in Spiritual decisions? How do you separate a Spiritual decsion from a non-Spiritual decision? In the end most if not all decisions can have Spiritual impacts on you and your family.

Once again, this has nothing to do with decisions, period. On matters of decisions, whether they are “spiritual” decisions (whatever that is) or not, wife and husband are both equal and they should compromise, and neither one nor the other always has the upper hand in ANY decision making.

Being the spiritual leader means he bears most of the responsibility/burden in making sure his family gets to heaven. This means things like being proactive in volunteer work, encouraging involvement in Church functions, being a good example of the love of Christ, having to be the one who steps in when an outsider begins to threaten the family’s spiritual well being, being the emotional “rock” of the family when tragedy strikes, etc etc. The wife must do all this too, of course, but she should not have to bear the majority of the burden in doing so.

This has absolutely nothing to do with a husband having the final say in every and all decisions. The couple must learn to compromise and sacrifice on ALL decisions.