What if a "Gay Gene" exists?

[Elizabeth502]

Answer:
No evidence exists for a homosexual gene – no matter how many times this subject repeatedly gets introduced on this discussion forum (Hint: several times a year) by posters who apparently have difficulty using the search function.

The bigger issue is that human beings are not automatons. Behavior involves the will; we are not mechanical. Even scientists understand this – not to mention Catholics educated well in their faith. Human beings have not devolved to the level of the main characters in the film, The Clockwork Orange (yet). Even psychological compulsions do not make particular behaviors inevitable. Compulsions themselves are not mandates; believe it or not – in this age in which even too many people who profess to be Catholics worship Almighty Science – we are not controlled by our inclinations, temptations, attractions, preferences, or genes.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

i have the use of right reason. i use scripture, the catechism, church documents as well as current knowledge to form my opinions. i don’t have to believe the way you do and can still be a faithful catholic. i don’t think this matter will make me a bad catholic. contrary to your coercive thinking.

No you don’t have to believe the way anyone on here does. But you DO have to believe the way Christ taught which is what the Church teaches. You are dangerously at odds with infallible doctrine. That is grave matter. Don’t let modern sensibilities of “equality” cloud your judgement on supporting the Church and all Christ teaches Her.

 

[Hmgbrd]

God has an ordaining will and a permitting will. God does not ordain disordered inclinations. God does permit suffering. God ordained male and female. God permits many things in our fallen world.

I agree with you and believe that some are trying to introduce the idea of God having created a “third gender” and that by doing so it would justify a personal decision to act upon that premise. To date I have only seen men and women on this earth and no third gender. Just throwing this in.

 

[Corki]

You make several good points. I think we can agree that homosexual behavior is not a choice. The question then becomes is it morally right to choose to act to be gay? My argument is that if God has deliberately made someone gay, then yes, it should be right because the natural fulfillment of two homosexual people would be love just like two hetero people

It is never morally right to engage in homosexual acts.

God does not “deliberately” make someone homosexual any more than he makes a child with a fatal disease or serious handicap. All of the frailties of man exist due to the permissive will of God rather than His sovereign will.

Your other point is troubling, but I think has more closely related to whether or not abortion should be legal. If we eventually get to the point where we can abort the unborn based on undesirable characteristics, then I think we have no hope as a society.

We are already there. In the US, a woman does not need a “good” reason to abort a child. Children are aborted all the time for being the wrong “gender”, the wrong number (twins or triplets), the wrong color/race, or any number of perceived “defects”.

But to further the point, the reason homosexuality would be deemed undesirable hypothetically the cause for abortion is because we as a society have deemed it undesirable to begin with.

Of course, it is undesirable. That’s the nature of a disorder. Would you desire to have a child who is born with hemophilia or only one arm? Of course not. Even though you may love that child with all your heart and welcome him/her without question, you would always wish a child not have to live with that cross. Same thing with the disorder of homosexuality. It’s not society that makes homosexuality disordered. It is nature. Humans are sexual beings - meaning that their continued existence is based on the joining of male to female. Homosexuality goes agaist that simple scientific reality.

 

[Stylites]

its only a sin because they are not allowed to get married. if they were married, there would be no sin. just as for married heterosexual couples.

Supposedly, bank-robbery is a sin only because society doesn’t approve of it. What is right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral are not determined by laws, majority rule, or Caesar.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

It’s a well-established fact that homosexuality is not chosen, so that leaves genes and other outside factors. However, I believe that the Catholic position would probably not change, since it would require a big change in several major Catholic doctrines on sex.

Absolute nonsense! The so-call scientific studies that propounded the theory that Homosexuality is an inherited trait, so popular amongst the gay set, have been debunked by responsible scientists years ago. The reason this myth still persists is that it allows gays to say “It ain’t my fault” the cop out of all cop out!
Of course, being politically and socially incorrect, the “veys, schries and achs” of the gay crowd and their sympathisers will drown out rational discussion.
To paraphrase one of the all time classic gays, Gertrude Stein: “A Sin is a Sin is a Sin…”

 

[voctor09]

Of course, it is undesirable. That’s the nature of a disorder. Would you desire to have a child who is born with hemophilia or only one arm? Of course not. Even though you may love that child with all your heart and welcome him/her without question, you would always wish a child not have to live with that cross. Same thing with the disorder of homosexuality. It’s not society that makes homosexuality disordered. It is nature. Humans are sexual beings - meaning that their continued existence is based on the joining of male to female. Homosexuality goes agaist that simple scientific reality.

Homosexuality is only a disorder because we call it such based on our own close-mindedness. You say it is nature that says homosexuality is disorder, yet homosexuals have always existed and even exist in the animal world, so it seems it occurs quite naturally. The purpose of this thread is to suggest that homosexuality occurs naturally and that we are proving this scientifically.

We cling to an outdated ideology that relationships should only exist to procreate children. Sure, this was the necessary school of thought for a long time, especially Biblical antiquity when there weren’t many people around and the need to create more people (good Christian/Jewish people!) was paramount. If you lived in a tribe of 1000, only a few people could have children at any given time. It was necessary that every able bodied person reproduce to keep the tribe alive.

But now that we’re pushing 7 billion people, we’re becoming over populated. The primary focus of marriage today has shifted to mutual love instead of the need to populate the earth. Many couples that choose not to reproduce or who are infertile have demonstrated that their relationships can be just as fruitful and life-giving as marriages that produce children. So why do we focus solely on the ability to have children as the only qualifications for normalcy?

 

[voctor09]

Supposedly, bank-robbery is a sin only because society doesn’t approve of it. What is right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral are not determined by laws, majority rule, or Caesar.

That’s not true. Bank robbery is a sin because it hurts people. It’s stealing. Homosexuals only want to love.

 

[voctor09]

Supposedly, bank-robbery is a sin only because society doesn’t approve of it. What is right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral are not determined by laws, majority rule, or Caesar.

This is not true. Bank robbery is a sin because it hurts people. It is stealing. Homosexuals only want to love. It hurts no one.

 

[voctor09]

I heard a really wise saying on the Radio a few months back which really helped my stance on the issue. If there were really a Homosexual Gene that “caused” people to be Gay (born a Homosexual,) then there would not be 1 recorded incident in history of a Homosexual human being suddenly changing their ways and views and marrying someone of the opposite sex.

If it is not a choice, then everyone who was born a homosexual would always be a homosexual, there would not be any exceptions. There are plenty of conversion stories of course; of people who lived and practiced a Homosexual lifestyle and suddenly stopped at some point in their life.

I for example was born a Heterosexual; I have not had 1 Homosexual experience in my life. If I went out tomorrow and suddenly “had relations” with a person of my same gender, that would be my choice. In the eyes and words of God in scripture, he declares the “homosexual act” a sin; it is a sexual sin (life Fornication, Masturbation, etc.) We should all love and pray for any people that practice this lifestyle, because it is openly disobeying the wish of the Almighty.

Perhaps they “convert” because of religious and societal pressures? Imagine a gay boy being brought to one of those un-gayify prayer camps. It it were me I’d sure say I would have been cured to get out of there Or a gay person in a religious family who doesn’t want controversy.

 

[voctor09]

I agree with you and believe that some are trying to introduce the idea of God having created a “third gender” and that by doing so it would justify a personal decision to act upon that premise. To date I have only seen men and women on this earth and no third gender. Just throwing this in.

Not at all. A gay man is still a man. Nothing new is being introduced. Homosexuals have always existed. I’m suggesting the idea that it’s not an amoral decision but scientific genealogy that causes someone to be gay.

 

[David_Alexander]

This still troubles me today as yesterday (see my post earlier in the thread if interested).

I pray for peace among all souls, and for all beings to find God and be close to Him.

Homosexuality has been in existence for a long time, and frankly if Jesus Christ and the Apostles had had that much of a problem with it, I feel the New Testament would have dealt with it far more explicitly and with much greater emphasis. That is not to say homosexual relations are to be encouraged or endorsed but let us never forget grace and compassion. Evil exists, but to me homosexual relations are a lesser evil than prejudice.

Let us pray for those torn apart by sexual desire, and pray that they find happiness and the ability to live righteously in God’s eyes, for He is the judge, not us.

This issue gets so much ‘air time’ despite being hardly spoken of in the Bible and in the Catechism. It is like a tiny splinter in our feet, causing pain beyond its station. I believe the cure lies in loving before judging, and in accepting the impediments of others not with anger or disapproval, but with understanding, prayers and genuine compassion.

A lot of stones being thrown, let us examine ourselves.

 

[voctor09]

Answer:
No evidence exists for a homosexual gene – no matter how many times this subject repeatedly gets introduced on this discussion forum (Hint: several times a year) by posters who apparently have difficulty using the search function.

The bigger issue is that human beings are not automatons. Behavior involves the will; we are not mechanical. Even scientists understand this – not to mention Catholics educated well in their faith. Human beings have not devolved to the level of the main characters in the film, The Clockwork Orange (yet). Even psychological compulsions do not make particular behaviors inevitable. Compulsions themselves are not mandates; believe it or not – in this age in which even too many people who profess to be Catholics worship Almighty Science – we are not controlled by our inclinations, temptations, attractions, preferences, or genes.

It’s fine to say we aren’t controlled by our compulsions. I would agree with you that Catholics have a devotion to a stricter form of behavior and I agree that the good Catholic should avoid lust and premarital sex and all other occasions of sin.

What I take issue with is the idea that God loves us and wants us to be happy EXCEPT for homosexuals. That somehow homosexually is grouped in with alcoholism, pedophilia and general deviant behavior. I think it’s an insult to God to say that certain members of his children don’t deserve happiness because we think they are disordered when they were created that way by The Creator in the first place.

And to your first point, nobody made you click on the thread if you don’t like the topic. No need to be snippy.

 

[voctor09]

Then that means there would have to be a “Pedophile Gene” and a “Zoophile Gene”.

In reality, these things begin as thoughts that become temptations, that turn into fantasies, that become actions, that grow into habits, that become obsessions, that end up as addictions, that warp the intellect into demanding legitimacy, and thus the need to parade in public in form of self assurance built upon the lies promoted by the massive propaganda machine called Hollywood.

That’s your opinion. More and more evidence suggests the contrary.

Every single person on this planet had a mother; and a loving masculine/feminine, father/mother influence upon a child has everything to do with how they will grow up to be as adults. But even then, there are dangers and pitfalls, as there are so many bad influences that can enslave human nature which has a weakness for sin. Thus the importance of living in the state of grace. If not, you are in danger of demonic enslavement.

This is completely untrue. There are plenty of people who were raised by single parents or without their parents. Sure, some end up in jail, but the majority of them don’t become social delinquents.

Conversely, there are plenty of people who were raised in loving masculine/feminine father/mother families who become serial killers.

 

[thewanderer]

It’s fine to say we aren’t controlled by our compulsions. I would agree with you that Catholics have a devotion to a stricter form of behavior and I agree that the good Catholic should avoid lust and premarital sex and all other occasions of sin.

What I take issue with is the idea that God loves us and wants us to be happy EXCEPT for homosexuals. That somehow homosexually is grouped in with alcoholism, pedophilia and general deviant behavior. I think it’s an insult to God to say that certain members of his children don’t deserve happiness because we think they are disordered when they were created that way by The Creator in the first place.

And to your first point, nobody made you click on the thread if you don’t like the topic. No need to be snippy.

This is a very uncatholic idea, I completely understand why you would take issue with it. Of course it is wrong say that homosexuals are not meant to be happy. Nobody is claiming this. The point people keep making by referring to alcoholism etc is that there are people whom God has created with these disorderd tendancies. And because of this it is incorrect to claim that homosexual desires are not disordered simply because some individuals were created that way. There needs to be a different criteria for determining what is natural and what isn’t. The Church makes this decision based off of much of her teaching, in particular her teachings about the fullness of the meaning of the marital act ( which all too many people discard as simply being ordered towards procreation… there is so much more to it and it is such a beautiful understanding of it, the most beautiful I have ever heard, thats for sure.) Not everyone agrees with the churches understanding of sex, but those who want to claim that it is naturall simply based on the fact that some people are born that way do not follow out the logical conclusions of that argument. Of coursse people are going to disagree on this issue, but the existance/non-existance of a “Gay Gene” will not prove anything either way with respect to this unless one wants to accept alcoholic tendencies etc as good and natural as well.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It’s fine to say we aren’t controlled by our compulsions. I would agree with you that Catholics have a devotion to a stricter form of behavior and I agree that the good Catholic should avoid lust and premarital sex and all other occasions of sin.

What I take issue with is the idea that God loves us and wants us to be happy EXCEPT for homosexuals. That somehow homosexually is grouped in with alcoholism, pedophilia and general deviant behavior. I think it’s an insult to God to say that certain members of his children don’t deserve happiness because we think they are disordered when they were created that way by The Creator in the first place.

Who do you believe says that God wants everybody except homosexuals to be happy? I haven’t said it. The Church doesn’t say it. I don’t see other posters saying it. Why are you bringing up a straw man? God wants nothing less than eternal and unconditional love for all His creatures. That’s both logical, and it’s Catholic theology. Just understand that for all of us, happiness is not the same thing as pleasure, or physical gratification.

And to your first point, nobody made you click on the thread if you don’t like the topic. No need to be snippy.

I am merely echoing the sentiments of many posters who tire of rehashing subjects which are introduced multiple times per year, and even per month, on CAF – without regard to the volume of information which exists both in the reference stickies atop each subforum and in previous threads wherein these debates are exhaustively covered. What I’m trying to say is that rarely are new points made or insights publicized when identical topics are reposted. On rare occasion a poster will announce that he or she wants to address the same topic from a different angle, or in light of a particular news story, etc. That can generate new tributaries.

I’m also saying that posters do better to research the previous discussions because most often their questions and concerns are already answered, refuted, or verified there, and often much more thoroughly. I pulled up 800 threads from the last 3 years in which this topic is discussed.

But again, addressing your question:

(1) Whatever genes we do have – including genes which may predispose us either to evil things or things merely unhealthy for us – they do not control us. Even modern psychology (as I said) does not maintain such an absence of self-control due to dynamics of the human psyche. There are two exceptions: one is genuine psychosis; the other is the (usually temporary) abnormal behavior manifestations which can be caused by some medications and other narcotics.

(2) Genes are also not in themselves responsible for our happiness or unhappiness. Nor are other conditions of our existence – whether inborn, environmental, or acquired over time (accidents, diseases, etc.) The Christian theology of suffering proclaims the Source of joy not to be the conditions of our existence, but Life in Christ. Some of the most genuinely and even ecstatically happy people have been those who have endured massive suffering. Many of these are called Saints, but they can also be found in the secular world as examples of human beings who unintentionally manifest the glory of God by their triumphant and redemptive response to suffering.

 

[underacloud]

I believe the cure lies in loving before judging, and in accepting the impediments of others not with anger or disapproval, but with understanding, prayers and genuine compassion.

A lot of stones being thrown, let us examine ourselves.

This is the approach I take regarding my personal interactions with gay people. I have gay/lesbian friends and I do not presume to judge them.

That said, I also support the Church in teaching what it receives from God regarding any and all moral issues.

So I think there is rightly a difference in the abstract treatment of this topic vs the personal treatment.

 

[Joe_5859]

Does that change how we have to look at homosexuals?

The way it would appear to me is that if homosexuality is genetic, then it is not chosen or caused by outside factors. Would that mean that God has made someone gay? And if so, does that mean we have to acknowledge that homosexuality is natural, since how could we question the intentions of God if he chooses to make people gay?

Edit: I don’t intend to make all my posts here about homosexuality. Just an issue that has raised a lot of questions concerning my faith.

Whether or not homosexuality is genetic is completely irrelevant to the morality of the act. I cannot emphasize that enough.

I will never understand why people on both sides of the issue argue this point as if everything rests on it. It makes no difference. At most, it could impact an individual’s subjective moral culpability for engaging in what is and always will be an intrinsically disordered act. But that’s for the person to sort out with their Confessor.

There are all sorts of things that are genetic (or genetically influenced), but we don’t use that as an excuse for immoral behavior. Some people say that alcoholism is genetic. Does that mean it is morally good for an alcoholic to go binge drinking at every opportunity regardless of the consequences? Absolutely not! Being quick-tempered might also be genetic. Does that mean it is morally good for a hot-head to fly off the handle and berate everyone they come into contact with? No.

Just because something is genetic does not mean it is part of human nature. People are born with genetic disorders, born without limbs, born blind, etc., etc. But those things stand out precisely because they run counter to what is part of our human nature.

If the Church taught that the simple fact of having same sex attraction was sinful, then whether or not it was genetic would be relevant (because, of course, sin is a choice). This is not what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that the act is sinful. And regardless of whether or not a person chooses the inclination, they certainly choose whether or not to act on it.

 

[buffalo]

That’s not true. Bank robbery is a sin because it hurts people. It’s stealing. Homosexuals only want to love.

Not…

The homosexual act is a sin and hurts the common good. It is intrinsically evil and violates natural law.

 

[buffalo]

Not at all. A gay man is still a man. Nothing new is being introduced. Homosexuals have always existed. I’m suggesting the idea that it’s not an amoral decision but scientific genealogy that causes someone to be gay.

Were Adam and Eve homosexual?