What if i choose to live a non catholic life?

[zamyrabyrd]

Blessings and thanks for this heartfelt and sincere post.
This is what so many here in ireland know and endure. I touch it but rarely; often deeply thankful for my illness that limits my active physical involvement with the Church and indeed with the world as I age.
Our life in Christ is more than active involvement with the Church. Far more …
There is Prayer. Solitaries are specialists in prayer, as were the Desert Fathers
I honour your perseverance and courage. Bless you! Here for you,

Thanks for your thanks. I am pretty much known as a gadfly since high school actually. I realize most of the time it is too hard for normal folk to fight city hall but church or religion were not meant to be a self-serving organizations or institutions. When they get too bureaucratic, severe pruning becomes desirable, the premise of the reformists 500 years ago. The problem with revolutions, however, is the more things change, the more they remain the same…

 

[Techno2000]

i am fully aware of the precepts of the church, and what catholicism requires in terms of going to the sacraments, and such. i studied the bible and the catechism for a very long time and became involved in the church, my question is, what if i chose to ignore the church for the rest of my life, be a “believer” but simply not attend mass, and not go to the sacraments when needed? it sounds terrible which is why i probably will not stray, but would i be in fear of condemnation at death

jay

Graces Derived from Assisting at Mass

The Mass is Calvary continued.
Every Mass is worth as much as the sacrifice of Our Lord’s life, sufferings and death.
Holy Mass is the most powerful atonement for your sins.
At the hour of death the Masses you have heard will be your greatest consolement.
Every Mass will go with you to judgement and plead for pardon.
At Mass you can diminish more or less temporal punishment due to your sins, according to your fervor.
Assisting devoutly at Holy Mass you render to the humanity of Our Lord the greatest homage.
He supplies for many of your negligences and omissions.
He forgives the venial sins which you have not confessed. The power of Satan over you is diminished.
You afford the souls in Purgatory the greatest possible relief.
One Mass heard during life will be of more benefit to you than many heard for you after your death.
You are preserved from dangers and misfortunes which otherwise might have befallen you. You shorten your Purgatory.
Every Mass wins you a higher degree of glory in Heaven.
You receive the Priest’s blessing which Our Lord ratifies in Heaven.
You kneel amidst a multitude of Holy Angels, who are present at the adorable Sacrifice with reverential awe.
You are blessed in your temporal goods and affairs.
In eternity, we shall fully realize that it was certainly worthwhile to have assisted at Holy Mass daily.

“The Mass is the most perfect form of prayer!”
(Pope Paul VI)

For each Mass we hear with devotion, Our Lord sends a saint to comfort us at death (revelation of Christ to St. Gertrude the great).

Padre Pio, the stigmatic priest, said, the world could exist more easily without the sun than without the Mass.

The Cure’ d’ Ars, St. Jean Vianney said, if we knew the value of the Mass we would die of joy.

A great doctor of the Church, St. Anselm, declares that a single Mass offered for oneself during life may be worth more than a thousand celebrated for the same intention after death. St. Leonard of Port Maurice supports this statement by saying that one Mass before death may be more profitable than many after it.

“The Holy Mass would be of greater profit if people had it offered in their lifetime, rather than having it celebrated for the relief of their souls after death.” (Pope Benedict XV).

Once, St. Teresa was overwhelmed with God’s Goodness and asked Our Lord, “How can I thank you?” Our Lord replied, “ATTEND ONE MASS.”

The Blessed Virgin Mary once told Her faithful servant Alain: “My Son so loves those who assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that, if it were necessary He would die for them as many times as they’ve heard Masses.”

brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm

 

[adamhovey1988]

I believe you’d be risking your salvation, as you stated you know the precepts of the Church. Then you would know what the Church teaches about the necessity of Mass attendance and the Sacraments, you know that you can lose your eternal life.

 

[holyrood]

i am fully aware of the precepts of the church, …what if i chose to ignore the church for the rest of my life, be a “believer” but simply not attend mass, and not go to the sacraments when needed? it sounds terrible which is why i probably will not stray, but would i be in fear of condemnation at death

jay

It seems to me a bit of an oxymoron. Can you really claim to ‘believe’ if you can easily walk away from what you claim to believe is so important? And if you can walk away, did you really truly ‘believe?’

This was clear to me at my grandmother’s funeral, where the priest was overjoyed that my grandmother was dead! I realized in that moment that if I actually believed in God and a joyful afterlife, I would view death differently than I did. From that day forward, I have seen death very differently, and in fact my daughter just mentioned that she’s noticed Catholics seem to have less fear of death than others.

The point goes to Eucharist–how can you believe what the church teaches it is and yet NOT go?

Are you perhaps saying that you would like to go the route of ‘spiritual but not religious?’ I confess, I personally believe that’s a route of feeling good about one’s own (purported) holiness, deepness, and profundity without actually holding oneself to any obligation or standard of behavior.

 

[PseuTonym]

Are you perhaps saying that you would like to go the route of ‘spiritual but not religious?’ I confess, I personally believe that’s a route of feeling good about one’s own (purported) holiness, deepness, and profundity without actually holding oneself to any obligation or standard of behavior.

Every participant in good standing on this message board is maintaining a standard of behavior.

James 1:19

“Remember this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to listen but slow to speak and slow to human anger;”

 

[holyrood]

Every participant in good standing on this message board is maintaining a standard of behavior.

James 1:19

“Remember this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to listen but slow to speak and slow to human anger;”

What is your point? What does ‘in good standing on this message board’ even mean? Those who haven’t been banned? And what does ‘maintaining a standard of behavior’ mean?

I’m really unclear what you’re really saying, but I think you take exception to what I said?

 

[holyrood]

I don’t know if this is bad luck or what but I usually get burned by hypocrites safely protected by organized religion so much that it impacts my credibility with my children.

I can’t cover up in front of them all the hurt I received (the last one being physically attacked by a nun where I was teaching in music school run by a famous Catholic order 11 years ago, after which was fired) and make credible excuses for these abusers. In other words, telling my kids, it’s not the Church but those who work the system.

Although the school is one of the nastiest places I have ever worked in, it enjoys an international sterling reputation to the extent it attracts money big time.

… The Catholic branch of my family similarly is hypocritical and also abusive.

**There are credible reasons why good and honest people leave the Church.
**

You were a teacher in a school, a nun physically attacked you, and you were fired? I’d be interested in hearing more about that, and also clarification about getting burned by hypocrites protected by the church and how that impacts YOUR credibility with your children. How old are they?

I’ve also had bad experiences with Catholics. I had a horrible experience teaching in a Catholic school, at the hands of a ‘good Catholic family,’ in fact, a couple of ‘good Catholic’ families. My own family I regard as hypocritical and abusive. I have a friend whose Catholic (or should I say ‘Catholic’) husband was appalling in his treatment of her–she has since left the faith and become Wiccan and blatantly anti-Christian.

I do not agree that any of this is a credible reason to leave the Church.

This, I think, is a big difference between Protestant and Catholic thought. They are very much about ‘community’ whereas we are more about ‘theology.’ Sure, I’d pick a Catholic church with a great community feel over a less friendly one any day.

But the only credible reason to leave a faith is that it is theologically incorrect.

That individual human beings are fallible is a reflection on individual human beings. In a church of, what, a billion or more people, there are definitely going to be some who aren’t the greatest.

In the meantime, I think we cheat ourselves of the graces of the sacrament and make our own lives harder–not the abusers–when we walk away.

I confess, I’m not particularly active in my church or its groups. I keep to myself, largely as a result of the actions of other Catholics, including my own mother. But that’s a far cry from just leaving the faith, the sacraments, and the church altogether.

 

[PseuTonym]

I’m really unclear what you’re really saying

Unless you identify what is unclear or potentially problematic, then there is no basis for a diagnosis, so it would be premature for me to attempt to provide a remedy. I could guess. After guessing, I could write. However, if the initial sequence of words elicits the question “what does it mean?” … then any subsequent attempt to elaborate or clarify can also elicit the same question.

And what does ‘maintaining a standard of behavior’ mean?

Perhaps I should have asked that question in response to …

without actually holding oneself to any obligation or standard of behavior.

If you had provided an answer, then I would be in possession of an answer that I could share with you.

 

[holyrood]

Unless you identify what is unclear or potentially problematic, then there is no basis for a diagnosis, so it would be premature for me to attempt to provide a remedy. I could guess. After guessing, I could write. However, if the initial sequence of words elicits the question “what does it mean?” … then any subsequent attempt to elaborate or clarify can also elicit the same question.

Perhaps I should have asked that question in response to …

If you had provided an answer, then I would be in possession of an answer that I could share with you.

How does your statement relate to the quote of mine you posted?

Are you taking exception to what I said? You seem to think that I made some comment about any member of this board. My best guess is that you think I made any comment about anyone’s standard of behavior.

And I’m not sure how I was supposed to provide an answer when you had not asked a question.

 

[PseuTonym]

… you had not asked a question.

That’s completely true. I simply quoted your words, made a comment, and posted a quote from the Bible.

Here’s another quote:

James 26
“Nobody who fails to keep a tight rein on the tongue can claim to be religious; this is mere self-deception; that person’s religion is worthless.”

No reply is necessary.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

You were a teacher in a school, a nun physically attacked you, and you were fired? I’d be interested in hearing more about that, and also clarification about getting burned by hypocrites protected by the church and how that impacts YOUR credibility with your children. How old are they?

My younger son got baptized as an adult while all this stuff was happening in 2005. He is now lapsed. Both sons are now in their late 20’s.
My main regret is I did not file a police report and instead went to the Superior, thinking that he would apply justice if he knew about what was going on under his nose. I spent a half hour with him telling about other gross irregularities.
The nun was my voice student in a so-called “peace school”. (I could give more precise information in a private message if you want.) This was exactly one week after my father passed away, in another country from where I live, so I was already in a state. I thought coming in to teach would help, instead I was further devastated. The cumulative effect was feeling like I was hit by a truck and run over by a bulldozer for about a year. That nun remained, teaches some subjects while yelling at the kids, and is one of their mascots for the school that enjoys a sterling reputation. They hired another teacher for her instead of proper disciplinary action and I got fired at the end of term.

I’ve also had bad experiences with Catholics. I had a horrible experience teaching in a Catholic school, at the hands of a ‘good Catholic family,’ in fact, a couple of ‘good Catholic’ families. My own family I regard as hypocritical and abusive. I have a friend whose Catholic (or should I say ‘Catholic’) husband was appalling in his treatment of her–she has since left the faith and become Wiccan and blatantly anti-Christian.

I really don’t know what to say except repeat what an astute Anglican minister said to me on this subject more than 25 years ago when I was going on about hypocrites in the Church. He said that without the Church it would be far worse. I pondered on that and realized that indeed, if there are bad people covered by the mantle of Christianity, it is a hellhole outside and my life experience testifies to that.

I do not agree that any of this is a credible reason to leave the Church. This, I think, is a big difference between Protestant and Catholic thought. They are very much about ‘community’ whereas we are more about ‘theology.’ Sure, I’d pick a Catholic church with a great community feel over a less friendly one any day.
But the only credible reason to leave a faith is that it is theologically incorrect.
That individual human beings are fallible is a reflection on individual human beings. In a church of, what, a billion or more people, there are definitely going to be some who aren’t the greatest.
In the meantime, I think we cheat ourselves of the graces of the sacrament and make our own lives harder–not the abusers–when we walk away.I confess, I’m not particularly active in my church or its groups. I keep to myself, largely as a result of the actions of other Catholics, including my own mother. But that’s a far cry from just leaving the faith, the sacraments, and the church altogether.

I get what you are saying but people act out of emotion, not reason. If they were abused by clergy and I was in this predicament more than once, then it would only be natural to associate the abusers with the Church. My upbringing in the Catholic faith did not emphasize so much the joy and love of God but fear of punishment. Also they were on the whole bound up with ritual almost to the extent of the Pharisees, the idea being if they perform all their outward obligations, then they were safe and even better than others.

It was only when I associated with Protestants I began to understand the necessity for a personal commitment that ritual would not exactly cover up. The latter I think was the problem with the clergy around me and that nun in particular was quite an expert on liturgy. I suppose it can be called self-justification and working the system. On the other extreme were those I found in some Protestant churches thought they also could do anything and get away with it because they were already saved, so could err all they want. This is not at least what I was taught in Catholic school that we have to examine ourselves and repent.

 

[holyrood]

That’s completely true. I simply quoted your words, made a comment, and posted a quote from the Bible.

Here’s another quote:

James 26
“Nobody who fails to keep a tight rein on the tongue can claim to be religious; this is mere self-deception; that person’s religion is worthless.”

No reply is necessary.

Thank you for dismissing me from any obligation.

I guess we could trade Bible quotes all day and be mysterious. I prefer to state what I mean upfront.

 

[holyrood]

I really don’t know what to say except repeat what an astute Anglican minister said to me on this subject more than 25 years ago when I was going on about hypocrites in the Church. He said that without the Church it would be far worse. I pondered on that and realized that indeed, if there are bad people covered by the mantle of Christianity, it is a hellhole outside and my life experience testifies to that.

I get what you are saying but people act out of emotion, not reason. If they were abused by clergy and I was in this predicament more than once, then it would only be natural to associate the abusers with the Church. My upbringing in the Catholic faith did not emphasize so much the joy and love of God but fear of punishment. Also they were on the whole bound up with ritual almost to the extent of the Pharisees, the idea being if they perform all their outward obligations, then they were safe and even better than others.

It was only when I associated with Protestants I began to understand the necessity for a personal commitment that ritual would not exactly cover up. The latter I think was the problem with the clergy around me and that nun in particular was quite an expert on liturgy. I suppose it can be called self-justification and working the system. On the other extreme were those I found in some Protestant churches thought they also could do anything and get away with it because they were already saved, so could err all they want. This is not at least what I was taught in Catholic school that we have to examine ourselves and repent.

I’m very sorry about your experience.

I agree with you on all these things–and ironically, I suppose it’s exactly why I feel the opposite of what you stated about valid reasons for good people to leave. I have thought the same thing–it would be far worse without the Christian teachings of mercy, forgiveness, etc, without the graces of the Church, the sacraments, and so on. So I don’t see lousy people in the church as a good reason to leave.

And yes, I agree people act out of emotion, not reason. And that’s exactly why a conversation like this is important and good. I have known good people of every and no faith and bad people of every and no faith. I could accept or reject any faith or lack thereof, based on who I choose to judge faith by on any given day. Which obviously wouldn’t work very well! So there’s only reason left in the end.

And I do see a different focus in Protestantism. My son has recently recommitted, enthusiastically, to his faith, and made the comment that he sees a passionate *love *for Jesus in the Protestants he knows–and I am curious about that difference. We seem to talk a bit more about God the Father, while they seem to focus almost entirely on Jesus.

I think we all have things we can learn from each other and the mistake is in believing all people of a given faith are…whatever.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I’m very sorry about your experience.

Thanks but most probably embedded in there are some life lessons. I just hope I recognize and become better because of them.

I agree with you on all these things–and ironically, I suppose it’s exactly why I feel the opposite of what you stated about valid reasons for good people to leave. I have thought the same thing–it would be far worse without the Christian teachings of mercy, forgiveness, etc, without the graces of the Church, the sacraments, and so on. So I don’t see lousy people in the church as a good reason to leave.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding or I didn’t express myself well as I think we essentially agree. I don’t think people should leave because of negative experiences with parishioners or clergy. Hopefully, one can and should find a better environment.

And yes, I agree people act out of emotion, not reason. And that’s exactly why a conversation like this is important and good. I have known good people of every and no faith and bad people of every and no faith. I could accept or reject any faith or lack thereof, based on who I choose to judge faith by on any given day. Which obviously wouldn’t work very well! So there’s only reason left in the end.

And I do see a different focus in Protestantism. My son has recently recommitted, enthusiastically, to his faith, and made the comment that he sees a passionate *love *for Jesus in the Protestants he knows–and I am curious about that difference. We seem to talk a bit more about God the Father, while they seem to focus almost entirely on Jesus.

I think we all have things we can learn from each other and the mistake is in believing all people of a given faith are…whatever.

In the end it probably boils down to individual understanding and piety. Having been brought up in a quieter time in the Catholic church, where we actually sang Gregorian chant, I am not a big fan of loud glory halleluiah worship. I would even go as far in saying that I even suspect some overly enthusiastic displays like one guy I saw in a Protestant environment who was working himself into a trance. There was something phony about him but I wouldn’t say that of everyone.

I think Faith is flying the plane by the controls and not by feeling because feeling can be and often is, faulty. I can’t say I was always in sync with that kind of worship and one of the reasons I left a Protestant church after many years of going there. Catholic worship is more individual but at the same time communal. It doesn’t depend on group manifestations of bubbly feeling.

 

[mikekle]

Thats why we have free will, as long as you do not cause any harm to anyone else, and still do truly believe Christ came and died for us and he is the one true God, I do not see how that could be held against you.

Its up to us if we choose to have a relationship with God, some seem to need to have this in their life, others, not so much. If you find yourself to be happy and content without ‘being religious’, than I cannot see how this would be a problem.