What if it was found out after canonization that a certain saint did not live a saintly life?

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WildCatholic

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Okay, so lets say there was a person who went through all the steps of cannonization, which can take years. Now lets say information was found after canonization that this certain saint didn’t live a saintly life. Maybe they had affairs or didn’t truly believe in God or had other behavior problems that went against the church. Anyway could the church revoke their canonization? Can the church declare a saint later on not to be a saint?
 
No, the Church My not revoke sainthood. Canonization is protected by Papal infallibility.
 
Shoot 'um out of a cannon and de-cannonize them…umm, no, that won’t work.
 
Even setting aside Papal infallibility (for arguments’ sake), the process of canonization takes in a lot of factors, some of which are believed to come from the Father through the Holy Spirit. “test” for sainthood is serious and difficult. Many holy men and women remain “Servants of God”, “Venerable/Heroic in Virtue” or “Blessed” forever. Examples of what may require divine assistance: miracles attributed to the saint’s intercession, spiritual discernment by Church authorities, aside from the Pope. As such, any judgement made by men as to the saint’s life on earth will no longer have the power to take precedence over the canonization. We believe God judged the person already and meant the sainthood to be fulfilled.
 
WildCatholic said:
Okay, so lets say there was a person who went through all the steps of cannonization, which can take years. Now lets say information was found after canonization that this certain saint didn’t live a saintly life. Maybe they had affairs or didn’t truly believe in God or had other behavior problems that went against the church. Anyway could the church revoke their canonization? Can the church declare a saint later on not to be a saint?
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No…as other have said. They are canonized and made saints because they are already in heaven…regardless of the life they lived here…whether known before or after canonization.

Besides, prior to canonization…there is an extensive study of the life of the candidate for sainthood.

St.Augustine…was a sinner and womanizer…before he turned his life around. His mother, St. Monica, prayed for him for 16 years.
 
Nope – Mary Magdalen’s in there! Augustine too!

Oh – I suppose the canonizers knew about their sins in the first place and considered the inspirational nature of their turnaround and their glorious finishes. But I think that there is so much looking INTO proposed saints’ lives to begin with … and such a long wait and consideration of the evidence … even unto there being a “devil’s advocate” arguing against canonization … that this will probably not be a problem.

The Pope does have those keys however … and can bind in heaven what’s bound on earth.
I don’t know if reversing previous canonizations falls into the range of things the Church can’t do (like ordaining women) … but the image of a canonized saint being 86ed from heaven by a sitting Pope is unlikely as it is amusing.

Can you imagine a Pope playing with the keys and locking and unlocking saints at random?



Upstairs: You’re out! You’re back IN! (Like a game of she loves me, she loves me not!) :nope: - don’t think so.

Here we are in 2013 and your question was still “What if …?” instead of “Remember that case where …”. That’s telling.

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=36

Here’s an interesting article on something that happened back in 1969. Some saints were removed from the Church CALENDAR (not unsainted!) for different reasons. There are far more than 365 canonized saints … yet not every day is a saints’ day.

I remember the controversy about St. Christopher at the time. Some legends ABOUT the saints had arisen (like fairy tales?) and got mixed in with what was truly known.

St. Christopher was a martyr … but the most famous story about him may have been a legend (though possibly a fruitful tale!).
 
WildCatholic said:
Okay, so lets say there was a person who went through all the steps of cannonization, which can take years. Now lets say information was found after canonization that this certain saint didn’t live a saintly life. Maybe they had affairs or didn’t truly believe in God or had other behavior problems that went against the church. Anyway could the church revoke their canonization? Can the church declare a saint later on not to be a saint?
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Canonization is an infallible declaration and can never be changed.
Long and extensive investigations are done, and of course miracles are required.

For your information Saint Augustine was a sex addict. His mother St Monica prayed daily for 25 years for his conversion.
 
thistle said:
Canonization is an infallible declaration and can never be changed.
Long and extensive investigations are done, and of course miracles are required.

For your information Saint Augustine was a sex addict. His mother St Monica prayed daily for 25 years for his conversion.
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But what if Augustine had continued to be a sex addict (not saying he was, just playing devil’s advocate) and died in the arms of a prostitute. Or what if we found out Mother Theresa was an atheist who didn’t recant her views (ik she isn’t a saint yet but she will be:)
 
WildCatholic said:
But what if Augustine had continued to be a sex addict (not saying he was, just playing devil’s advocate) and died in the arms of a prostitute. Or what if we found out Mother Theresa was an atheist who didn’t recant her views (ik she isn’t a saint yet but she will be:)
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Remember! Miracles from their intercession must be present. If they weren’t in heaven, the couldn’t intercede. Setting aside souls in Purgatory…not sure how those work.

Also, after all the investigation, and infallibility, they wouldn’t have been canonized in the first place if either of those were the case.
 
WildCatholic said:
Okay, so lets say there was a person who went through all the steps of cannonization, which can take years. Now lets say information was found after canonization that this certain saint didn’t live a saintly life. Maybe they had affairs or didn’t truly believe in God or had other behavior problems that went against the church. Anyway could the church revoke their canonization? Can the church declare a saint later on not to be a saint?
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The Church doesn’t make anyone a Saint. The Church just recognizes that the individual is alive and well and in Heaven.

People sin. Saint Peter lied about knowing Jesus, denied Him. Saint Paul persecuted Christians, probably killed some. How “saintly” is all that?

Saints are not recognized because of their earthly lives, no matter how many miracles they seem to have done. Those miracles have to happen after they have passed. The quality of their lives just makes them candidates. There are surely millions of saints we never heard of.

Bottom line is: Jesus forgives sin. Having sinned in life does not, per se, keep you from Heaven.
 
WildCatholic said:
But what if Augustine had continued to be a sex addict (not saying he was, just playing devil’s advocate) and died in the arms of a prostitute. Or what if we found out Mother Theresa was an atheist who didn’t recant her views (ik she isn’t a saint yet but she will be:)
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The Church investigations find out everything about someone being considered for canonization. Once a person is canonized it is infallible and nothing of what you suggest in your examples is possible.
 
Julia_Mae said:
The Church doesn’t make anyone a Saint. The Church just recognizes that the individual is alive and well and in Heaven.

People sin. Saint Peter lied about knowing Jesus, denied Him. Saint Paul persecuted Christians, probably killed some. How “saintly” is all that?

Saints are not recognized because of their earthly lives, no matter how many miracles they seem to have done. Those miracles have to happen after they have passed. The quality of their lives just makes them candidates. There are surely millions of saints we never heard of.

Bottom line is: Jesus forgives sin. Having sinned in life does not, per se, keep you from Heaven.
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But being in mortal sin, DOES keep you from heaven. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure the Church does a very thorough investigation, but things can fall through the cracks. I understand people sin, its just that some people are unrepentant and it makes me wonder how we can know someone is in heaven. We don’t know who is in hell. It just seems odd to me. Also, what if the miracles are a trick of satan, or are for something different. Just interceding to a saint doesn’t mean a miracle will happen.

I really just want to understand the process. I’m sorry if its wrong to ask questions, but i’d rather question and find the right answers than be like most people and disagree and say the idea of canonizing people is false.
 
Does the Church’s infallibility extend to those Saints who were not formally canonized, but instead were made Saints by popular acclaim?
 
WildCatholic said:
Okay, so lets say there was a person who went through all the steps of canonization, which can take years. Now lets say information was found after canonization that this certain saint didn’t live a saintly life. Maybe they had affairs or didn’t truly believe in God or had other behavior problems that went against the church. Anyway could the church revoke their canonization? Can the church declare a saint later on not to be a saint?
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The canonization process determines whether someone is in heaven and not whether the person always led an exemplary life or was free from defects of character. Some “saints” were removed from the Canon during the pontificate of Paul VI. It wasn’t a commentary on their lives however - they were deemed to have been apocryphal (i.e. legendary rather than historical figures).

I doubt there are errors in the canonization process. Those in the know (above) include it within papal infallibility. For the sake of argument, if there had been any mistakes, it should not harm your faith. Any such error would have occurred centuries ago. For the past several centuries the vetting process has been thorough and rigorous.
 
WildCatholic said:
But being in mortal sin, DOES keep you from heaven. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure the Church does a very thorough investigation, but things can fall through the cracks. I understand people sin, its just that some people are unrepentant and it makes me wonder how we can know someone is in heaven. We don’t know who is in hell. It just seems odd to me. Also, what if the miracles are a trick of satan, or are for something different. Just interceding to a saint doesn’t mean a miracle will happen.
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Regardless of their sins on Earth, mortal sins included, if evidence, on several occasions, demonstrates that they can intercede with miracles resulting, then they must be in Heaven, whatever their sins. If they are in Heaven then they are a saint.

As to mortal sin keeping us from Heaven. If that was the case none of us would ever get there, as I have yet to meet anyone who has not committed a mortal sin. All types of sins can be forgiven by God. It is for God to forgive; it is not for us to decide who is (or is not) forgiven.
 
WildCatholic said:
But being in mortal sin, DOES keep you from heaven.
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You are making rather a lot of assumptions. 1st, the most degenerate sinner is forgiven thgrough reconciliation. Finding out that someone who is a Saint committed serious sins doesn’t mean they are “in” mortal sin when they pass. And, the state of the soul is only known to God. And, God’s Mercy is pretty outrageous, He decides who gets into the Heaven, not us. All we do is recognize it.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure the Church does a very thorough investigation, but things can fall through the cracks. I understand people sin, its just that some people are unrepentant and it makes me wonder how we can know someone is in heaven. We don’t know who is in hell. It just seems odd to me. Also, what if the miracles are a trick of satan, or are for something different. Just interceding to a saint doesn’t mean a miracle will happen.
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You need to read up on the canonization process. There’s a n book called The Miracle Detective. It goes off into investigation of an unapproved apparition, but the beginning is an excellent overview, quite readable, about how the process happens inside the Vatican. I think you can get a used copy for less than $2.
I really just want to understand the process. I’m sorry if its wrong to ask questions
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,

Catholic Answers Forum. Asking questions is sort of the point here. 😉
 
WildCatholic said:
But being in mortal sin, DOES keep you from heaven. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure the Church does a very thorough investigation, but things can fall through the cracks. I understand people sin, its just that some people are unrepentant and it makes me wonder how we can know someone is in heaven. We don’t know who is in hell. It just seems odd to me. Also, what if the miracles are a trick of satan, or are for something different. Just interceding to a saint doesn’t mean a miracle will happen.

I really just want to understand the process. I’m sorry if its wrong to ask questions, but i’d rather question and find the right answers than be like most people and disagree and say the idea of canonizing people is false.
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The Church can NEVER be in error in matters of faith and morals.
 
St. Augustine lived a very sinful life before his conversion. Being a saint does not mean being a goody-two-shoes and never doing anything wrong merely following laws and regulations. That was the problem with the proud pharisees, who never thought of themselves as sinners, proud of their righteousness yet having no mercy or love in their hearts. Being a saint means that a wretched soul has been transformed by God through a death of one’s own self to sin and a complete detachment of things, the world and of life itself. It doesn’t happen overnight, but rather it is a lifelong struggle and transformation. Thus, it is through our weaknesses and passions that we are sanctified when we war against them with the help of God’s *sanctifying *grace, and getting up when we fall.

St. Paul himself expresses his own struggles to avoid sin:

*I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!*
 
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