What if its against my conscience to be Catholic?

[DallasCatholic]

Right, no ordinary book can, but the Bible is not an ordinary book.

Why doesn’t the church continue to canonize its writings now? Why did it stop so early?

I think that you also need to remember that the first Christians did not have a Bible. They had the Septuagint (OT) and that was all until some of the Apostles started writing letters and instructions.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

That’s not entirely true, there were the monophysite and nestorian churches of the east-unless you’re not counting them as christians.

The Mennonites often point to the Waldenses in the 12th century and they maintain that there were small groups aside from the Catholic church that were Christian.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Because the Apostles died. Canon is OT Scripture which we got from our Elder brothers in the faith and NT which is the writings of the apostles. You won’t find any of the ECF in canon.

Did some authority die with the apostles also? Why wasn’t anything after the apostles deemed inspired enough to be canon?

 

[amills]

As a Mennonite, I felt invigorated and inspired to live a Christian life with zeal and charity… I truly felt alive. As a Catholic, I just feel dead. I go to church almost daily, we pray the rosary as a family, I pray it alone, morning and evening prayer, the Divine Mercy, we go to confession weekly, I watch EWTN, watch the archived stuff and the Scott Hahn audios online yet it all seems very, very wrong to me… Not just the devotions (which seem rather distracting to me), but the doctrines themselves; even though I seem to understand them as I study them, they still seem wrong to me.

I suggest you analyze this just a bit. What was it about the Mennoites that made you feel so alive! What is it about the Catholic Church that makes you feel dead?

Now let me make an observation - if I did the things you describe above as a Catholic I think I would feel somewhat like you describe. How do you live your faith?? Do you feed the hungry, cloth the poor, help the downtroddened? There is much more to faith than prayer life. Faith must be lived? It must be shared through our actions.

 

[DallasCatholic]

Did some authority die with the apostles also? Why wasn’t anything after the apostles deemed inspired enough to be canon?

Because the Apostles (with the exception of Paul) were first hand witnesses, anything else would be heresay. Even Paul had first hand experience…of a more divine nature. So yes, some authority did die with the Apostles.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I suggest you analyze this just a bit. What was it about the Mennoites that made you feel so alive! What is it about the Catholic Church that makes you feel dead?

Now let me make an observation - if I did the things you describe above as a Catholic I think I would feel somewhat like you describe. How do you live your faith?? Do you feed the hungry, cloth the poor, help the downtroddened? There is much more to faith than prayer life. Faith must be lived? It must be shared through our actions.

I agree. I just don’t seem to have what I had before that inspired me. I’m avoiding scripture (aside from mass and breviary) b/c I’m afraid I will re-read into it what I did before that caused me to leave. I feel weighed-down by everything about the church. I constantly feel pulled to do so many things and it leaves me empty to do much good elsewhere. I’m trying to feed myself by doing good “catholic” things so that I will get re-motivated, but I just feel depressed and dead. It doesn’t help that I’m going against my conscience by doing all of these things, which is probably why I feel this way in the first place. When I made the decision to come back, it was with real hesitancy and depression, and the uneasiness has never left. It just feels really wrong to me, although I know I’m not supposed to rely on my feelings about it. I just don’t know if my faith is strong enough to go against so many things.

 

[kell0618]

I was hoping that you would let some of the ‘dust’ settle, but if you really need to keep going for now, I suggest you read the following article. One excerpt in regard to Tradition and Scripture should ring very loudly:

How do we know which books belong in the Bible? The early Church’s answer was: Those books which are apostolic belong in the canon of scripture. If a book had been handed down by the apostles as scripture (like the books of the Old Testament) of if it was written by one of the apostles or their associates (like the books of the New Testament), it belonged in the Bible. Apostolicity was thus the test for canonicity.

First, those books were reckoned as apostolic which agreed with the teachings the apostles handed on to the Church. Gnostic scriptures and other writings which did not agree with the apostolic tradition were rejected out of hand.

Second, those books were regarded as apostolic which were preached in the various churches as being from the pen of an apostle or the associate of an apostle – not just its doctrines, but the book itself. If a given work was not regarded as apostolic and was not preached as such in the churches, then it was rejected. This was also an appeal to tradition because it looked to the tradition of the churches as a guide for apostolicity. If the tradition of the Churches did not recognize a book as apostolic, it was not canonized.

Imagine if the gnostic books which claimed for one that Jesus was not God were included in the Canon of the Bible?! Those books failed the test; they went against everything taught by the Apostles. By the hand of the Apostles or one of their associates, our book was written.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Because the Apostles (with the exception of Paul) were first hand witnesses, anything else would be heresay. Even Paul had first hand experience…of a more divine nature. So yes, some authority did die with the Apostles.

Then isn’t any interpretation without authority too?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Did some authority die with the apostles also?

No. It was passed down to their successors. If they did not pass authority, how could the Church have the power to condemned Arianism, Nectorianism, defined Trinity doctrine, canonized 27 NT as part of Scripture along side with the OT.

Why wasn’t anything after the apostles deemed inspired enough to be canon?

Because the manuscripts that were canonized needed certain conditions.

1. They have to be written by the Apostles, or their companions.
2. They have to be used in the liturgical worship.

I forgot what the third one was, but I believe it had to held the same belief held by most church leaders like bishops who were taught by the Apostles. Early Christians believed that Jesus is God made flesh, that he is the Son of the Living God, that he came into the world. The four Gospels adhere to this, and the OT fortold of this.

This belief was received by the bishops from the Apostles’ own lips.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I was hoping that you would let some of the ‘dust’ settle, but if you really need to keep going for now, I suggest you read the following article. One excerpt in regard to Tradition and Scripture should ring very loudly:

Imagine if the gnostic books which claimed for one that Jesus was not God were included in the Canon of the Bible?! Those books failed the test; they went against everything taught by the Apostles. By the hand of the Apostles or one of their associates, our book was written.

It sounds like the Catholic church is saying what some Protestant churches believe: that the church died with the apostles. Everything after the apostles was heresay.

It still doesn’t clarify how it matters to have a rule of measure/canon if it is up to a specific church to tell us how to interpret that rule of measure.

I will read the article in its entirety tonight if able…

Thank you.

Btw, I don’t know how to let dust settle . This is my way of doing that. I need some personal interaction with people about this for a change

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

No. It was passed down to their successors. If they did not pass authority, how could the Church have the power to condemned Arianism, Nectorianism, defined Trinity doctrine, canonized 27 NT as part of Scripture along side with the OT.

Was it the church that had the power? Or was it the Word?(the rule of measure) Doesn’t the Word of God have the power to condemn heresy? Without it we wouldn’t know what heresy is. It is “a two-edged sword”. Was it something post-apostolic that had the power to condemn it? Or was it God’s own words?

 

[Della]

I think they had more to go on than I do. They witnessed Jesus’ miracles. I’ve got 2000+ years of history to dig through…

No, you don’t have to do that. We have the Church the Apostles founded. The Church that compiled the Bible. The Church that Jesus founded on the Apostles. We don’t need to know all the details of history to know that. That’s for historians and scholars to work on. We have the Nicene Creed that the Church gave us in the 4th century that it still holds to today–that we say at every Mass. And most importantly, we have the Real Presence of Jesus in the Sacrament of the Altar. What more could anyone want?

 

[kell0618]

I think it would be of great help to us if you spell out what it is about the Mennonite Church that attracts you so strongly. Just list them out there whether they be teachings, environment, culture, whatever. What is in the Bible that draws you there instead of to the Catholic Church? What are your struggles?

Infant Baptism?
Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Papal authority v. congregational authority?

We’re here to help and support. It is only human to question. I have one last suggestion: don’t force the ‘Catholic’ things for now while you are struggling unless they are heartfelt, such as: rosary, divine mercy chaplet, etc. Just plain old prayer to God, both speaking and listening, is perhaps what you need most right now.

Let’s figure out if it is your conscience speaking or your personal preferences.

I’m here for you and am offering up prayers for you now. :console:

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I think it would be of great help to us if you spell out what it is about the Mennonite Church that attracts you so strongly. Just list them out there whether they be teachings, environment, culture, whatever. What is in the Bible that draws you there instead of to the Catholic Church? What are your struggles?

Infant Baptism?
Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Papal authority v. congregational authority?

We’re here to help and support. It is only human to question. I have one last suggestion: don’t force the ‘Catholic’ things for now while you are struggling unless they are heartfelt, such as: rosary, divine mercy chaplet, etc. Just plain old prayer to God, both speaking and listening, is perhaps what you need most right now.

Let’s figure out if it is your conscience speaking or your personal preferences.

I’m here for you and am offering up prayers for you now. :console:

Thanks so much What more could I ask for?

I will list them. Its going to take a bit though, and I’ve got a house full of hungry children right now. I’ll see what I can draw up before too late…

 

[andzy]

Was it the church that had the power? Or was it the Word?(the rule of measure) Doesn’t the Word of God have the power to condemn heresy?

The Word of God is above everything else. But don’t forget, that the Word of God is not just written words in the Bible. God speaks through both the Church and the Scripture. Otherwise Jesus would have had instructed the Apostles to write the Bible or given it to them. Instead, He commanded to them to preach and lead His flock, and also promised never to leave them.
Regarding your doubts: pray, and trust God that He will guide you in His ways, and pray and always keep an open heart. And yes, did I mention: pray? And have other people pray for guidance for you. (I will also pray for you.)
Andris

 

[Cat]

I am new to your story.

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

I have read with interest all the good responses so far, and think that a lot of wise people have given you good advice.

A few things strike me as I read. I may be totally off, BTW, and if I am, I apologize. I’m not a very good analyst.

1. It seems that you are all alone. You speak of your conscience, your personal experiences, your struggles, your interpretations. Everything is you.

Do you not have any relationships with real people in your real, off-line life?

The Church is brothers and sisters in Christ. Perhaps you have been s-c-r-e-w-e-d by Christians. I was, too. After many years of enthusiastic ministry, I and my family were thrown out of our Evangelical Free Church and shunned by the congregation. We were accused of terrible things by a woman minister who lied about us. (A year later, she was fired from that church after they caught her in a lie.) No one has ever come back to us from that church and apologized. They didn’t even call to see how we were doing.

We didn’t do well. Church had been our whole life. After we were thrown out, we had no friends, no activities, no life.

To this day, my two daughters don’t trust church, and it took me a long time before I would even open the Bible and read it. After all, that EFree Church had used the Bible to justify its cruel treatment of us.

So I certainly am not suggesting that you trust every Christian you meet. A lot of them are devils in disguise.

But I believe that you must seek communion with Christians. You will see Christ in others. You will receive support, prayer, and help from others. You will be encouraged when you see how others struggle through their trials and doubts, and overcome their struggles. Read Ephesians 4. God gave Christians spiritual gifts to BUILD EACH OTHER UP IN THE LORD. If you are not around other Christians, they will not be able to build you up.

1. Another thing that strikes me is that you think that you are far away from the truth. I would say that you have more faith than any of us. Even though you are not receiving any personal “rewards” or “highs” or “musical mountains” or “good stroking,” you still believe. You don’t just accept everything you’re spoon-fed, you question everything. That’s OK. Your faith is an example to us all.
2. I sense a bit of “Protestant-envy,” or perhaps it could be labelled “other side of the fence” longing. You seem to think that some group–but not YOUR group–has it all. You like the way you “feel” when you’re with Protestants. I recommend that you stop envying the Protestants–they don’t have anything that the Catholic Church doesn’t have, they just play louder rock music. I recommend that you stop sighing after the greener grass that you think is on the other side of the fence, because believe me, it’s the same old cow-fodder. And above all, I recommend that you dismiss your feelings. They are unreliable and not to be trusted. Listen to these wise people who are urging you to study.

 

[StCsDavid]

Lol - yes, that certainly is true! (no pun intended), but we can’t walk around just accepthing things b/c someone says they are true, now can we?

Faith is the realization of all that is hoped for, and evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1.

If you have the gift of faith, then you can accept that what Christ has established is true. You can accept that what Peter’s successor has said is true. There’s actually a good amount of freedom in that. Why would one enslave oneself to one’s fallible interpretation of scripture, or tradition, or theological precepts, when one has an infallible source which are the teachings of the Catholic faith.

It truly is not good conscience that is the road block here, but rather faith. Would you argue that the opposite of faith is doubt? I would posit the opposite of faith is certainty. If you have certainty you don’t need faith. Doubt is a part of faith.

Pray for faith.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

1. It seems that you are all alone.Everything is you.

What else is there to tell about? Ultimately, its not about community, its about God/Truth.

Do you not have any relationships with real people in your real, off-line life?

Not many. When I left the Catholic church I kept in contact with a few people from the parish, but I never felt I had anything in common with anyone else I had met. Other parents my own age led very busy lives outside of church and I never felt comfortable in conversation with them. That is one thing I do miss. Any of the Mennonites were always spiritually-minded; ready to discuss matters of faith. They didn’t let the world consume them like other people do. After i made my confession to return to the church, father told me i must break all my ties with the mennonite community or i’d be tempted to go back. I did so. I told father that I don’t know any orthodox Christians other than them and he just said “they’re out there”. It can’t be about relationships or community for me b/c I simply don’t have it as a Catholic.

Yes, the grass is much greener on the other side.

Put the community/relationship factor together with the fact that I still only see Mennonitism (and like churches: bretheren, hutterite, etc…) in the Bible and I can’t help feel like I’ve made a terrible mistake.

But again, it’s not about them, its about Christ. When I let them know I needed to go back to the Catholic church, the first thing one of the women asked is: “why would you want to go back to a church where the people don’t live their faith?” and I told her its not about my personal relationshipsm/community or what other people do. Its about Christ and the truth, plain and simple.

I’m sorry to hear about your own experience. Sounds heart-wrenching.

But I believe that you must seek communion with Christians. Ephesians 4. God gave Christians spiritual gifts to BUILD EACH OTHER UP IN THE LORD.

Yes, I received those things when I was a part of the Mennonite community (in fact, I still do. They still write to me for encouragement and pray for me in their prayer meetings and so forth.)

Your faith is an example to us all.

Wow, that’s amazing to me. Thank you. I’m just looking to know and do God’s will, that’s all. I’m sure you do the same.

1. I sense a bit of “Protestant-envy,” … they just play louder rock music

not where I’ve been! in fact, they don’t use any musical instrumentation at all.

And above all, I recommend that you dismiss your feelings. They are unreliable and not to be trusted.

agreed.

Listen to these wise people who are urging you to study.

(sigh…) I’m beginning to think I’m just too dense to understand what I ought to. Of course I’ll continue to study. In the meantime though, I’m going against so many things I believe…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Was it the church that had the power? Or was it the Word?(the rule of measure) Doesn’t the Word of God have the power to condemn heresy? Without it we wouldn’t know what heresy is. It is “a two-edged sword”. Was it something post-apostolic that had the power to condemn it? Or was it God’s own words?

Jesus gave Peter, the power to bind and loose, so the Church granted authority by God have the power to condemned heresy.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

The Word of God is above everything else. But don’t forget, that the Word of God is not just written words in the Bible. God speaks through both the Church and the Scripture. Otherwise Jesus would have had instructed the Apostles to write the Bible or given it to them. Instead, He commanded to them to preach and lead His flock, and also promised never to leave them.

But the fact that you recognize scripture as inspired by God, and infallible, proves that Jesus did instruct them to write the Bible, possibly b/c they wouldn’t be around forever to do that preaching and leading personally. He wanted us to have something we could rely on so we wouldn’t have to take others’ words for it. The fact that everything post-apostolic isn’t considered canonizable demonstrates this IMO.

Regarding your doubts: pray, and trust God that He will guide you in His ways, and pray and always keep an open heart. And yes, did I mention: pray? And have other people pray for guidance for you. (I will also pray for you.)
Andris

Thanks so much. Am praying… and appreciate everyones prayers.