What if its against my conscience to be Catholic?

[dbacks5439]

But the fact that you recognize scripture as inspired by God, and infallible, proves that Jesus did instruct them to write the Bible, possibly b/c they wouldn’t be around forever to do that preaching and leading personally. He wanted us to have something we could rely on so we wouldn’t have to take others’ words for it. The fact that everything post-apostolic isn’t considered canonizable demonstrates this IMO. Thanks so much. Am praying… and appreciate everyones prayers.

If Jesus did want them to write, then why is it that the earliest Gospel to be written (Mark) was around 70AD, 40 years after Christ’s resurrection? Jesus constantly told the apostles not to tell anyone what just happened. You won’t find anywhere where Jesus instructed them to write anything. How do you come to this conclusion?

 

[angiegirl67]

Maybe I’m a very simple person but, to me it is very simple…The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years. For 1050 of those years it was the only church. For many of those years there were people that died to keep the Catholic Church pure. It is the church that makes the most sense to me. It was here in the beginning right after Christ died and it is still here. Maybe that is just to easy but, for me it doesn’t have to be tricky or hard. Also, if Christ instituted the Church and you believe that; what happen up until the Reformation? Did He abandon his Church till then? No. Christ said that he would never abandon us. I believe that He has always been with us since the beginning.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I think it would be of great help to us if you spell out what it is about the Mennonite Church that attracts you so strongly. Just list them out there whether they be teachings, environment, culture, whatever. What is in the Bible that draws you there instead of to the Catholic Church? What are your struggles?

Infant Baptism?
Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Papal authority v. congregational authority?

Well, its just about everything. I understand why the church teaches what it does, but I still maintain that many of them contradict scripture. I will list a few, but I mainly wanted to discuss conscience and not get too into the apologetics…

Eucharist is certainly one issue. I have a difficult time believing Jesus meant John 6 literally. I know the Catholic arguments. I see possible evidence of real presence in some ECF writings but see also the possibility that those statements are also symbolic or not apostolic teachings to begin with (we don’t have to believe everything the ECFs wrote, even from a Catholic standpoint…).

Baptism and confirmation is another issue. I think many (certainly not all) Catholics see this as just a ritual and not the mature, personal decision and commitment that it ought to be. I speak from experience and personal witness. Confirmation was, for me, and my peers, “graduation day”. We had little intention of every going back to church and most of us didn’t. Believer’s baptism, however, in my personal witness, does work. I’ve seen youth raised in the love of the Lord and go on to profess their faith in Christ and continue to live out the gospels in a radical way. Yes, I’m sure there are Catholic who are doing it right, and likewise, Protestants that fall away after their believer’s baptism. I’m talking about the community I personally experienced in the Mennonite congregation. I’ve never seen such faith live on and thrive within the family and community like that!

I still believe very much in separation, nonconformity, uninvolvment with politics…

Oh, headcovering is also an issue. Perhaps not a big one, but it seems like blatant disregard for an inspired, biblical prescription for the church to have let this practice just about disappear, especially in America.

Idolatry. I hate to add this one, but it’s one of my fears. Again, I understand Catholic teaching about statues etc and the incarnation and all that, but we are supposed to abstain from even the appearance of evil. There are many Catholic practices that make Protestants uncomfortable in this area. Along the same line of thinking is a fear of reciting the same prayers over and over (rosary), praying to anyone other than the Father… There’s so much more, but I can’t get into all of it. And like I said, its not that I don’t understand what the church teaches, it just doesn’t convince me, that’s all.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

If Jesus did want them to write, then why is it that the earliest Gospel to be written (Mark) was around 70AD, 40 years after Christ’s resurrection? Jesus constantly told the apostles not to tell anyone what just happened. You won’t find anywhere where Jesus instructed them to write anything. How do you come to this conclusion?

If you believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then you have to believe that Jesus wanted them to write.

 

[dbacks5439]

If you believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then you have to believe that Jesus wanted them to write.

Historically, nothing was written about Jesus or His ministry for 20 years after His resurrection. Biblically, there is nowhere you will find Jesus commanding the apostles to write.
Jesus never commanded Paul to write. He never told the author of Mark to write the Gospel according to Mark. By inspired, the author feels compelled to write, letting his faculties to be used by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible, with man as the instrument to write. Until 70AD, the knowledge of Jesus was passed by word of mouth. Romans 10:8 shows that it need not be written to be inspired.

 

[CollegeKid]

The Mennonites often point to the Waldenses in the 12th century and they maintain that there were small groups aside from the Catholic church that were Christian.

I wouldn’t take any appeals to the Waldenses or other heretical groups that seriously.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Maybe I’m a very simple person but, to me it is very simple…The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years. For 1050 of those years it was the only church. For many of those years there were people that died to keep the Catholic Church pure. It is the church that makes the most sense to me. It was here in the beginning right after Christ died and it is still here. Maybe that is just to easy but, for me it doesn’t have to be tricky or hard. Also, if Christ instituted the Church and you believe that; what happen up until the Reformation? Did He abandon his Church till then? No. Christ said that he would never abandon us. I believe that He has always been with us since the beginning.

Well, there’s a lot to respond to here. I too am a simple person (hard to believe huh?). Simplicity is a big Mennonite trait! They take a simple approach to interpreting the Bible and applying it to their lives.

Firstly, I don’t know that the CC today is the same “catholic” church over the whole of 2000 years. I understand that it may have developed into what it is today, but see possibly that somewhere in history it didn’t hold to the apostolic traditions we see in scripture. I don’t believe for 1050 years the CC was the only church. There were other Christians besides the CC. The fact that people died for what they believed in isn’t proof enough for me, since many protestants also died for their faith. Being willing to die for your faith only proves the faith of the person, but not the truth of that faith. I also don’t believe that the reformation re-established the true church. Perhaps either there were small groups holding fast to the true teachings throughout those 2000 years (“the gate is narrow and the way is straight, and few there are that find it”). The fact that the most widely visible church in those times was the CC isn’t proof to me that it is, or remained to be, Christ’s church.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Historically, nothing was written about Jesus or His ministry for 20 years after His resurrection. Biblically, there is nowhere you will find Jesus commanding the apostles to write.

I’m not sure what you are trying to make me see here. Perhaps, biblically, we don’t find Jesus commanding the apostles to write, but there are instances, biblically, where we don’t find God commanding prophets, for instnace, to write. I’m not sure what you are trying to show by this. I trust that we have to have some level of faith in the writers of those scriptures to believe that they were inspired by God. Likewise there must be some level of faith in the men that God used to compile them and pronounce them “canon”. I also think the scriptures speak for themselves as to their inspiration. The Word of God certainly does “burn within” and when followed, leads to righteous and Godly living. Not the perfect test for infallibility, I know…

Jesus never commanded Paul to write. He never told the author of Mark to write the Gospel according to Mark. By inspired, the author feels compelled to write, letting his faculties to be used by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible, with man as the instrument to write.

and since the HS is God, and since the HS made the author “feel compelled” to write, in essence, God did command the writings. Actually, there are instances in the NT where the writer says he is told to write; where he announces that he is speaking under inspiration. Certainly Revelations is one of them. Even in at least one of the Epistles.

Until 70AD, the knowledge of Jesus was passed by word of mouth. Romans 10:8 shows that it need not be written to be inspired.

Perphaps in apostolic times it didn’t need to be written, but the fact that the apostles saw a need to write, and the fact that the church saw the need to make those writings the “rule of measure” says to me that the apostles and the early church believed that without those writings the church would most likely go astray and one could never know what the original teachings were. No one would have anything to compare new and heretical teachings to.

 

[StCsDavid]

If you believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then you have to believe that Jesus wanted them to write.

Why? Jesus is part of the Trinity. Could not the authors have been inspired by the Holy Spirit side of God?

 

[dbacks5439]

I’m not sure what you are trying to make me see here. Perhaps, biblically, we don’t find Jesus commanding the apostles to write, but there are instances, biblically, where we don’t find God commanding prophets, for instnace, to write. I’m not sure what you are trying to show by this. I trust that we have to have some level of faith in the writers of those scriptures to believe that they were inspired by God. Likewise there must be some level of faith in the men that God used to compile them and pronounce them “canon”. I also think the scriptures speak for themselves as to their inspiration. The Word of God certainly does “burn within” and when followed, leads to righteous and Godly living. Not the perfect test for infallibility, I know… and since the HS is God, and since the HS made the author “feel compelled” to write, in essence, God did command the writings. Actually, there are instances in the NT where the writer says he is told to write; where he announces that he is speaking under inspiration. Certainly Revelations is one of them. Even in at least one of the Epistles. Perphaps in apostolic times it didn’t need to be written, but the fact that the apostles saw a need to write, and the fact that the church saw the need to make those writings the “rule of measure” says to me that the apostles and the early church believed that without those writings the church would most likely go astray and one could never know what the original teachings were. No one would have anything to compare new and heretical teachings to.

You contradicted yourself by saying that some prophets weren’t commanded to write, and then you say the opposite, using my reasoning.

The point I’m making is that you are giving off a vibe that tells me you believe in sola scriptura. I am refuting that.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Why? Jesus is part of the Trinity. Could not the authors have been inspired by the Holy Spirit side of God?

Either way, it is God-inspired.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

You contradicted yourself by saying that some prophets weren’t commanded to write, and then you say the opposite, using my reasoning.

The point I’m making is that you are giving off a vibe that tells me you believe in sola scriptura. I am refuting that.

Please, help me out then. I don’t see a contradiction. I’m not sure I believe in sola scriptura either (not sure I would label Mennonites as such either)…

I didn’t say that prophets weren’t commanded to write, but rather, that we don’t see them telling us that God is commanding them to write. That was why I went into the shpiel about having some level of faith in the author and the people who considered it inspired…

What is the opposite that I am saying using your line of reasoning? That I believe in tradition? That I have to trust that God used people? (other than the apostles). I don’t have a problem with admitting that. I also believe that God uses people today, from all religions and walks of life in fact, to bring about his designs. I definately don’t believe the Bible dropped out of heaven and into our laps! I am questioning the purpose of pronouncing the Scriptures as a “rule of measure” (which was the purpose of making them “canon” in the first place), if we were going to have to have recourse to the church as the rule of measure for The “rule of measure” (get it?)

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

oops… hit ‘submit too soon’ on my last post. I’m sure that didn’t make a whole lot of sense…

IOW, the church, in canonizing scripture, said “here is what we need to measure everything by to know if it is true or not”, but then it said “but no one but the church can use this ‘ruler’ b/c only the church knows how to measure with it”.

There, I hope that clarified it

 

[dbacks5439]

oops… hit ‘submit too soon’ on my last post. I’m sure that didn’t make a whole lot of sense…

IOW, the church, in canonizing scripture, said “here is what we need to measure everything by to know if it is true or not”, but then it said “but no one but the church can use this ‘ruler’ b/c only the church knows how to measure with it”.

There, I hope that clarified it

That is true. Only the Church (Magisterium) can correctly interpret the scripture. What is unique is that Jesus promised us that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. So when the Magisterium interprets scripture, it is able to do so without error because the Holy Spirit protects them from interpreting it wrong. That’s where we get Tradition. Tradition is the light that allows you and I to see the scripture through the eyes of the Church. That way, we read and we can interpret without error as well, but only if we use Tradition.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Thanks for your responses.

Like I said, I do realize that it is my own personal interpretation that just seems to jive so perfectly with anabaptists, but likewise, if I see validity in the claims of the Catholic church, why should I trust my opinion about that either? If I can fool myself in reading scripture, can’t I just as easily fool myself in my reading of the ECFs or the catechism?

I guess years of doubting have led me to disbelieve just about everything. I hardly believe in anything anymore. I know as Catholics we shouldn’t base our faith on experience either, but I know that as a Catholic I feel like I am swallowed up in a big black hole, with no motivation in the Christian life. I feel frozen. As a Mennonite, I felt invigorated and inspired to live a Christian life with zeal and charity… I truly felt alive. As a Catholic, I just feel dead. I go to church almost daily, we pray the rosary as a family, I pray it alone, morning and evening prayer, the Divine Mercy, we go to confession weekly, I watch EWTN, watch the archived stuff and the Scott Hahn audios online yet it all seems very, very wrong to me… Not just the devotions (which seem rather distracting to me), but the doctrines themselves; even though I seem to understand them as I study them, they still seem wrong to me.

I know that if I pick up my Bible again and just start reading, that former zeal will come back to me, but so will my prior convictions (not that they’ve ever left really. Just being repressed as I try to follow the church)…

I will talk to a priest. We go to the Franciscans for confession every Saturday.

Take what i call an apologetics break. It can get overwhelming at times. Pray, pray and pray. Go to a spiritual retreat if you can. Check with your diocese. God Bless!

 

[angiegirl67]

Joy to be Catholic,

It seems clear, after reading many of your comments on this thread, that all ANY of us can do for you is to keep you in our prayers.

It is sad when someone who has been given the grace and blessing that comes from the Church, particularly the true gift of Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, CHOOSES to separate themselves from it. Remember, in John Ch. 6 the Apostles themselves said “this is a hard saying”, but understood that there was no where else to go…they would be running from the Truth.

If you are being pulled away from the RCC, constantly questioning and doubting the ONLY Church that has been around for 2000 years (and yes, that is historically accurate), then prayerfully ask yourself…where is this doubt coming from? I don’t think Jesus Christ, God the Father or the Holy Spirit is leading you away from the successors of the Apostles, the Blessed Sacrament, or a healthy spiritual communion with our Blessed Mother, the Angels and the Saints.

You will not conquer this lack of respect and understanding of the authority of the Church through an intellectual discourse alone. Your heart must be open to receiving the grace God offers you in His presence. Mass weekly (if not daily), Eucharistic adoration, Sacred Scripture, the Rosary (which is the truest way to “pray” the Gospel…look closely again at those Mysteries) all can help.

Heretical churches and beliefs have flourished since day one…yours is not a unique situation. But, as others have said earlier, there is only ONE TRUTH…and it isn’t mine and it isn’t yours. It belongs to Him and it has been proclaimed by His Church for 2000 years.

I would ask that all who have read or responded on this thread pray for you during this tough time. Do not give in to those doubts which ARE NOT coming from the Lord. You can prevail.

P.S. Pray before the Blessed Sacrament…it changes lives!

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

That is true. Only the Church (Magisterium) can correctly interpret the scripture. What is unique is that Jesus promised us that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. So when the Magisterium interprets scripture, it is able to do so without error because the Holy Spirit protects them from interpreting it wrong. That’s where we get Tradition. Tradition is the light that allows you and I to see the scripture through the eyes of the Church. That way, we read and we can interpret without error as well, but only if we use Tradition.

I know what you’re saying, but again, its like handing me a ruler and telling me not to use it; that only the church can use it. Maybe its a flawed analogy, but that is how I see it.

Take what i call an apologetics break. It can get overwhelming at times. Pray, pray and pray. Go to a spiritual retreat if you can. Check with your diocese. God Bless!

yes, I’m sure I could use a break on the apologetics. Am praying for sure! Definately can’t manage a spiritual retreat til my kids are grown up I am starting a Catholic bible-study on the book of Job next week though. I’m not giving up on the Catholic church at all. I just don’t know how commited I feel toward it. I know that I can’t throw away what I believe and just believe something else. In the meantime, I’m not sure I can stay away from the Mennonite church and community either, but I’ve been avoiding them all this time b/c I was told to. They really inspired me and I can’t too easily throw that away either. Not sure what to do at this point.

Thanks so much for “listening” and trying to make sense of all this for me. I’m turning in for now…

Bless You

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Joy to be Catholic,

It seems clear, after reading many of your comments on this thread, that all ANY of us can do for you is to keep you in our prayers.

It is sad when someone who has been given the grace and blessing that comes from the Church, particularly the true gift of Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, CHOOSES to separate themselves from it. Remember, in John Ch. 6 the Apostles themselves said “this is a hard saying”, but understood that there was no where else to go…they would be running from the Truth.

If you are being pulled away from the RCC, constantly questioning and doubting the ONLY Church that has been around for 2000 years (and yes, that is historically accurate), then prayerfully ask yourself…where is this doubt coming from? I don’t think Jesus Christ, God the Father or the Holy Spirit is leading you away from the successors of the Apostles, the Blessed Sacrament, or a healthy spiritual communion with our Blessed Mother, the Angels and the Saints.

You will not conquer this lack of respect and understanding of the authority of the Church through an intellectual discourse alone. Your heart must be open to receiving the grace God offers you in His presence. Mass weekly (if not daily), Eucharistic adoration, Sacred Scripture, the Rosary (which is the truest way to “pray” the Gospel…look closely again at those Mysteries) all can help.

Heretical churches and beliefs have flourished since day one…yours is not a unique situation. But, as others have said earlier, there is only ONE TRUTH…and it isn’t mine and it isn’t yours. It belongs to Him and it has been proclaimed by His Church for 2000 years.

I would ask that all who have read or responded on this thread pray for you during this tough time. Do not give in to those doubts which ARE NOT coming from the Lord. You can prevail.

P.S. Pray before the Blessed Sacrament…it changes lives!

I caught this post just as I was ready to quit for the night (must have posted right before me).
Your last line here strikes a chord. I once had such an intense belief in the Eucharist. I often spent time before the Blessed Sacrament. There is just no longer any way for me to do that. I have many small children and no one to care for them except my husband, but he isn’t available to watch them until adoration ends. I used to live close to a chapel that had adoration every day, but now the only place I can go only does it once a month, and only during the hours my husband works. Our parish is trying to build a center and one area of it is going to be a chapel with adoration available. Don’t know if it will ever be available at a time I will be able to visit sans children (otherwise I’d be too distrated for it to be fruitful), but I look forward to that. The time of my life I was most certain of my faith and devout as a Catholic, I spent a lot of time in adoration. It is the strongest link I can find that points me to the Catholic church.

Bless You

 

[Atemi]

My main question is: I’m not the smartest, and I am easily fooled. I admit that my interpretation of anything is not infallible. My evaluation of a church’s beliefs may be just as fallible as my understanding of scripture. Do you see my problem here???

You know you say that you are not the smartest, but I must say that this piece of wisdom you speak of above runs circles around many of the smatest people I know.

You are exactly right.

Our evaluations of any facts, whether a church’s teachings or Scripture itself, is always fallible. This is the human condition and will never go away until we know as we have been known.

God doesn’t expect you to be infallible or have everything down perfect. Nobody does.

What He wants is a repentant heart and a life that seeks to glorify and follow Him. That is Christianity.

What He has given us in His Word is perfect…so perfect that even a fallible simpleton can find the will of God on its pages. Follow the inspired Word of God with true conviction and faith and you cannot go wrong.

WIll you get some things wrong on occasion?

Yes, we all do.

But you can’t go wrong if you seek after Him and follow His Word which He wrote especially for you. He knew you would ask these questions over an eternity ago.

He is so good, Joy.

I don’t believe that God has made salvation so complicated that we need to understand complex doctrines or go through rituals or sacraments…

Amen.

God has given you a lot of wisdom here.

This is more smarts than some of us get in a lifetime.

Godspeed on your walk with Him.

…

 

[Mannyfit75]

I caught this post just as I was ready to quit for the night (must have posted right before me).
Your last line here strikes a chord. I once had such an intense belief in the Eucharist. I often spent time before the Blessed Sacrament. There is just no longer any way for me to do that. I have many small children and no one to care for them except my husband, but he isn’t available to watch them until adoration ends. I used to live close to a chapel that had adoration every day, but now the only place I can go only does it once a month, and only during the hours my husband works. Our parish is trying to build a center and one area of it is going to be a chapel with adoration available. Don’t know if it will ever be available at a time I will be able to visit sans children (otherwise I’d be too distrated for it to be fruitful), but I look forward to that. The time of my life I was most certain of my faith and devout as a Catholic, I spent a lot of time in adoration. It is the strongest link I can find that points me to the Catholic church.

Bless You

Continue to mediate and pray to the Blessed Sacrament. Jesus is there. If you consider leaving, you will be missing out Jesus’ Real Presence.

He loves you and there are only two churches that has real presence. Catholic and Orthodox.

Protestant service lack real presence of the Lord because they turn Blessed Sacrament as symbolic not real.