What if Jesus didn't die for our sins?

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hellopeople

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Paul’s basic argument in his letters is that Jesus died for our sins, so we do not need to follow the law anymore, and we must follow Jesus because that is the only way we can be righteous in the eyes of the lord. No one can be righteous by the law because no one is capable of following it completely 100% of the time. This is basically the basis of Paul’s message and, due to this, is pretty much the basis of Christianity.

BUT, if Jesus didn’t die for our sins, Paul’s whole argument has nothing to stand on and Christianity as we know it is based on false precepts.

So, I guess my main question is…how do we know that Jesus died for our sins? Please don’t use the reasoning that “the Bible is truth and it was guided by the holy spirit.” Other than that, what evidence do we have for Jesus dieing for our sins?
 
If Jesus didn’t die for you sins, then Paul would not made the argument, and you would not have asked your question.
 
Holy Tradition says that Jesus died for our sins…and Hoy Tradition is the truth and it is guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
Numerous witnesses died testifying that Jesus died for our sins. Why would each one of them be willing to die over a lie?
 
NotWorthy said:
Numerous witnesses died testifying that Jesus died for our sins. Why would each one of them be willing to die over a lie?
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There is an unending chain of Martyrs, from the very witnesses of Christ’s Sacrifice to the present.* “Why would each one of them be willing to die over a lie?”*
 
.you dont need to ask for evidence because it is boldly shown to us,
 
hellopeople said:
No one can be righteous by the law because no one is capable of following it completely 100% of the time.
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Trough Christ we can. That is the whole purpose of Christianity, to make you able to keep the Law. You don’t blame the mirror if you have a spot on your face, but you need the mirror.

Can Satan make you sin? No. Can God keep you from sinning? Yes. Is God more powerful than Satan? Yes. Therefore we can not sin, but we are weak in the sense that we don’t give all our heart, mind and soul to God.
 
hellopeople said:
Paul’s basic argument in his letters is that Jesus died for our sins, so we do not need to follow the law anymore, and we must follow Jesus because that is the only way we can be righteous in the eyes of the lord. No one can be righteous by the law because no one is capable of following it completely 100% of the time. This is basically the basis of Paul’s message and, due to this, is pretty much the basis of Christianity.

BUT, if Jesus didn’t die for our sins, Paul’s whole argument has nothing to stand on and Christianity as we know it is based on false precepts.

So, I guess my main question is…how do we know that Jesus died for our sins? Please don’t use the reasoning that “the Bible is truth and it was guided by the holy spirit.” Other than that, what evidence do we have for Jesus dieing for our sins?
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Other than the testimony of the Apostles and disciples (some of which is recorded in the Bible), there is no evidence. Why do you ask?

Paul himself observed that “if Christ be not raised,” our faith is empty and we are living a pitable lie.

In the end, this is the act of faith - this is what it means to “believe in Jesus.” There’s no value in believing that the man Jesus lived in first century Palestine. That’s just a historical fact, of no more value than believing that Herod the Great was the Roman-appointed puppet king and a very nasty man. There’s no value in believing that Jesus is the Son of God, the demons believed that and confessed it, according to the gospels, yet are clearly not saved by that belief. Saving faith means accepting, by God’s grace, that Jesus’ life, death and resurrection provides for us the means of salvation.
 
“We walk by Faith and not by sight.”

I am reminded of Thomas. I believe he stood in for us all in the Upper Room.

John 20:
24
Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25
So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side,* I will not believe.**"
26
Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”
27
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”
28
Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29
Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”*
 
LindaSK said:
Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
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I think those last words of Jesus are the crux of the matter. Although the message to many is clear that Christ died and rose again, I think God will always allow enough of a shadow of a doubt that one has to still rely on Faith, in order to believe 100%.
 
I just want to make something clear. I am not doubting that Jesus died on the crucifix or even that he was resurrected. These are not things that I am doubting. I am just merely asking, what if this event wasn’t for the forgiveness of our sins. He just died and rose again to show his authority, to show he was divine and the son of God, but his death did not signify the forgiveness of sins. I brought this up recently to my TA in a Biblical Studies class and he said that the belief might have stemmed from the tradition of the last supper. This actually makes a lot of sense. But, if Jesus didn’t “die for our sins” and just believing in his death and resurrection does not bring us salvation, then maybe Christianity is based on false pretenses.

And to those saying “why would martyrs die for a lie” and “people witnessed Jesus dying for his sins”…I would have to respond to that "these martyrs died because they witnessed Jesus’ teachings, his death, and many of them witnessed his resurrection…but you can’t witness someone dieing for our sins…that is metaphysical and theological. Unless Jesus said to his followers when he came back “I have died for your sins…”, which we have no record of, then why is this assumed true. Just from the story you cannot deduce it.

There is a good chance that Jesus revealed this to Paul during the conversion. I am not really sure and Paul is not explicit about it. But, Paul is SURE that Jesus died for our sins so it is definitely a possibility. It is also a possibility, in my mind, that Paul wanted to preach against the law because following the law led him to persecute Christians. This explanation that Jesus died for our sins is a good one to eliminate the law from Christianity.

To be honest I really have no idea. From what I have heard so far, the fact that this belief was deduced from the last supper makes sense. I emailed my professor, who is apparently internationally renowned for his study of Paul and early Christianity (usually associated with a Lutheran interpretation, but in my opinion that is besides the point) and he told me that this view that Jesus died for our sins was very common in the time of Paul. I think I might inquire a bit more about it and ask how he thinks that the belief came to be.

So, in summary, I am not doubting Jesus’ death or resurrection. I am questioning (I wouldn’t even call it doubting really) the theological significance of the events. I should have been more clear.
 
hellopeople said:
I just want to make something clear. I am not doubting that Jesus died on the crucifix or even that he was resurrected. These are not things that I am doubting. I am just merely asking, what if this event wasn’t for the forgiveness of our sins. He just died and rose again to show his authority, to show he was divine and the son of God, but his death did not signify the forgiveness of sins. I brought this up recently to my TA in a Biblical Studies class and he said that the belief might have stemmed from the tradition of the last supper. This actually makes a lot of sense. But, if Jesus didn’t “die for our sins” and just believing in his death and resurrection does not bring us salvation, then maybe Christianity is based on false pretenses.

And to those saying “why would martyrs die for a lie” and “people witnessed Jesus dying for his sins”…I would have to respond to that "these martyrs died because they witnessed Jesus’ teachings, his death, and many of them witnessed his resurrection…but you can’t witness someone dieing for our sins…that is metaphysical and theological. Unless Jesus said to his followers when he came back “I have died for your sins…”, which we have no record of, then why is this assumed true. Just from the story you cannot deduce it.

There is a good chance that Jesus revealed this to Paul during the conversion. I am not really sure and Paul is not explicit about it. But, Paul is SURE that Jesus died for our sins so it is definitely a possibility. It is also a possibility, in my mind, that Paul wanted to preach against the law because following the law led him to persecute Christians. This explanation that Jesus died for our sins is a good one to eliminate the law from Christianity.

To be honest I really have no idea. From what I have heard so far, the fact that this belief was deduced from the last supper makes sense. I emailed my professor, who is apparently internationally renowned for his study of Paul and early Christianity (usually associated with a Lutheran interpretation, but in my opinion that is besides the point) and he told me that this view that Jesus died for our sins was very common in the time of Paul. I think I might inquire a bit more about it and ask how he thinks that the belief came to be.

So, in summary, I am not doubting Jesus’ death or resurrection. I am questioning (I wouldn’t even call it doubting really) the theological significance of the events. I should have been more clear.
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So Jesus would do all that to show us the Son of God is a liar? He said why He came here…
 
hellopeople said:
So, in summary, I am not doubting Jesus’ death or resurrection. I am questioning (I wouldn’t even call it doubting really) the theological significance of the events. I should have been more clear.
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I think I see where you are going. Sorry for my confusion.

It seems that John the Baptist realized the reason for Jesus’ sacrifice.
Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world***.

John equated Jesus’ Sacrifice (remember, it is a Lamb that is sacrificed at the Jewish Passover) with the taking away of our sins.
 
1 John3:
5*
You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.*

John 1:
28
This happened in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God,* who takes away the sin of the world.***

Lamb of God - “* Agnus Dei is a Latin term meaning Lamb of God, and was originally used to refer to Jesus Christ in his role of the perfect sacrificial offering that atones for the sins of humanity in Christian theology, harkening back to ancient Jewish Temple sacrifices.*”
google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=mNg&rls=com.google:en-US:official&defl=en&q=define:Lamb+of+God+&ei=quekS7_1OsP6lweJnfBz&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

1 John 2:
*
1
My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2
He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
3
The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments.
4
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5
But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6
whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.*

1 Peter 2:
21*
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.
22
“He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
23
When he was insulted, he returned no insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten; instead, he handed himself over to the one who judges justly.
24**
He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross**, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.*

I am curious to know what makes you believe He may not have died for our sins. What scripture passages do you feel point to the possibility that that is not why He came and died?
 
NotWorthy said:
I think I see where you are going. Sorry for my confusion.

It seems that John the Baptist realized the reason for Jesus’ sacrifice.
Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world***.

John equated Jesus’ Sacrifice (remember, it is a Lamb that is sacrificed at the Jewish Passover) with the taking away of our sins.
Click to expand...
Seems like a good point. I am going to have to go and read the gospels and see what evidence I can find…and I don’t doubt that it is there.
 
LindaSK said:
I am curious to know what makes you believe He may not have died for our sins. What scripture passages do you feel point to the possibility that that is not why He came and died?
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I haven’t seen any scripture that suggests he didn’t die for our sins, but there really could be no such thing unless it said specifically “Jesus did not die for our sins.”

One also must remember that the gospels were written after Paul’s letters and it is quite possible that the gospel writers would be familiar with Paul’s teachings. It is possible they could have added some things into the gospels to go along with Paul’s message. Really, I have no idea. It is quite interesting to think about though.
 
hellopeople said:
Seems like a good point. I am going to have to go and read the gospels and see what evidence I can find…and I don’t doubt that it is there.
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Well, I do doubt that there is evidence to point to that conclusion.
 
hellopeople said:
I haven’t seen any scripture that suggests he didn’t die for our sins, but there really could be no such thing unless it said specifically “Jesus did not die for our sins.”

One also must remember that the gospels were written after Paul’s letters and it is quite possible that the gospel writers would be familiar with Paul’s teachings. It is possible they could have added some things into the gospels to go along with Paul’s message. Really, I have no idea. It is quite interesting to think about though.
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What about the Old Testament? It is written: *Surely He took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered Him stricken by God,
smitten by Him, and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His wounds we are healed.*
~Isaiah 53:4-5

​
Poetry in the Old Testament and prophecy at the same time. Isn’t it beautiful? Read the first line from the second stanza. What else could it mean? By the way, in context, it can refers to ‘the servant of the Lord’; and according to the characteristics of this ‘servant’, he can be no other than Jesus Christ.
 
Cristian_B said:
What about the Old Testament? It is written: *Surely He took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered Him stricken by God,
smitten by Him, and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His wounds we are healed.*
~Isaiah 53:4-5

​
Poetry in the Old Testament and prophecy at the same time. Isn’t it beautiful? Read the first line from the second stanza. What else could it mean? By the way, in context, it can refers to ‘the servant of the Lord’; and according to the characteristics of this ‘servant’, he can be no other than Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
I am somewhat weary of reading Jesus back into OT passages to be honest.
 
hellopeople said:
I am somewhat weary of reading Jesus back into OT passages to be honest.
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Why?

The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. Take the Old Testament out and the New Testament crumbles, because these two work as a whole.
 
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