What if kids can't be part of the deal?

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LeafByNiggle said:
And if you say no, that they cannot live together, then wouldn’t that be relegating at least one of them to a life of loneliness?
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being single doesn’t mean being lonely. I know many unmarried people who are very social and have a lot of friends.
 
vsedriver said:
being single doesn’t mean being lonely. I know many unmarried people who are very social and have a lot of friends.
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Yes, but that was by their own choice. Some people adapt very well to that lifestyle. Some do not. For those that do not, it is devastating to be told they can never share their life with another.
 
Bookcat said:
it is not just scandal too I would add.

They are simply not husband and wife.

And two friends…one being male and one being female should not be living together…unless they really are brother and sister.
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But scandal was given as the reason that the two should not live together. Now that you have abandoned that justification, what other justification can you give, other than to say “the Church says so”?

And while we are at it, what about the case of two males living together? Would not that lead some to assume they are homosexual and engaging in that illicit activity? And I would really like to know why the brother and sister are given a pass to cohabitation, especially when, as I said before, they are of the of the age that is most associated with sexual activity?
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Yes, but that was by their own choice. Some people adapt very well to that lifestyle. Some do not. For those that do not, it is devastating to be told they can never share their life with another.
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yes we get devastating news all the time…your wife is dieing cancer…you will not have her here for long…your parents where killed in a plane crash etc

This is not to make light of things…but to see that yes…there is evil of various kinds. And we do what we can to love each other and help each other…but there are limits here.

And our hope is not living in perfect happiness on this pilgrimage here…but of true life in Christ and Resurrection and heaven…and the new heavens and new earth…where all tears are wiped away.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
So give another.
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One is not to engage in cohabitation of opposite sexes …such is for husband and wife…and family.

One is in a way living a lie…living as if married when one is not.

One can be tempted and sin in in various ways.
 
Bookcat said:
One is not to engage in cohabitation of opposite sexes …such is for husband and wife…and family.
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That is not a reason. It is just a restatement of the restriction.
One is in a way living a lie…living as if married when one is not.
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That is only true if one already accepts the fact that cohabitation is only for married people. So your reasoning is circular. It is like saying “cohabitation is not allowed for unmarried people because it is only for married people.” Clearly circular.
One can be tempted and sin in in various ways.
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OK, you have finally hit on a substantial justification - a near occasion for sin. And this can indeed be a good justification for the restriction, especially for young people in love. And for those people I would indeed agree that cohabitation is not to be permitted. But in case where age or physical condition or even personal temperament makes cohabitation not a temptation to have sex, for those people you have not given any justification (other than scandal) for such a restriction.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
That is not a reason. It is just a restatement of the restriction.

.
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It is a reason. No matter if it is a statement or not.

One could add…cause I am a Christian and Christians are not live in such a manner.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
That is only true if one already accepts the fact that cohabitation is only for married people. So your reasoning is circular. It is like saying “cohabitation is not allowed for unmarried people because it is only for married people.” Clearly circular.

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It is not circular. One starts from being a Christian.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
OK, you have finally hit on a substantial justification - a near occasion for sin. And this can indeed be a good justification for the restriction, especially for young people in love. And for those people I would indeed agree that cohabitation is not to be permitted. But in case where age or physical condition or even personal temperament makes cohabitation not a temptation to have sex, for those people you have not given any justification (other than scandal) for such a restriction.
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Again… having sex is not the only way one can be tempted or sin…no matter what age one is or if one can not have intercourse…

I leave the rest to the decision of the Church if some odd thing comes up.

Examples and made up senerios …do not fully take in all possible realities…I will give you that.
 
Bookcat said:
It is a reason. No matter if it is a statement or not.
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You said earlier:
One is not to engage in cohabitation of opposite sexes …such is for husband and wife…and family.
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In response to my request for a reason why cohabitation of opposite sexes is only for husband and wife. And you do not see why this is not a reason but a mere restatement? Come on. It is impossible for you to have gotten your degree in theology and not have learned the difference between a reason for something and a simple restatement of it. And as for
One could add…cause I am a Christian and Christians are not live in such a manner.
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I could say there are any number of Christians that do live in such a manner. And you will say that they are not really Christians. And then I will say “why not?”. And then you will be right back where you started, needing to give a reason why Christians are not supposed to live in that manner, ever. I have already agreed that there are lots of times when cohabitation is wrong. I have already agreed that scandal is one reason why all unmarried cohabitation should be suspect. But I have not seen any other reason other than those mentioned, which still leaves a lot of scenarios unaccounted for.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
You said earlier:

In response to my request for a reason why cohabitation of opposite sexes is only for husband and wife. And you do not see why this is not a reason but a mere restatement? Come on. It is impossible for you to have gotten your degree in theology and not have learned the difference between a reason for something and a simple restatement of it. And as for

I could say there are any number of Christians that do live in such a manner. And you will say that they are not really Christians. And then I will say “why not?”. And then you will be right back where you started, needing to give a reason why Christians are not supposed to live in that manner, ever. I have already agreed that there are lots of times when cohabitation is wrong. I have already agreed that scandal is one reason why all unmarried cohabitation should be suspect. But I have not seen any other reason other than those mentioned, which still leaves a lot of scenarios unaccounted for.
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But my point was that it was not “circular” for it starts with me being a Christian

Actually in speaking with a Christian of what ever kind…

It can be a very simple and profound answer to say “I am a Christian”…

Sure one can give other reasons…scandal…other sins…living together is for marriage etc…but that answer too can certainly be given.

Oh and sometimes one judges and answers via connaturality …one can not always articulate fully (at least at that particular moment) the why of something… as St. Thomas notes though “a chaste man judges chastely” via virtue that is connatural to them…such can be the case in various aspects of life.

But as I noted I leave the odd questions to the Church to decide on.

(of course leaving all things to the Church anyhow…)
 
Bookcat said:
It is a reason. No matter if it is a statement or not.

One could add…cause I am a Christian and Christians are not live in such a manner.
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Both the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church explicitly forbid sex outside of marriage. But cohabitation is not a guarantee that fornication is taking place. So to say that “Christians are not to live in such a manner,” without exception, implies that I should be able to find something to that effect in the Bible or in the CCC.

To my knowledge, there is nowhere in the Bible or the CCC where cohabitation (without fornication) is mutually exclusive with a Christian lifestyle unless one of these two things is true:
  1. Cohabitation would increase the temptation for sin (of any kind) versus non-cohabitative living arrangements.
  2. Cohabitation would cause scandal.
If you told me that one or both of those criteria were true for 99% of couples, making cohabitation sinful for those couples, I would not challenge your data. However, if a couple is not fornicating and prayerfully confident that their living arrangements do not satisfy either of those conditions, then I don’t see how we could condemn their actions. I’m talking about some serious confidence here, like the quadrapalegic who can’t have sex living with his caretaker. But without a solid understanding of how an individual is tempted and without knowing the effects that their cohabitation would have on their particular community, I don’t see how we can pass judgement on their actions.
 
Many years ago, when I was in my early twenties, I was looking for a place to live in London. I couldn’t afford to rent a place all by myself. It was a very common practice to rent bedrooms in houses. My friend who owned a house, offer me to rent one of the bedrooms in his house (he lived all by himself). I decide to go ahead and take the offer mostly because I rather be around someone that I knew than be with total estrangers. It was nothing scandalous about it. We shared the house not the bedroom. He lived his life and I lived mine. I pay my rent and that what’s that, nothing wrong with that. Very common practice in many places.
 
Fogwalker said:
Both the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church explicitly forbid sex outside of marriage. But cohabitation is not a guarantee that fornication is taking place. So to say that “Christians are not to live in such a manner,” without exception, implies that I should be able to find something to that effect in the Bible or in the CCC.

To my knowledge, there is nowhere in the Bible or the CCC where cohabitation (without fornication) is mutually exclusive with a Christian lifestyle unless one of these two things is true:
  1. Cohabitation would increase the temptation for sin (of any kind) versus non-cohabitative living arrangements.
  2. Cohabitation would cause scandal.
If you told me that one or both of those criteria were true for 99% of couples, making cohabitation sinful for those couples, I would not challenge your data. However, if a couple is not fornicating and prayerfully confident that their living arrangements do not satisfy either of those conditions, then I don’t see how we could condemn their actions. I’m talking about some serious confidence here, like the quadrapalegic who can’t have sex living with his caretaker. But without a solid understanding of how an individual is tempted and without knowing the effects that their cohabitation would have on their particular community, I don’t see how we can pass judgement on their actions.
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I gave my answer above.
 
Bookcat said:
I gave my answer above.
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I read your answer. I was hoping that you had some direct quotes from scripture or tradition (preferably the Catechism of the Catholic Church) to support your answer. As the person under the impression that direct quotes supporting your answer don’t exist, unfortunately I am relying on you to provide them. :o)

I found plenty of support against fornication, sexual temptation, and scandal. Certainly those three things are parts of many cohabitative relationships, but several posters on this thread have demonstrated that there can be situations where none of those three things are present in a cohabitative relationship. I found nothing in the Bible or the CCC defining cohabitation specifically as an exclusive right of married couples and families, and believe that your posts would carry more weight if they had support from scripture or the CCC.
 
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