What if Mary had not said "Yes"?

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Hesychios:
… I have adopted it as my own.
Thank you for the colorful analogy! 🙂 May I ask, what was the ‘decision tree’ point in your considerations? I became Christian because I realized that there was something necessary to Christianity, and a Catholic when I realized (shortly thereafter) that only the Catholics have a reasonable explanation of the Bible. For me it was logical and necessary to be Catholic: how could the things of God be false? I never considered being an Eastern Catholic; I just looked for the nearest Catholic church and made a bee-line.
If Mary’s “Yes” has saved us, the best we can do is say “Yippee!”, “Yahoo!” or the all time favorite “Alleluia!!”.
Yippee! Yahoo! Alleluia!!!

:amen:
The precise mechanism God employs to bring this about may not be well understood.
How problematic is it, in your view, that the Roman side believes in certain clear definitions. Does the Roman side admit to sufficient mystery to correspond to Eastern beliefs?

Blessings and peace.
 
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FrmrTrad:
Thank you for the colorful analogy! 🙂 May I ask, what was the ‘decision tree’ point in your considerations?
For me it was a long process, and not very orderly. I was raised a Roman Catholic, fell out and reverted later. My reversion was one of several deepening conversions, all of which seem to have been born out of crises.

I made it a practice of mine to read the Psalms daily and this progressed for some length of time. I live close to the Carmelite center in Darien IL where they have a nice shrine and a place to buy religious goods. I picked up a Christian Prayer from them and struggled with it for a while (like most people) until I met this kindly old priest, a neighbor who had been retired for a long time. He did the hours with me, and I attended Mass at his home occasionally. I pray for father Ed every night still.

I became a rather traditional-minded Catholic, I attended Latin Masses on occasion, both indult and SSPX. Sorry to say this did not satisfy my deepening yearnings, and the people I would meet there seemed to be mostly sour grapes, full of bitterness. I asked myself “is this what I have become? is this where I belong?”

I had started to study latin at home and bought some books in latin to practice with, but I was having trouble with it alone so I asked father Ed to help me, he refused saying his latin was no good anymore. I eventually set this ambition aside for other things, but I would still like to learn the language just for the satisfaction of it.

I began to dig up more and more material from the Fathers for my readings, and I was particularly interested in the earliest Fathers I could find, I now have an extensive collection of books that I could ill afford and no time to read!

I was also eventually concerned about some Marian excesses, and believe me I love Our Mother, but I found some individuals crossing the line in their veneration-to-adoration, sometimes I found it necessary to speak up, suddenly people thought of me as a liberal! I asked myself why this would happen and how best could these problems be prevented, it’s an issue I do not find addressed properly in traditionalist circles (at least to my experience).

Eventually these things made Orthodoxy attractive as an alternative, in spite of the fact that I was highly suspicious of them most of my life. After having duly considered it I was in a world of hurt. I struggled with the issues of authority in the church, the Petrine ministry and episcopal collegiality. There were clearly some problems with the way Vatican I was stage managed but no one will discuss it. I can see merit in arguments on both sides of the divide and the rigidity I seemed to find in some Catholics was a big dissapointment to me. I determined to become Orthodox, then hesitated, again I decided to become Orthodox, and again I hesitated!

Having long been aware of the Eastern Catholic churches and inspired by my studies I thought that I might perhaps involve myself in their spirituality and see where that would lead me.

I visited all of the eastern churches in my area, and I went a particularly long way to find Eastern Catholic churches because they are so few. I attended the Maronites, Melkites Ukrainians and Ruthenians. I went to many Orthodox churches and spoke to the priests there.

I eventually settled upon the parish I belong to now because their theology and praxis is authentic to their own tradition, the liturgy is astounding, (actually better than the Orthodox liturgies I have attended) and the parish is young and vibrant, thirsty for the faith and actively evangelizing. Not only that they are in Communion with Rome, I was impressed, it became my home.
How problematic is it, in your view, that the Roman side believes in certain clear definitions. Does the Roman side admit to sufficient mystery to correspond to Eastern beliefs?

Blessings and peace.
I respect the Roman church, but I don’t think it is absolutely necessary to know everything about the supernatural world. The Faith becomes a list of things we know and not necessarily a worldview. I think a simple Faith, a childlike faith, is more likely to carry us on to God. I want to know enough about God to love Him.

The mystery in worship, and in the books, is more attractive to me.

Eastern Theology is basically apophatic, Western Theology is basically cataphatic, but in each tradition the one is used as a check against the other.

I appreciate the Eastern approach, it makes theology a never-ending story, a continual adventure. The mystery goes on and the more you know the more you know you don’t know! We should recognize that we will never know every detail about the workings of God using our human faculties. The only way to know as much Truth as we are destined to know is to die.

God Bless,
Michael

+T+
 
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SPOKENWORD:
My take is that if she was created for that specific purpose she really would not have needed a free will. Now that is contrary to what God says for we were all created with a free will. I believe God knew that Mary was selected for this purpose for Mary knew Gods will in her life,and out of obidience and trust she said yes. Thats why Mary is such a beautiful example to us how we should trust God and know His will in our lives. God Bless.
While Mary did indeed have free will, God, in His providence, saw before she was ever created that she would say Yes. So it is an interplay of God’s providence (knowing Mary would say yes, but not forcing her) and Mary’s free will to say Yes.

To say “God would have chosen someone else if Mary had said No” is to diminish the role of providence in the story.
 
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seanie:
To say “God would have chosen someone else if Mary had said No” is to diminish the role of providence in the story.
Perhaps, but how do we know, one way or the other?

+T+
 
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FrmrTrad:
Does the Roman side admit to sufficient mystery to correspond to Eastern beliefs?
imho, from their perspective, yes.
however, the ‘sides’ don’t actually correspond to each other in our sight, rather they converge upon each other in God Hmself. trying to get one ‘side’ properly squared against the other can seem to point to a mistrust of Him Who decided there would two.
how many languages and cultures have east and west both crossed in spreading the Good News our our lord Jesus Christ? since both have done so, He must have seen a need for both; a need to tell His news differently, not just in a different tongue or in a different time. differently.
one can be blessed with great understanding in the mysteries and still, when considering a sacremental teaching, think, ‘nope, i dont get that at all.’ in the same way, the mysteries may be beyond someone steeped in the wisdom of the sacrements.
not looking for thelogical counterpoints within my own tradition will let me much better come to be blessed with whole new points in the new one. if i can get out of the way, it can be a way for God to give me life and give it abundently.
of course, i have my tradition for a reason and there is more than enough in it to keep me busy from now til the end of time. tilling the fields i’ve been planted in will let Him produce a great harvest within me.

thanks for listening, t
 
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