"What If My Daughter Insists She Is a Male?" How a Catholic Priest Answered This Mother's Question.

[buffalo]

I believe the Priest’s advice is not wholly sound on the scientific side.
“Don’t lose hope. Eventually the truth “will come out.” Your daughter was created female, and there is no changing that.”

Just as it seems that some homosexuals are born not made so too here.
The question is not biological sex type but “gender”.

Science is increasingly providing evidence that “gender” is objectively determined not simply by the visible genitals but also by the structure of the brain and hormones generated internally.

I believe we have to be open to this objective basis for children from a young age gender identifying themselves as possibly opposite to what their genitals “say”.
Nature is not perfect and there is no reason why, if gender is biologically more than external genitals, nature sometimes does not line up all the matching ducks in a row as it were.

This is not to say that ideology and “not fitting in” can also be responsible.
However, if someone from an early age identifies opposite to their biology and no obvious trauma is responsible then to hold up “nature” (ie external genitals) as being the sole criterion of what is true and how to respond is a flawed approach.

On a practical level a mother surely has the right to say what goes while a child is living at home and how she/he is to be addressed by the family.

If the child has left home and is in fact independent then her own wishes should surely be respected…especially if ignoring her wishes is likely to break down the relationship. One can of course still lovingly say how much it hurts to address her as a son when in fact you regard her as her baby girl…but in the end if opposition is not going to change the situation
then every true parent knows they must sacrifice themselves for their children’s good.
If they have left home it is in the end between them and God and ruining the relationship doesn’t help. One can still have a good relationship where both parties are honest and understand the pain the other is causing…and yet concede to the reasonable wishes of the grown up daughter. That is real love and if anything can change things then this sacrifice by the mother will.

And if it doesn’t, well that is then up to God.

I also note that Buffalo’s “scientific” view below is weak.
It comes from an organisation that appears to have a set bias, the Report is not peer reviewed, nor was it published in a “scientific journal" where it could be critiqued by world leading experts whose actual research suggests otherwise.

It is a compilation of over 100 studies.

“In the months that followed, I closely read over five hundred scientific articles on these topics and perused hundreds more. I was alarmed to learn that the LGBT community bears a disproportionate rate of mental health problems compared to the population as a whole. As my interest grew, I explored research across a variety of scientific fields, including epidemiology, genetics, endocrinology, psychiatry, neuroscience, embryology, and pediatrics. I also reviewed many of the academic empirical studies done in the social sciences including psychology, sociology, political science, economics, and gender studies.”

Next- about peer review and its failures - retractionwatch.org and

Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals

 

[Blue_Horizon]

It is a compilation of over 100 studies.

“In the months that followed, I closely read over five hundred scientific articles on these topics and perused hundreds more. I was alarmed to learn that the LGBT community bears a disproportionate rate of mental health problems compared to the population as a whole. As my interest grew, I explored research across a variety of scientific fields, including epidemiology, genetics, endocrinology, psychiatry, neuroscience, embryology, and pediatrics. I also reviewed many of the academic empirical studies done in the social sciences including psychology, sociology, political science, economics, and gender studies.”

Next- about peer review and its failures - retractionwatch.org and

Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals

Anybody can cherry pick their science Buffalo.
To assert that “peer review” is meaningless is itself unproven and so meaningless .

Your view that science proves your view is misplaced.
The question is still wide open.

Even the Vatican no longer supports the equivalent “science” still used by fundamentalist Christians to allegedly prove homosexual orientation is no more than an ideology.

 

[buffalo]

Anybody can cherry pick their science Buffalo.
To assert that “peer review” is meaningless is itself unproven and so meaningless .

Your view that science proves your view is misplaced.
The question is still wide open.

Even the Vatican no longer supports the equivalent “science” still used by fundamentalist Christians to allegedly prove homosexual orientation is no more than an ideology.

There is no gay gene.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

There is no gay gene.

Well given that there is still so much that genetic science does not know, has not explored or requires much larger test sample sizes to validate initial results…I see no basis for your certainty at all. The jury is clearly still out either way on this question.

The bias of fundamentalist Christians is palpably procrustean when it comes to assessing scientific literature on issues of non-normative sexuality issues for some reason.
I have no problem accepting that nature possibly gets these things wrong - as it does in many other areas of biology. How does that invalidate Church teaching?

 

[buffalo]

Well given that there is still so much that genetic science does not know, has not explored or requires much larger test sample sizes to validate initial results…I see no basis for your certainty at all. The jury is clearly still out either way on this question.

The bias of fundamentalist Christians is palpably procrustean when it comes to assessing scientific literature on issues of non-normative sexuality issues for some reason.
I have no problem accepting that nature possibly gets these things wrong - as it does in many other areas of biology. How does that invalidate Church teaching?

No, there is no evidence of a gay gene. Science is closing in on early childhood trauma.

 

[Lea101]

No, there is no evidence of a gay gene. Science is closing in on early childhood trauma.

As of now, it’s still a debate of nature vs nurture. It isn’t rocket science to know that not all gay people are gay because of trauma or that all of them are “born like that”. The main issue is that science is not that enthusiastic about studying more into sexuality.

 

[buffalo]

As of now, it’s still a debate of nature vs nurture. It isn’t rocket science to know that not all gay people are gay because of trauma or that all of them are “born like that”. The main issue is that science is not that enthusiastic about studying more into sexuality.

Suppose it was found. Should science research a drug to treat it?

 

[Sarcelle]

No, there is no evidence of a gay gene. Science is closing in on early childhood trauma.

Has anyone ever looked at the hormonal environment in the womb and how it affects the developing brain of the fetus?

I think there was a study on girls whose mothers took drugs which affected their brains. These girls most often identified as boys.

 

[buffalo]

Has anyone ever looked at the hormonal environment in the womb and how it affects the developing brain of the fetus?

I think there was a study on girls whose mothers took drugs which affected their brains. These girls most often identified as boys.

That would qualify as an environmental issue?

Remember that verse about the sins of the father running several generations? Epigenenetics may play a part in this, predisposing vulnerabilities on the child in the womb.

In any case, despite a predisposition, an act of will is necessary.

We also know that BPA (mostly now removed but still in the lining of beer and soup cans) pumped female hormones into boys feminizing them.

 

[buffalo]

As of now, it’s still a debate of nature vs nurture. It isn’t rocket science to know that not all gay people are gay because of trauma or that all of them are “born like that”. The main issue is that science is not that enthusiastic about studying more into sexuality.

You are right about science.

Was Never Done …

youtube.com/watch?v=BPgq1c4TYi4

“Unbiased, Open Research [on Homosexuality] Was Never Done,” Says Former A.P.A. President in …

"Political Correctness Rules, Not Science" - YouTube

youtube.com/watch?v=RuyCT9ygT-4

“Political Correctness Rules, Not Science,” Says American Psychological Association Past-President in …

Gay science is all fake, how gays control psychology - YouTube

youtube.com/watch?v=7NyX5CxGraE

THAT RESEARCH WAS NEVER DONE. … gay activist and their allies gained control of the APA and from …

 

[Lea101]

Suppose it was found. Should science research a drug to treat it?

Very unlikely that a cure would be found. Anorexia for instance is not cured by a drug, why would a sexuality? But playing along, why not…? (I’m more for a cure for gender dysphoria, if I had to choose.)

It would be very difficult to fund for it though. Not many people will support the idea. Plus some would not want it as a means of “population control”. Reaching a little but hey, that’s what the world has come to.

(With all respect and love) you do seem extremely preoccupied + biased when it comes to this issue. I don’t really understand the preoccupation on issues like this in general. Some of the links…are questionable.

 

[buffalo]

Very unlikely that a cure would be found. Anorexia for instance is not cured by a drug, why would a sexuality? But playing along, why not…? (I’m more for a cure for gender dysphoria, if I had to choose.)

It would be very difficult to fund for it though. Not many people will support the idea. Plus some would not want it as a means of “population control”. Reaching a little but hey, that’s what the world has come to.

(With all respect and love) you do seem extremely preoccupied + biased when it comes to this issue. I don’t really understand the preoccupation on issues like this in general. Some of the links…are questionable.

Questionable because it doesn’t fit the narrative?

Biased? If I come across as biased it is because through much research I am convinced. I could claim you seem biased the other way.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

No, there is no evidence of a gay gene. Science is closing in on early childhood trauma.

Just as there is no coercive evidence that rules out a genetic base (BTW nobody said there has to be a single gene, it may be due to multiple markers across a variety of genes).

But of course if certain Christians have a vested interest in ruling out an objective cause for all cases of gender disorder they will often prematurely see evidence in the tea leaves to suit.

Why is the absence of a scientific basis, if it were true, so important to you?

 

[buffalo]

Just as there is no coercive evidence that rules out a genetic base (BTW nobody said there has to be a single gene, it may be due to multiple markers across a variety of genes).

But of course if certain Christians have a vested interest in ruling out an objective cause for all cases of gender disorder they will often prematurely see evidence in the tea leaves to suit.

Why is the absence of a scientific basis, if it were true, so important to you?

Why is this issue important? Many, starting with a really important one. Man participates in God’s creation. These issues attack and defy God’s plan and man’s privilege.

Another, the communist goals to takedown America. From the Naked Communist:

Goal 26: Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.” (since it violates natural law can never be “normal, natural and healthy”)

Even though this largely has been a political agenda the science is exposing it as a fraud.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Why is this issue important? Many, starting with a really important one. Man participates in God’s creation. These issues attack and defy God’s plan and man’s privilege.

Another, the communist goals to takedown America. From the Naked Communist:

Goal 26: Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.” (since it violates natural law can never be “normal, natural and healthy”)

Even though this largely has been a political agenda the science is exposing it as a fraud.

The science is still out on this question, as is the case with the homosexual condition.
That is the Church’s official stance , as it likely is with the etiology of gender
disphoria.

Why does possessing a homosexual orientation mean someone must be defying God?
Why does admitting concupiscence re the teenage girl sunbathing next door by a married man mean a moral defiance of God? Tendencies are just tendencies…it is what we freely do with them that might constitute immoral defiance of God’s plan.

Of course we shouldn’t even have such tendencies, but nature is fallen and so the defiance is often to be located at the level of nature to begin with. While such defiance is an evil, at this stage it is but a physical evil, not a moral evil.

Fundamentalist Christians are always blurring that line and falsely locating moral evil in objects rather than intentions pertaining to objects.

 

[buffalo]

The science is still out on this question, as is the case with the homosexual condition.
That is the Church’s official stance , as it likely is with the etiology of gender
disphoria.

Why does possessing a homosexual orientation mean someone must be defying God?
Why does admitting concupiscence re the teenage girl sunbathing next door by a married man mean a moral defiance of God? Tendencies are just tendencies…it is what we freely do with them that might constitute immoral defiance of God’s plan.

Of course we shouldn’t even have such tendencies, but nature is fallen and so the defiance is often to be located at the level of nature to begin with. While such defiance is an evil, at this stage it is but a physical evil, not a moral evil.

Fundamentalist Christians are always blurring that line and falsely locating moral evil in objects rather than intentions pertaining to objects.

We can be pretty confident that the condition is not genetic. We can be confident that it is not innate.

I am concerned with actions, not conditions. SSA is a condition. Acting on it is a sin. Promoting the action is a sin.

Yes, we live in a fallen world. God calls us to self mastery and control of our base tendencies. The devil deals in confusion and blurred lines. He is the master of relativism.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

We can be pretty confident that the condition is not genetic. We can be confident that it is not innate.

As I and others are pulling you up on that wild assertion I think you might be wise to replace the “we” with just yourself. Ideology is alive and well on both sides of the issue and simply daily repeating to oneself “God is on my side” (or Allah Akbha for that matter) doesn’t mean one does not suffer from the same conditioning or blindness each side accuses the other of in their hearts.

And as I say the Church contradicts your alleged science backed views which you likely hold similarly for homosexual orientation…or do I have you wrong on this point?

May I repeat my question.
Why is it so important to you that there should not or could not be a scientific explanation behind gender disphoria, thereby making it an illness rather than a lifestyle choice for some sufferers?

 

[buffalo]

As I and others are pulling you up on that wild assertion I think you might be wise to replace the “we” with just yourself. Ideology is alive and well on both sides of the issue and simply daily repeating to oneself “God is on my side” (or Allah Akbha for that matter) doesn’t mean one does not suffer from the same conditioning or blindness each side accuses the other of in their hearts.

And as I say the Church contradicts your alleged science backed views which you likely hold similarly for homosexual orientation…or do I have you wrong on this point?

May I repeat my question.
Why is it so important to you that there should not or could not be a scientific explanation behind gender disphoria, thereby making it an illness rather than a lifestyle choice for some sufferers?

I will stick with we.

Here is Catholic teaching right from the Catechism:
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

God is on my side? God created them, male and female. He said it, not I.

The church contradicts? how so…?

Condition vs acting on it. It is that simple.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I will stick with we.

You can do whatever you want but if you wish to influence people here on this thread we all have to come up with more than our own subjective views and prejudices and produce something relatively objective.

To date you have not done so re your startling assertions that homosexual and alternate gender dispositions are proven by science not to ever be due to errors of mother nature.

Nor have you answered my reasonable questions which would also seem to be a good way to go to increase your credibility vis a vis undecided lurkers here:

May I repeat my question.
Why is it so important to you that there should not or could not be a scientific explanation behind gender disphoria, thereby making it an illness rather than a lifestyle choice for some sufferers?

the Church contradicts your alleged science backed views which you likely hold similarly for homosexual orientation…or do I have you wrong on this point?

I don’t quite see why you felt the need to quote the Catechism…apart from it making my point that even the Church accepts the jury is still out on the causes of this psychological issue - which I am sure was not your intent .

Viz:

CCC:
“Homosexuality has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.”

Buffalo:
God is on my side? God created them, male and female. He said it, not I.

Are you for real? “God is on my side” is understood by most to refer to the catch cry of fanatics who believe that they are right simply because they think they are spiritual and religious and their “opponents” are allegedly godless and pagan.

A fundamentalist attitude to be found amongst all religions including most recently Muslims and less recently Christians (the Crusaders) and I observe to some extent in your posts here - unrecognised though it seems to be. This is as much an ideology as that you denounce amongst the gay lobby.
And no I have nothing to do with the gay lobby.
I am just an ordinary, educated, non fundamentalist Christian from a science/engineering background.

 

[Rau]

Buffalo - Why is it so important to you that there should not or could not be a scientific explanation behind gender disphoria, whereby the basis is something in the persons biological makeup (perhaps something gone awry in utero) as opposed to a lifestyle choice for some sufferers?

And the same question can be asked in respect of same sex attraction.