What if Roe vs Wade is overturned?

[Philip_P]

thestickman:

Nope. Because it has zip to do with the cause or reason there’s ever been a demand for abortion.

Nope. Because none of your proposals has zip with the demand for abortion which is now and always a moral issue–of personal responsibility, not a public funding issue. No one get’s pregnant because they didn’t have public transportation, bad insurance or went to head-start or not.

Oh, and I meant to add health insurance, too.

As far as your denial of any social responsibility for abortion, that’s the biggest blind spot for conservatives, in my opinion. Abortion is not simply one woman making a decision, it is also our failure as a society. It demands both a personal and a social response.

Also, it seems that your problem isn’t with abortion, it’s with pregnancy.

Our Catholic schools are teaching these things and the world hasn’t come to an end, has it? I remember growing up in a time when out-of-wedlock pregnancy was something to be ashamed of…with good reason. Now it’s just accepted and no one acts like anything wrong or immoral has taken place.

I had thought it was understood that I was talking about the U.S. as a whole not Catholic schools specifically. Apparently not. Well then, here I’m making it explicit - I’m talking about public schools and programs, not private schools and institutions.

The contraception argument is invalid if abstainence till marriage is taught AND is praised as a way to end the destruction of the family system and such. Sheesh, just looking at the near destruction of the black american family in the inner city is evidence enough to throw that argument in the trash–where it belongs!

You think the government should dictate people’s sex life? That’s hardly a supportable position. Catholic views on contraception and abstinence cannot be imposed upon non-Catholics. Abortion is not a “faith” issue because it people are actually dying. If the fetus was not human, then the pro-choice folks would have it right. It’s the humanity of the fetus that’s at issue, not an attempt to impose a national moral code.

 

[buffalo]

Philip,

Do you believe in absolute truth?

 

[thestickman]

Philip P:

Abortion is not simply one woman making a decision, it is also our failure as a society. It demands both a personal and a social response.

If the society teaches the woman it’s wrong/harmful for her, her neighbors, extended family and any children she might give birth too in the future if she’s gets pregnant before she’s married then society has done it’s job and the responsibility lies on the woman’s shoulders.

Also, it seems that your problem isn’t with abortion, it’s with pregnancy.

LOL!!! If ya ain’t pregnant, then you don’t need to get an abortion, do you?

I had thought it was understood that I was talking about the U.S. as a whole not Catholic schools specifically. Apparently not.

As someone who’s converting and has seen his children already convert, my understanding is it’s the personal responsibility of each and every Catholic on the planet to spread the Gospel to everyone. IMO, ending abortion and teaching sex only within marriage is an extension of such.

Well then, here I’m making it explicit - I’m talking about public schools and programs, not private schools and institutions.

Which makes no difference. Sex only within the confines of marriage, whether its taught in public schools or in parochial schools impresses the morally appropriate reality that at the very least reduces the so-called demand for abortion by 80%.

You think the government should dictate people’s sex life?

Teaching ain’t dictating. Rewarding appropriate behavior instead of illicit behavior ain’t dictating either.

That’s hardly a supportable position.

Good thing I didn’t suggest it then, eh?

Catholic views on contraception and abstinence cannot be imposed upon non-Catholics.

LOL!!! I guess that Catholic/natural law thing regarding murder and rape and a few other wrongs that’s imposed already on our society should just be done away with also?

Abortion is not a “faith” issue because it people are actually dying.

Huh?

If the fetus was not human, then the pro-choice folks would have it right. It’s the humanity of the fetus that’s at issue, not an attempt to impose a national moral code.

If you don’t think the nation already imposes a moral code upon it’s citizens then there’s no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Phillip;

I think you make some valid arguments for addressing the “demand” side of the abortion issue. In my younger (and more liberal) years I thought that the ideal situation would be one in which abortion was safe and legal but never actually used because “crisis” pregnancies would be a thing of the past. A utopian dream perhaps?

I still think that addressing the cultural environment that leads to a woman’s choice to abort is an appropriate and christian response to the problem. However, I also believe that is necessary to teach that there are moral absolutes. Abstinence outside of marriage is the ONLY moral choice. This must be stressed. America has lost its sense of shame, and for better or for worse, we need to regain it. I think this is Stickman’s issue. Addressing the “demand” side of the abortion issue cannot include the absolution of the individual from all responsibility. Yes, society adds to the problem of abortion, but each individual that assists in an abortion must bear the moral blame for that act, just as each person who contributes to a “crisis” pregnancy must bear the moral blame for placing a child at risk.

Peace

 

[Philip_P]

thestickman:

LOL!!! I guess that Catholic/natural law thing regarding murder and rape and a few other wrongs that’s imposed already on our society should just be done away with also?

Murder and rape are not specifically Catholic issues. Contraception is. Theology of marriage is. It would be wrong to demand the state to adhere to the moral code of a specific subset of its citizens, even if that subset happens to be Catholicism.

Abortion, on the other hand, is not a specifically Catholic issue beause it deals with human life. I’ve never bought into the idea that abortion is a religious issue, hence you won’t see me claiming separation of Church and State in regards to abortion. At the same time, we need to acknowledge that we as a society have not reached any moral consensus on abortion, they way we have on rape and murder. That’s why I’m skeptical of attempts to criminalize it. A law without democratic legitimacy is a failed law.

 

[Philip_P]

Robert in SD:

However, I also believe that is necessary to teach that there are moral absolutes. Abstinence outside of marriage is the ONLY moral choice. This must be stressed.

But how do you do that in the context of democratic, pluralistic society? I think it’s entirely appropriate for Catholic schools to teach this. How do you do this in, say, a public school? Abstinence should definitely be a part of any responsible sex-ed program, but abstinence only is hard to defend.

 

[thestickman]

Philip P:

Murder and rape are not specifically Catholic issues. Contraception is. Theology of marriage is.

That statement is only valid if you don’t believe in natural law. Then you have the reality of contraception (a term meaning the opposite of conception which = denial of life and so on) and the reality that birth control pills and other forms of contraception are abortifacients (sp?) which does = murder.

It would be wrong to demand the state to adhere to the moral code of a specific subset of its citizens, even if that subset happens to be Catholicism.

You seem unable to make any distinction between teaching the factual reality that sex only with marriage is better for society and a governmental mandate. One doesn’t equal the other, does it?

Abortion, on the other hand, is not a specifically Catholic issue beause it deals with human life.

I’ve never bought into the idea that abortion is a religious issue, hence you won’t see me claiming separation of Church and State in regards to abortion. At the same time, we need to acknowledge that we as a society have not reached any moral consensus on abortion, they way we have on rape and murder. That’s why I’m skeptical of attempts to criminalize it. A law without democratic legitimacy is a failed law.

LOL!!! Yeah, like the criminalization of pot. Forced seatbelt laws, no smoking in public places and so on…too funny.

 

[thestickman]

Philip P:

But how do you do that in the context of democratic, pluralistic society?

Easily, instead of the public schools teaching diversity appreciation and other pc-trash how about they teach real moral absolutes and social responsbilities like voting and the moral realites of personal responsibility? Works for me.

I think it’s entirely appropriate for Catholic schools to teach this. How do you do this in, say, a public school?

The same way you teach photosythesis. The same way you teach 2+2=4. Same way doctors are taught how to treat an infection. With reality. Nothing more, nothing less.

Abstinence should definitely be a part of any responsible sex-ed program, but abstinence only is hard to defend.

LOL!!! T’aint hard at all when you look at the statistical reality, Phillip. Not at all!

 

[Philip_P]

thestickman:

LOL!!! Yeah, like the criminalization of pot. Forced seatbelt laws, no smoking in public places and so on…too funny.

These aren’t Catholic issue either. Yes, there’s a moral component to them, no, it’s not a specifically Catholic moral component. An argument for seatbelt laws that relied on Catholic moral teaching would be bizarre, to say the least.