What if someone were forced to sin?

[Roguish]

But what if they were told “Renounce the faith, or every one of your family members will be killed or put into prison”? […] What if the person were told they had to […] commit some kind of mortal sin everyday for the rest of their life or for as long as the persecution would last? What if they were told that as long as they refuse to comply, innocent people will be executed daily?

@OnWings

An important question, this.

Personally I’ve arrived at the uncomfortable answer that unwavering commitment to one’s own faith – and to all the understanding that has flows from one’s faith – ultimately takes precedence over humane considerations. In the end, it cannot be any other way. If the answer was that ultimately humane considerations were to take precedence – in other words that one should give in to Evil under certain circumstances – that would give Evil a straightforward means of coercing us. It would predictably become a matter of routine for Evil to use this tactic to get “difficult cases” to comply. So no, we will not comply – not even when our loved ones are held hostage – because such compliance would invite tyranny on all of us, including the very loved ones we would like to save.

The thing that makes this answer so very hard to swallow, is that we will feel guilty if indeed our loved ones are imprisoned, hurt, or killed because we refused to comply. This is one of Evil’s great tricks: to induce a sense of guilt about acts that are not sinful, possibly even virtuous in the Eyes of God. Evil preys on the tenderness of our hearts; it abuses this tenderness to confuse us, even to the point of making us feel guilty about being virtuous. And it gets worse: because our loved ones themselves may blame us for being so “stubborn”. Who can bear seeing a loved one tortured, and of knowing that that loved one believes their suffering to be our fault for not complying with certain demands? This is terrible affliction.

A metaphore. You and many other passengers are on a ship, at sea, and there’s no land in sight. Also aboard are the henchmen of Evil, who insist that you must drill a hole in the bottom of the vessel; that it is your duty as a good passenger to do this. Other passengers have been told the same, and many have obediently started drilling, apparently unaware that they are inviting a disaster. As a believer you refuse, on the grounds that doing so would lead to water flooding the ship, the ship sinking, and all of you perishing in the deep, dark, cold waters. The evil minions then take some of your loved ones hostage, and threaten to hurt and perhaps kill them if you don’t start drilling a hole as they’ve instructed you…

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[Roguish]

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Will you drill it? It’s tempting to, because you might reason that other passengers are already drilling anyway, and that therefore your refusal to drill will not prevent the ship from sinking. And, so you reason, your compliance will prevent your loved ones from being hurt – at least in the short run. But what this argument doesn’t take into account is this: whether you will sink or float once the ship goes down depends on the buoyancy of your soul. And that buoyancy is enhanced with every faithful choice you make, and reduced with every compromise. In the end, it’s not about saving the ship – the ship will go down anyway, because there are too many compromisers on board who, out of fear or ignorance, are already drilling holes in the bottom. In the end it’s about making those choices that give you the best chance of surviving the ship’s inevitable demise. As for your loved ones, if you compromise with the aim of giving them a few more comfortable days on the ship – what will it matter in the end? For them too, their only chance is to invest in the buoyancy of their souls. If they don’t, then indeed they may perish, and they may do so believing it was your fault. It is a tough cookie to swallow, this, but swallow it we must.

 

[TheLittleLady]

This means that my family is my God. Our duty is to love God above all.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Given that martyrdom is the seed of Christianity, better to face bodily death rather than spiritual death.

 

[njlisa]

The Christian should show heroic virtue, accepting torture and death rather than inflict harm on others.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Remember this: the family thus murdered will immediately receive a crown of martyrdom for being killed in odium fidei .

Even if they are in mortal sin when they are killed?

Are they necessarily willing and conscious martyrs for the Faith, or might some of them be mere hostages, “we will kill your unbelieving and reprobate loved one, and he will go to hell, unless you do as we say and repudiate your Christ”?

 

[Anesti33]

That’s for the Church to determine.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Anesti33:

Remember this: the family thus murdered will immediately receive a crown of martyrdom for being killed in odium fidei .

Even if they are in mortal sin when they are killed?

Are they necessarily willing and conscious martyrs for the Faith, or might some of them be mere hostages, “we will kill your unbelieving and reprobate loved one, and he will go to hell, unless you do as we say and repudiate your Christ”?

That’s for the Church to determine.

I would be very interested to see if the magisterium of the Church, or even theological writers and commentators, have ever had anything to say on the question of “can one become a martyr unwillingly, securing their salvation, never mind the state of their soul, if they are killed due to the willingness of a believer to deliver them over to martyrdom rather than repudiate the Faith himself?”.

In other words, “can you become a ‘third-party martyr’ even if you don’t want to?”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Even if they are in mortal sin when they are killed?

Are they necessarily willing and conscious martyrs for the Faith, or might some of them be mere hostages, “we will kill your unbelieving and reprobate loved one, and he will go to hell, unless you do as we say and repudiate your Christ”?

You’re making several errors here:
first, assuming someone will go to hell rather than praying and entrusting them to Merciful God;
second, assuming that a martyr is incapable of interceding with God on behalf of their loved one.

 

[Zaccheus]

Yeah, I’m a bit confused. So, it isn’t a sin if you allow your family to be killed but it is a sin to renounce your faith in exchange for their lives, even if they are still killed in the end?

If they can make you renounce your faith by threatening to kill your family then they can make you commit all kinds of evil by threatening to kill your family.
Your family will never be safe because they will keep on holding that threat over your head.
Finally they’ll demand something so evil you can’t do it even to save those you love: then your loved ones die in the end anyway.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Even if they are in mortal sin when they are killed?

Are they necessarily willing and conscious martyrs for the Faith, or might some of them be mere hostages, “we will kill your unbelieving and reprobate loved one, and he will go to hell, unless you do as we say and repudiate your Christ”?

You’re making several errors here:
first, assuming someone will go to hell rather than praying and entrusting them to Merciful God;
second, assuming that a martyr is incapable of interceding with God on behalf of their loved one.

Both of these things you say are true, however, it doesn’t logically follow that “if my loved one, who is alienated from God and has lost the state of grace, dies because I will not repudiate the Faith to save his life, he will automatically become a martyr, and go to heaven, because my steadfastness forced him to die for my faith — not his”. That is the point I was trying to bring out.

Does the Catechism address the issue of “third-party martyrdom”?

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I think we need to recognize that there’s not a clear-cut neat answer for every hypothetical and we have to trust in the mercy and justice of God, particularly if we don’t do the ideal thing in an extreme situation.

 

[Stephen_says]

“But beware of men. For they will deliver you up in councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues.

And you shall be brought before governors, and before kings for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles:

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.“

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Of course it doesn’t because the family members’ state of mind is likely all over the map, no blanket statement can be made and God will make an individual decision in each case.

However, if one believes that sin is harmful not only to the sinner but to others, including to innocent people and to the world at large, and further if one accepts the longstanding Church teaching that martyrdom serves to increase faith, then your loved ones, even if sinful, will not be helped by you adding to the sin pile by renouncing God, and accepting martyrdom is the better choice for you to make.

Having said that, since people are under duress making these decisions, and since martyrdom is evidence of heroic virtue - not just normal old virtue, but HEROIC - it’s reasonable to think that God has mercy on those who decide to avoid martyrdom, especially if the decision is made for the presumed good of others such as family members.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

However, if one believes that sin is harmful not only to the sinner but to others, including to innocent people and to the world at large, and further if one accepts the longstanding Church teaching that martyrdom serves to increase faith, then your loved ones, even if sinful, will not be helped by you adding to the sin pile by renouncing God, and accepting martyrdom is the better choice for you to make.

Thanks for clarifying. We don’t disagree in the least.

Just to clarify myself, I was not maintaining that it might be better to avoid martyrdom for oneself, to save the lives of loved ones who might not be in the state of grace. Martyrdom is indeed a fountain of great graces, both for oneself and for the Body of Christ in general. I have to think that the persecutor of a martyr, seeing that the martyr is actually willing to die rather than renounce the Faith, might say to himself “wow… this Christian really was willing to die rather than to renounce Christ… he wasn’t just talking, he really meant it… maybe he was right after all… maybe I’d better consider the claims of Christ myself”.

Actually, and I know you know this, small “martyrdoms” crop up time and again in the lives of faithful Catholics — that lie you can’t tell to gain some temporal advantage, being forced to remain single and celibate because you can’t get an annulment, people who make fun of you for being a “holy roller”, the sorrow you feel when your loved ones won’t listen to the message of Christ, the list goes on. If you live the Faith, mini-martyrdom will eventually track you down and find you.