What if the Church did this in response to the same-sex "marriage" debate?

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I’m not an expert on marriage rites. But if two baptized Protestants got married in a Methodist Church, for example, and the elements of a marital commitment were exchanged, involving commitment to each other for life, that marriage would be sacramental.
Right, that’s what I thought too, because these two protestants are free to marry in Church and have married in Church before a Priest - so it’s sacramental.
If a Catholic married a Protestant without obtaining consent of the Church, the marriage would not be valid, because the Catholic is bound to follow the marital law of the Church. Not so with two protestants.
Not valid in this case = not sacramental?
The Church considers the proper ministers of marriage to be the bride and groom: **they confer the sacrament on one another with their marital vows. **The priest acts as the official witness of the Church.
So if a heterosexual couple - free in every sense to marry - get married at City Hall, the Catholic Church would refer to that marriage as a sacramental marriage?

Ok, well if that’s true, I’m surprised but I’ve learned something.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Right, that’s what I thought too, because these two protestants are free to marry in Church and have married in Church before a Priest - so it’s sacramental.

Not valid in this case = not sacramental?

So if a heterosexual couple - free in every sense to marry - get married at City Hall, the Catholic Church would refer to that marriage as a sacramental marriage?

Ok, well if that’s true, I’m surprised but I’ve learned something.

Sarah x 🙂
To take the last question first, a marriage becomes sacramental if it is a valid marriage between two baptized Christians. A natural marriage is a valid marriage between a man and a woman, at least one of whom is unbaptized. It is presumed valid but is not sacramental

“Not valid” means there is no marriage, and there must be a marriage in order for there to be a sacrament.

A Catholic has the further obligation of complying with the marriage laws of the Church in order for a marriage to be valid. I knew a priest who used to speak of Catholics who “attempted” marriage by a justice of the peace. The inference was that in defying the marriage laws of the Church, such a marriage would be invalid.
 
I… I don’t think it is… :confused:

It’s hard to respond to claims like this, namely because they’re baseless conspiracy theories which are not only absurd, but also show extreme examples of generalisation. I think to claim that is the motivation behind homosexual unions is, well, just silly.

I have heard homosexuals claim that they feel they are entitled to the same unions as heterosexuals on the grounds that they are some kind of basic human rights and that (basically) they feel left out without the ability to get married, but never anything to suggest that they want to undermine traditional marriage. For the record, I don’t agree with the homosexuals that claim not being entitled to same-sex marriage is a breach of human rights.

Also, a few examples of homosexuals suing doesn’t really mean anything. I can give examples of Baptists wanting homosexuals to be put to death, but that doesn’t mean that Baptists as a whole want homosexuals to receive the death penalty.
By trying to brainwash people into believing that SSM is equivalent to heterosexual marriage is undermining traditional marriage.
 
By trying to brainwash people into believing that SSM is equivalent to heterosexual marriage is undermining traditional marriage.
My marriage to my husband is not even remotely undermined or affected in any way by the fact Martha in the office is married to Mary.

Their relationship and marriage has no effect, influence or bearing on my marriage whatsoever.

None.

Sarah x 🙂
 
My marriage to my husband is not even remotely undermined or affected in any way by the fact Martha in the office is married to Mary.

Their relationship and marriage has no effect, influence or bearing on my marriage whatsoever.

None.

Sarah x 🙂
Until you become a second class citizen just because you are a breeder. Until your kids are in the locker room with a 30 year old man who insists he is a woman and lounges in his birthday suit in front of your children with the full backing of Washington state law. Until the very notion of man and women is skewed to the point that even this fundamental truth about the human condition is completely obscured. Yes it does effect you. You may not see it yet, but that is because you are not looking that hard. IMHO
 
Until you become a second class citizen just because you are a breeder.
‘‘Breeder’’.

Interesting term to use.

I know all about not just being a second class citizen, but not being a citizen at all.
Until your kids are in the locker room with a 30 year old man who insists he is a woman
and lounges in his birthday suit in front of your children with the full backing of Washington state law.
Nothing to do with same sex marriage, but the histrionics are typical of the grotesque exaggerations brought into any such debate.

I know of numerous incidents of inappropriate or suspicious behavior surrounding children and adults. All of which involved married, heterosexual men.
Until the very notion of man and women is skewed to the point that even this fundamental truth about the human condition is completely obscured.
See above.
Yes it does effect you.
No.

It doesn’t.

Not in the slightest.

Sarah x 🙂
 
‘‘Breeder’’.

Interesting term to use.

I know all about not just being a second class citizen, but not being a citizen at all.

Nothing to do with same sex marriage, but the histrionics are typical of the grotesque exaggerations brought into any such debate.

I know of numerous incidents of inappropriate or suspicious behavior surrounding children and adults. All of which involved married, heterosexual men.

See above.

No.

It doesn’t.

Not in the slightest.

Sarah x 🙂
it is not an exaggeration it came straight from the logic that says men are not complimentary to women. The logical conclusion of this being a man is not necessarily a man just because he has the appropriate anatomical equipment. which leads directly to what we see in the Washington state example.

im sure you have seen stories of heterosexual people doing strange things but the state does not back them up as legal. So yes it does effect you and no you are not being logically consistent or logically honest with yourself or us. You are just holding to your line. But following the logic of same sex marriage leads directly to a loss of a fundamental understanding of what the sexes are. if same sex marriage is made legal then there is nothing legally or logically stopping 3 men and 3 women in one union. or 3 men and a dog. Or 3 men and a 14 year old boy once you loose site of the fundamentals of what marriage is then the gloves are off, and it can mean any union. This will be a stepping stone to more perverse things and has been heralded as such by groups you would not claim affiliation with.
 
Down under,

See you aware that " slippery slope" arguments are a logical fallacy, and therefore not acceptable in logical debate?

Let’s discuss the matter at hand, not what you personally feel it will lead to in the future. If something is wrong, you should be able to prove it wrong on its own terms, not based on what it may or may not lead to.

Just because something may lead to something bad does not make that thing bad. For instance, the idea that people should be able to make medical decisions about their own bodies is a good thing, but it led to abortion which is a bad thing. Using your logic, people should not be allowed to make medical decisions for their own bodies, because that was the slippery slope that led to abortion.

So let’s discuss whether or not same sex marriage, or civil unions, should be legal or not, and leave other discussions for another thread. In my opinion, if you are forced to rely on the slippery slope argument, out is simply because you don’t have a very good argument against same sex marriage on its own.

People keep saying marriages and civil unions performed by a justice of the peace are sacraments, which in my opinion is a huge insult to actual sacraments. They are, in reality, nothing more than legal documents. Since they have no bearing on any moral aspect of our lives, the church’s stance on then is not infallible, and we are OK to disagree with it.
 
Down under,

See you aware that " slippery slope" arguments are a logical fallacy, and therefore not acceptable in logical debate?
The slippery slope fallacy merely demonstrates that there is no logical trajectory to be made from adopting one course of action to the logical necessity of another action being entailed.
However, logical implications have really nothing to do with how norms become adopted within a society precisely because change in social behaviour is not logically grounded.

Back in the seventies when the abortion debate was in its infancy a great deal was made about how accepting abortion only when medically necessary would not lead to abortion on demand, but here we are thirty some years later and abortiion on demand is the norm with the next downhill stride being allowing abortion based upon gender determination. You cannot honestly look back on the changes in attitude to abortion in modern western culture and not conclude that the term “slippery slope” does indeed aptly describe what has occurred socially and politically.

Certainly, slippery slope is a logical fallacy, but in the debate on same sex marriage, abortion or other moral issues we are not describing logically determined conclusions, what we are describing is human behaviour. Slippery slope could very well be an appropriate descriptive tool when applied to human moral behaviour, even if it is logically untenable.

In other words, your objection to the post by down under by appealing to logical fallacy does not really address his concern nor does it demonstrate an appropriate application of logic.
 
Just because something may lead to something bad does not make that thing bad. For instance, the idea that people should be able to make medical decisions about their own bodies is a good thing, but it led to abortion which is a bad thing. Using your logic, people should not be allowed to make medical decisions for their own bodies, because that was the slippery slope that led to abortion.
Making licit decisions is not morally equal to making illicit decisions. The standard is not ability to make decisions.
 
Down under,

See you aware that " slippery slope" arguments are a logical fallacy, and therefore not acceptable in logical debate?

Let’s discuss the matter at hand, not what you personally feel it will lead to in the future. If something is wrong, you should be able to prove it wrong on its own terms, not based on what it may or may not lead to.

Just because something may lead to something bad does not make that thing bad. For instance, the idea that people should be able to make medical decisions about their own bodies is a good thing, but it led to abortion which is a bad thing. Using your logic, people should not be allowed to make medical decisions for their own bodies, because that was the slippery slope that led to abortion.

So let’s discuss whether or not same sex marriage, or civil unions, should be legal or not, and leave other discussions for another thread. In my opinion, if you are forced to rely on the slippery slope argument, out is simply because you don’t have a very good argument against same sex marriage on its own.

People keep saying marriages and civil unions performed by a justice of the peace are sacraments, which in my opinion is a huge insult to actual sacraments. They are, in reality, nothing more than legal documents. Since they have no bearing on any moral aspect of our lives, the church’s stance on then is not infallible, and we are OK to disagree with it.
your first assertion is wrong dead wrong. the slippery slope is a valid argument. that simple but lets continue for fun anyway.

your second point 'women should be allowed to make medical decisions for their own bodies led to abortion" is also dead wrong. the ability to avoid the consequences (some of the time) of sex aka a child, led directly to the logic that if that’s okay then the killing of the formed child must be okay as long as you do it early enough. which of course leads to the logical conclusion that you can kill many people who are simply inconvenient (mentally disabled, “brain dead”, old, infirm, ect.) both of these things are wrong in and of themselves as they devalue human life (allowing the women to be used like a tool and discarded when finished).

now lets apply this new knowledge to the subject at hand shall we. Marriage is a protected class of citizens with rights and privileges in secular society specifically because in its nature is the ability to bring about the future of that society. (children) does this always work out no. but in the very nature of the union this simple fact is present. Gay marriage is all about the satisfaction of the 2 men (or women) who are involved in that union offering no innate benefits to society. So why should society in general protect this class of citizens with a special status.

3 tell me genius where are the children going to come from. Of course you have not thought this through. 2 women just have a night on the town with 2 separate guys and boom there is kids (this does happen it was published during the divorce hearing), I am talking about the children of the men. Now kids are a stereo, there for your personal gratification I suppose having no value in and of themselves or rights apparently, because currently they are coming from India. where poor women sign literally there life away to have the child of one of these men. she is treated like cattle the child is the only medically cared for person. when these women die (which many have) there family is given 5 grand and sent packing with no recourse. All so 2 men can raise someone else’s kid that happens to have one of there genes. All the while taking the mother from the baby. As if that is not important. The child has not say, no rights That is not slippery that is a direct consequence.

if men want carnal knowledge of men and women of women we can’t really stop them. But lets be frank society gets nothing out of it but chaos. more families will be broken. And well frankly if you think the divorce problem in big among normal marriages (which it is as predicted well in advance in Humane vitiate thanks to contraception) then the utter promiscuity and disintegration of male homosexual unions is completely off the charts.

Last point the disease rate among particularly male Gay men is so high they are simply not allowed to donate blood. that is not a fallacy. That is not a point of discrimination. That is a statistical fact directly associated with anal sex. Because of this risky behaviour the Hiv rate according to the CDC for new cases in 2010 was ~29000 for active Gay men. the same stat for active Straight men was ~4500, it was higher for straight women ~8500. The gay male stat was still orders of magnitude higher. This is a real problem for society not a benefit.

Stats are all directly from the US CDC look them up. But stop pretending like I have to prove what could possible be wrong with Gay marriage.

YOU must prove there is a benefit or that you are organically similar to the protected class of persons. Gay marriage is not similar or equal to straight marriage. They are simply different things.
 
As the state adopts the doctrine of demons called “same-sex marriage”, what if the Church began to always call marriage between a man and a woman either “sacramental marriage” or “natural marriage” instead of just “marriage” to distinguish marriage as it was in the beginning from newly invented artificial concepts of “marriage”?
Suppose we keep church and state separate.

State could call it “partnership”

Church could call it “marriage”, implied “partnership” for legality. Same sex would be refused.

“Partnership” would then be for insurance and tax purposes for all.

Nothing is perfect, this might work out.

What do you think?
 
Suppose we keep church and state separate.

State could call it “partnership”

Church could call it “marriage”, implied “partnership” for legality. Same sex would be refused.

“Partnership” would then be for insurance and tax purposes for all.

Nothing is perfect, this might work out.

What do you think?
as soon as you make it legal the rest of us become second class citizens who have no religious freedom. you can’t get around that. And the Lavender mafia won’t let you. No business will be able to refuse service based on religious belief. There will be no conscientious objection possible. And that is when the persecution the bishops were talking about happens and people go to jail.
 
Suppose we keep church and state separate.

State could call it “partnership”

Church could call it “marriage”, implied “partnership” for legality. Same sex would be refused.
Implying that the (Roman Catholic, not Quaker or liberal Jews or other pro-gay-marriage churces) Church ‘owns’ the word “marriage”?

What do you think?
 
Implying that the (Roman Catholic, not Quaker or liberal Jews or other pro-gay-marriage churces) Church ‘owns’ the word “marriage”?

What do you think?
I think marriage is a fundamentally Church concept. Religious concept. If there were some kind of split that is how it would logically be, but likely any kind of spilt would be partial and murky. straight couples marry in and out of the church. This is not a problem for the churches who do not recognize the marriages done at JP’s and are not expected to. So this situation is fundamentally different because in this redefinition churches would be expected to not only recognize but hold these services of whatever you want to call them even though this is fundamentally against what the very religion in question (pick one it not a catholic issue) believes and professes. This leads to no religious freedom and jail time directly and immediately. It is in UK right NOW. it is a sad state of affairs.
 
There were probably a huge number of people who didn’t see a problem with widespread contraceptive and abortion use. Now, a good 50 years later, the so called “sexual revolution”, we have insane numbers of abortion, contraceptive use is widespread, their failure rates kinda high, as evidenced by the 54% of women seeking abortions were using contraception in the month they fell pregnant [PP’s stats]. Divorce, co-habitation, fornication, young men addicted to porn, more and mroe relationships failing, people heart broken and looking for love in all the wrong places. More families being “single parent” homes, kids growing up without fathers.

Tell me again about how the “slippery slope” argument is not really logical?

We are talking about something that is taking aim at the foundation of human society. All our civilizations have acknowledge the special relationship dynamic between one man and one woman getting together, committing to each other, and hopefully bearing and raising kids.

That is the ideal. To say that Bob and Barry’s union is on par with Jane’s and Steves if offensive and ignores the obvious that marriage is the foundation stone on which society is built. Chip away at that… well, the building will likely come falling down. Now, some make the argument that its no one’s business, that Bob and Barry’s union doesn’t affect them, and maybe it doesn’t. But it affects Bob and Barry’s families, their circles of friends, which will include children, who are going to want to know, who are going to ask questions, who are going to scandalised by this relationship. It will affect you if your govt. gives tax breaks to “families” and Bob and Barry with their nice gay disposable income and no children class as a “family”.

I’ll agree that what happens in some consenting adults’ bedroom I don’t care about and is really none of my buisness, so why then are those people demanding that it becomes my business when they are forcing society to change the formulae of marriage and claim all benefits, including some funded with my taxes. None of my business? Really?

And while as an adult, I can put on my big girl pants and suck it up and mind my own business, what about the children? I honestly don’t give a rat’s pink and wrinkly if Bob wants to get intimate with Barry, but don’t try and act as if its normal, and don’t demand marriage as your relationship title and don’t you dare force that filth on children! Giving them marriage rights will give them the right to adopt, to IVF funding and various child creation technologies. Children have the right to a mum and a dad, it is sad and unfortunate when children find a parent lost to divorce or death or because dad is a deadbeat and mum is pro-life, but creating a structure intentionally where a child is denied one gendered parent? That’s repugnant.

IT might not affect us grown ups too much, but it will affect children, and to say otherwise is just assinine and naive.

Give it 30 years post legalisation of gay “marriage” and then lets see the results, and who then will think it was such a great right?

As for the claim that same sex attracted people are somehow “second class citizens”, that’s thoroughly offensive to people around the world who realy are second class citizens, women in some Muslim countries, unable to drive, to leave the house without a male relative, to get an education.

SSA’d people can vote, go where they want, when they want [within all legal reason], they can get an education, they have the right to freedom of speech and assembly, they can own business and inherit property. To say they are second class citizens because they can’t “marry”, really is just a giant slap in the face of women who are stoned in Afganistan, the politican prisoners in China, the Jews who were gassed by the Nazis. Its nothing more than emotional grandstanding. Shame on whatever homosexual idiot coined that phrase in reference to their “plight”.

Marriage isn’t a right. It is a set formulae that if a person doesn’t meet the criteria too they can’t marry. Simple as that. Theyr’e still human beings. They are still able to exercise all other rights available.

The pro-“traditional”-marriage crowd have done a cruddy job at educating the public as to what marriage really is.
 
Suppose we keep church and state separate.

State could call it “partnership”

Church could call it “marriage”, implied “partnership” for legality. Same sex would be refused.

“Partnership” would then be for insurance and tax purposes for all.

Nothing is perfect, this might work out.

What do you think?
I think simply changing the name does not change the essence of what a thing is.
 
My marriage to my husband is not even remotely undermined or affected in any way by the fact Martha in the office is married to Mary.

Their relationship and marriage has no effect, influence or bearing on my marriage whatsoever.

None.

Sarah x 🙂
It undermines it quite a bit. Why do you think homosexuals hate being compared to pedophiles and bestialists? They feel undermined, they feel as thoough those other groups have nothing to do with their unions. This is how traditional marriage folks feel about SSM supporters.
 
No business will be able to refuse service based on religious belief.
You say that like it’s a bad thing. I for one am glad that businesses do not have the legal protection to create their own class of untouchables based on religious belief.
As for the claim that same sex attracted people are somehow “second class citizens”, that’s thoroughly offensive to people around the world who realy are second class citizens, women in some Muslim countries, unable to drive, to leave the house without a male relative, to get an education.

SSA’d people can vote, go where they want, when they want [within all legal reason], they can get an education, they have the right to freedom of speech and assembly, they can own business and inherit property. To say they are second class citizens because they can’t “marry”, really is just a giant slap in the face of women who are stoned in Afganistan, the politican prisoners in China, the Jews who were gassed by the Nazis. Its nothing more than emotional grandstanding. Shame on whatever homosexual idiot coined that phrase in reference to their “plight”.
Let’s not start comparing who has it worse. Let’s take issues in relation to what they are. You apparently think this same-sex marriage is important enough to discuss it on this forum but I’m not accuse you of not caring about the plight on women in Afghanistan.

And, FYI, gays were put to death in concentration camps. Just a history lesson.
 
It undermines it quite a bit. Why do you think homosexuals hate being compared to pedophiles and bestialists? They feel undermined, they feel as thoough those other groups have nothing to do with their unions. This is how traditional marriage folks feel about SSM supporters.
Not me.

And I am telling you, as a matter of fact, Martha and Mary from the office, being married, has no effect on my marriage, or my life, at all.

None at all.

You are free of course, to think what you like.

But those are the facts.

Sarah x 🙂
 
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