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estesbob
Guest
Eternal damnation.
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estesbob
Guest
So if the Church is wrong about this now can we trust anything elsethey have taught us?
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bingbang
Guest
lol, you got me bob. But once again that is not provable, just an opinion. Maybe you will be etarnally damned for not supported homosexuals.
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Mumbles140
Guest
Actually, the Old Testament was written by the Jews, and the New Testament is also written by Jews (the Gospels are simply eye-witness accounts written by Jewish men about the actions of Jesus Christ). It was the disciples who then took this information and began spreading the word that Christ is the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament (again, written by the Jews).
As for Challam, remember that ANY sexual act between two unmarried individuals is sinful. Remember also that the purpose of marriage is the procreation and education of offspring. Since M+M doesn’t equal children (nor does F+F), homosexual couples do not meet the purposes of marriage. And therefore, because they don’t marry, they are expected to live chaste lives, just like those people who remain unmarried.
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bingbang
Guest
Thats the thing…we can’t really trust anything they say as 100% truth. You need to think about these things with your own reasons. You shouldn’t just believe something because the church says so.
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bingbang
Guest
So Paul, Peter, John, etc are Jews? That is odd that the Catholic Church would canonize Jews.
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estesbob
Guest
Actually I should if I want to be saved. But then again if you don’t accept any authority but yourself there is no basis for discussion,
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challam2010
Guest
I know my post was way too long, but I did address both of these issues in it.
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Garyjohn2
Guest
If the church is wrong in this case, then all the other teachings could just as easily be wrong, including the ones you like (treating others as we want to be treated). If this is wrong, the entire foundation for our society, our human race, is wrong…meaningless.
There would be no more reason for law and order, for treating others well. There would be no “right” and “wrong” anymore. It would be for each person to decide. In the long run (several generations), this would lead to a breakdown in morals and a breakdown of our justice system.
The teachings on homosexuality are based in the bible. So is our justice system, our laws. So is our society’s conscience. We know what is right, and what is wrong. It’s been told by God, and passed down for millenia. Some people choose to forget, or pick and choose what they “like.” This is a bad idea, dangerous, and irresponsible!
There would be no more reason for law and order, for treating others well. There would be no “right” and “wrong” anymore. It would be for each person to decide. In the long run (several generations), this would lead to a breakdown in morals and a breakdown of our justice system.
The teachings on homosexuality are based in the bible. So is our justice system, our laws. So is our society’s conscience. We know what is right, and what is wrong. It’s been told by God, and passed down for millenia. Some people choose to forget, or pick and choose what they “like.” This is a bad idea, dangerous, and irresponsible!
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bingbang
Guest
Where are you getting this information that you need to believe in the Catholic Church to be saved? YOU are the authority for that too, even if you are just listening to the church. You could believe that you need to be a baptist to be saved too, or a muslim, or any other religion…but you picked Catholicism.
So what is your reasoning that if you want to be saved, you have to follow the church?
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FidesSpesCarita
Guest
I’ll play along…
IF the teaching that it was immoral to have homosexual relations was incorrect, then it would still be beneficial due to the pervasive promiscuity in the homosexual lifestyle (over 1 in 3 homosexuals admit to over 500 partners!!!). Homosexual activity is one of the risk factors for AIDS. Homosexuals have the highest rates of STDs of any segment of the population. Just from a medical standpoint it makes NO sense to be homosexual. So urging celibacy would be a VERY good idea.
Especially for males, how can putting something in the out door be viewed as a “good” thing? (I apologize if that was crude, but I dont know a better way to put it)
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SonCatcher
Guest
Human persons are male of female. They have the option to embrace their sex and all that it implies or they struggle against it but it cannot be changed nor can it be denied. A male will only find his sexuality completed in the embrace of a female and vice-versa.
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Garyjohn2
Guest
Bingbang, you seem to like to shoot from the hip, which is good in some situations, but not always for discussion.
The apostles were jews, as you know, having the heritage and religion they did. Believing in Christ, as they did, they were also christians, as you know.
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bingbang
Guest
Our laws are not really based on the Bible. There are a lot of things that are laws that have nothing to do with the Bible, and there are a lot of things that were outlawed in society’s before the Bible even existed.
Anyway, as for your argument that “There would be no more reason for law and order, for treating others well” if the church wasn’t right…its a horrible argument. There are plenty of people that are atheists that treat others with decency and respect. So your argument could be “well the fact that God exists lets these people act like this”…but you have absolutely no evidence to back this up. Arguments like this make me think that if certain people lacked religious beliefs they would be complete sociopaths. I hope that isn’t the case.
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estesbob
Guest
2000 years of teachings and traditions. For your premise, that homosexuality is moral, to be correct one of two things has to be true;
There is no God
There is a God but he allowed people to be wrong about the morality of homosexual behavior since the dawn of mankind
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bingbang
Guest
Odd, because homosexuals will not tell you that is true. To be honest I don’t even think that the Catholic Church will tell you that. The church isn’t asking these people to be with the opposite sex, they are asking these people to be celibate…as in they don’t think that these people can be emotionally completed in the embrace of a member of the opposite sex.
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bingbang
Guest
I would guess the second one. And not everyone thinks that homosexuality is wrong and have “since the dawn of mankind.” And if god was so keen on correcting people’s religious beliefs, wouldn’t there only be one religion?
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estesbob
Guest
There is. But many reject it.
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Garyjohn2
Guest
I’d say our most important laws are based on biblical principle. That can be a whole extra thread though. Some of these most important laws include stealing and murder. Yes, some of these things were outlawed before the bible, but the reason they are laws in this country is because they were understood to be bad things…because they are stated as such in the bible.
There are many atheists who live good lives, this is true. But why? It’s because of the way they were raised. Why did their parents have these good values? Because of the way they were raised. Eventually it will go back to someone who had a good christian upbringing, (or perhaps an upbringing from a different religion with similar values). Consciences are not natural things…they are formed. God’s law, and church teaching, give to us the proper framework for a well developed conscience. It was given by God, and passed down. To claim one part of it is wrong is to discount the entire thing. Then what is a good conscience? What keeps it from changing whenever we want?
The point is these teachings have been passed down through religion. In this nation, christianity. Our sense of order, what is good, and what is evil goes back far longer than human memory. It’s irresponsible to ignore this.
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Mumbles140
Guest
I know, and I was driving the point home again. You yourself are against gay marriage, and if that prevents sexual activity, I don’t see your reasoning for debate.
People are given plenty of hardships that they suffer through - mental illness, physical handicaps or deformities, countless things. All that God asks is to remain faithful to Him and His commandments, regardless of the cross you are asked to bear (unless, of course, your actions do not merit sinfulness due to certain factors).
As for bingbang, your comments on the Early Church Fathers were handled quite elegantly by Garyjohn2!
Edited for: Grammar
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