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VetA
Guest
if you dont take the churches teaching or the bible as authoritative, you wont accept any argument given here,
the simple fact that there are two genders should be proof enough, but you wont accept that will you?
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the simple fact that there are two genders should be proof enough, but you wont accept that will you?
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FidesSpesCarita
Guest
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Mumbles140
Guest
It just struck me that you are talking strictly about LMHR or whatever that acronym decided for it is, and we all generally accept the dangers and issues with open ‘free love’ sexuality, whether hetero or homo. But if the Church were to be wrong, and these specific relationships would be permittable, who then is the judge of what qualifies and what doesn’t? If we are talking about a moral issue between open sexuality and committed relationships, then the Church likely provides authoritative teaching. So, under your hypothesis, the Church is wrong, but we as society would likely turn to the Church to determine what qualifies and what doesn’t as a ‘moral’ homosexual relationship?
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ZDHayden
Guest
I think one important thing to realize is – and I did not read all of the previous posts so I am not entirely sure someone did not already state this but – if the Church, thanks to the whole infallibility thing, is wrong in ONE teaching, regardless of what it is, you cannot trust the rest of the teachings. It becomes a free-for-all that anyone has the right to choose whichever teaching they agree with and abandon any they disagree with. Essentially, the Church is no better than the Protestant communities by your scenario and is just another human institution that just so happened to get a few things right, just like everyone else.
So, if the Church is truly wrong, and not merely inconvenient as many people actually see it, we should all just stop and each form a religion of one, like Anne Rice, because we’d have the same odds of being right as the Catholic Church if she (the Church) were wrong on one issue related to morals and faith.
So, if the Church is truly wrong, and not merely inconvenient as many people actually see it, we should all just stop and each form a religion of one, like Anne Rice, because we’d have the same odds of being right as the Catholic Church if she (the Church) were wrong on one issue related to morals and faith.
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SonCatcher
Guest
The OP concedes in post #1 that the teachings on contraception, fornication and masturbation have non-religious support to them.
I asserted in post #42 that homosexual behavior is equally disordered due to the lack of complementarity and that those engaging in it knowingly do so against their own nature.
Since nobody has offered a rebuttal, should that be regarded a concession, as well?
I asserted in post #42 that homosexual behavior is equally disordered due to the lack of complementarity and that those engaging in it knowingly do so against their own nature.
Since nobody has offered a rebuttal, should that be regarded a concession, as well?
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crazzeto
Guest
The first reply to this thread has proven the premise of the thread completely wrong and off base already… I sense a discussion going no where fast. The OP may reject God, but this is something which I and certainly the vast majoirty of posters here don’t do. God’s Word isn’t wrong, homosexuality is a grave sin and it should be discouraged.
Interestingly, it would also seem to me that the OP hasn’t bothered researching the validity of his own position very much. The objective evidence to date shows:
Interestingly, it would also seem to me that the OP hasn’t bothered researching the validity of his own position very much. The objective evidence to date shows:
- There is no basis to believe gay people are “born gay”, there is no “gay gene”, there is no proven biological factor.
- Homosexual relationships are highly unstable. In fact the vast majority of so called gay marriages are being conducted in the context of a so-called “open relationship”. In this relationship there is no real exclusivity, in fact in many cases there’s no real commitment to actually even live together permenantly.
- STD rates are still higher among homosexuals
- There are a host of other health concerns related, in particular, to male homosexuality.
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estesbob
Guest
He has corrected other people’s religious beliefs. He has given them a Church that is the receptacle of truth for all time. It is interesting that one of the few time things that nearly all the thousands of Christian denominations that have left the church agree with the church on his immorality of home will sexual behavior.
It is also interesting that when people come to these forums to tell us the church is wrong it is almost always concerning homosexual behavior or abortion. Who are you trying to convince that the Church is wrong-us or yourself
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bingbang
Guest
Yes, I have. Maybe Islam is right. Maybe Buddhism is right. Maybe Hinduism is right. Maybe none of them are right. Maybe there is no God or afterlife at all. To be honest I’m not so sure.
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bingbang
Guest
Now if you could prove this to me then I would agree with it. But there is no way of concluding this, and to be honest I don’t even think you could make a rational argument for this conclusion.
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bingbang
Guest
So a belief is a “what if” only when it isn’t in line with the church? God being against homosexuality is acceptable but God not being against homosexuality is equivalent to gravity not existing? Seriously?
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bingbang
Guest
Just because there are two genders it means that people of one gender being together romantically is wrong? Am I missing the link here? There are two genders, yes, but I don’t understand how that then leads to homosexuality being wrong.
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crazzeto
Guest
In order to accept your point of view one would have to believe we know nothing of God what so ever… This is clearly false, we know a good deal about God… God in fact, has put a lot of time in effort into making sure we know him.
Because we know God, we also know something of God’s opinion’s on certain matters. With regard to homosexuality, we know for certain that God is completely against it. It is a sin which can condem a soul.
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bingbang
Guest
Exactly.
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thevoiceofone
Guest
“bingbang,”
God loves you just as much as He does the rest of us. I think you are very confused, so it’s hard for me to tell exactly what you believe in. I get the sense that you have some respect for the Church, but little faith in it. I also get the feeling that your lack of faith in the Church may be caused by the conflict between its teachings and the way you wish life to be. There are many conflicting views among Christians, in general, and even Christians who call themselves Catholic. Hence the term, “Cafeteria Catholics” …they take what they like and leave what they don’t. They are not truly Catholic, in other words. This is the same basic reason we have almost three thousand denominations of Christianity today. Considering the apostolic tradition, I’d recommend you to have more faith in the teachings of the Catholic Church more so than any other… if you believe in Jesus Christ, of course.
Besides all that, let me get to your original question. What if we (the Catholic Church) are wrong about our teaching that a homosexual relationship is wrong? Well, if we’re wrong about that, we must be wrong about everything else, pretty much. I would agree with most of what has been written to you already about this. I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church, my self, but I didn’t always. I left the Church, officially, for about 17 years. It was about 8 years ago that I bothered to search and research for the answers I was lacking in my life. I say this only to point out that I once too questioned the teachings of the Church. But, I dare you to put aside your selfish agendas and approach the teachings of the Church with an open heart and mind. Our faith is not blind.
Now, if you don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, or even the existence of God (the God of Abraham) in any form, there is *still *an argument against homosexuality. It is clearly against nature. It is out of order by the very physical characteristics of male and female. Male and female were meant to join together, obviously.
On a higher level (spiritual or psychological), outside of having faith in the God of Abraham, anything supporting the practice of homosexuality is really just based upon “feeling good,” which can not be accepted socially as a rational basis for judging what is right or wrong. There is no end to what some may consider “good” under that sort of judgement system. I’m sure raping makes a rapist feel good. I’m sure murdering makes some murderers feel good. Do you see what I mean? Now, I certainly don’t mean to compare homosexuals to rapists and murderers. Please don’t see it that way. I only mean to make my point by showing some extreme ends to judging what is right and wrong based upon what makes one happy. It’s just not a logical guage for judgement.
I’m not sure if you are homosexual yourself or just arguing on their behalf. I will assume you are homosexual. Feeling attracted to another person of the same sex is not a sin, but acting upon it is. So, you or anyone else who engages in such sexual activity are committing a sin.
I have known and befriended many homosexuals in my life. I know there are real feelings involved. I am very sorry for all of them. All these friends of mine I view as basically good people, as good, or even better than me in many different ways. We are all sinners. Surely, there is much evil among them, but homosexuals are not evil just by being homosexual. I am faced with all kinds of evil my self, as we all are in this life, and I am weak. I fall from grace on a regular basis, but I strive to reconcile my self to God with fear and trembling and follow Him to my salvation.
As far as judgement is concerned, read Matthew 25 (all of it, but mostly the second half). I do not condemn you. But, I do not support you. Every reasonable argument is against you in this matter. I hope you will see that someday.
God bless you.
(if you don’t believe in God, then…) Good luck.
God loves you just as much as He does the rest of us. I think you are very confused, so it’s hard for me to tell exactly what you believe in. I get the sense that you have some respect for the Church, but little faith in it. I also get the feeling that your lack of faith in the Church may be caused by the conflict between its teachings and the way you wish life to be. There are many conflicting views among Christians, in general, and even Christians who call themselves Catholic. Hence the term, “Cafeteria Catholics” …they take what they like and leave what they don’t. They are not truly Catholic, in other words. This is the same basic reason we have almost three thousand denominations of Christianity today. Considering the apostolic tradition, I’d recommend you to have more faith in the teachings of the Catholic Church more so than any other… if you believe in Jesus Christ, of course.
Besides all that, let me get to your original question. What if we (the Catholic Church) are wrong about our teaching that a homosexual relationship is wrong? Well, if we’re wrong about that, we must be wrong about everything else, pretty much. I would agree with most of what has been written to you already about this. I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church, my self, but I didn’t always. I left the Church, officially, for about 17 years. It was about 8 years ago that I bothered to search and research for the answers I was lacking in my life. I say this only to point out that I once too questioned the teachings of the Church. But, I dare you to put aside your selfish agendas and approach the teachings of the Church with an open heart and mind. Our faith is not blind.
Now, if you don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, or even the existence of God (the God of Abraham) in any form, there is *still *an argument against homosexuality. It is clearly against nature. It is out of order by the very physical characteristics of male and female. Male and female were meant to join together, obviously.
On a higher level (spiritual or psychological), outside of having faith in the God of Abraham, anything supporting the practice of homosexuality is really just based upon “feeling good,” which can not be accepted socially as a rational basis for judging what is right or wrong. There is no end to what some may consider “good” under that sort of judgement system. I’m sure raping makes a rapist feel good. I’m sure murdering makes some murderers feel good. Do you see what I mean? Now, I certainly don’t mean to compare homosexuals to rapists and murderers. Please don’t see it that way. I only mean to make my point by showing some extreme ends to judging what is right and wrong based upon what makes one happy. It’s just not a logical guage for judgement.
I’m not sure if you are homosexual yourself or just arguing on their behalf. I will assume you are homosexual. Feeling attracted to another person of the same sex is not a sin, but acting upon it is. So, you or anyone else who engages in such sexual activity are committing a sin.
I have known and befriended many homosexuals in my life. I know there are real feelings involved. I am very sorry for all of them. All these friends of mine I view as basically good people, as good, or even better than me in many different ways. We are all sinners. Surely, there is much evil among them, but homosexuals are not evil just by being homosexual. I am faced with all kinds of evil my self, as we all are in this life, and I am weak. I fall from grace on a regular basis, but I strive to reconcile my self to God with fear and trembling and follow Him to my salvation.
As far as judgement is concerned, read Matthew 25 (all of it, but mostly the second half). I do not condemn you. But, I do not support you. Every reasonable argument is against you in this matter. I hope you will see that someday.
God bless you.
(if you don’t believe in God, then…) Good luck.
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bingbang
Guest
I said that the teachings on contraception, fornication, and masturbation were not likely to impede on one’s happiness. I didn’t say that these things were immoral.
Also, I don’t think that homosexuality is “against their own nature.” And if it is, it is probably no more against one’s nature than being a celibate priest.
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Newbie2
Guest
What outside authority would suffice?
It doesn’t??
You mean apart from the medical issues?
Apparently, yes, you’re missing it.
A + B = OK
A + A = NOT OK
B + B = NOT OK
Understand?
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bingbang
Guest
I didn’t say the church was wrong…I just said imagine if it was. And I don’t agree with abortion.
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bingbang
Guest
Yes, we know for certain. Can you give me evidence of that? If you know something for certain shouldn’t you be able to prove it?
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crazzeto
Guest
Post #2 proves this beyond a doubt. Thanks.
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Garyjohn2
Guest
You would do well to refer to the many other discussions you’ve had regarding evidence for God, the scriptures, and the authority of the church. If you still don’t accept the evidence provided for you, you would do well to search your own heart.
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