What if the Church's teaching on homosexuality is wrong?

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Great rebuttal! What if I don’t take the Bible or the Church’s teachings as authority? Just tell me a hypothetical…what if the teaching is wrong?

Maybe I should rephrase the question. IF the teaching were to be wrong (hypothetically), would you agree that it would negatively effect the people’s lives who were celibate as homosexuals because of the church teaching? Do you think that their life would be better or worse for listening to this teaching that was hypothetically false.
The church believes it is a disorder. The American Psychiatric Association decided in 1973 not to classify homosexuality as a form of “sexual abnormality”, and a similar move was taken by the World Health Organization which expressed their view that homosexual orientation is not inferior to heterosexual orientation in their ICD-10 published in 1993 with no real evidence to show. The reason this was done is because of political pressure from the left.
 
I’m rebutting this… the Catholic Church has conceded that homosexuals are by nature, and therefore made by God to be, homosexual. .
This is not true. The church has no teaching on the cause of same-sex attraction . The reason for this it is is totally irrelevant-the Church says regardless of the cause of same-sex attraction homosexual behavior is a choice.

As with all sinners homosexuals should be treated with love and respect.
 
Faith is not objectively absolute…it is just absolute in the mind of the person who believes it. Which really doesn’t say much at all.
I have faith in God. You have faith in yourself, or is I’m sure you tell yourself, faith in knowledge. I am sure you believe that while we are driven by superstition you are driven only by knowledge and again, in your mind, logic… Not exactly a new faith, and yes it is a faith. It is just warmed over Gnosticism, which has been around since about the first century BC.

As I’ve said before a debate with someone who considers themselves intellectually superior yet offers no proofs that their opinion is pretty useless.
 
I’ve pondered your theory as a possible justification for homosexuality previously in a purely scientific context (there is none theologically), and it falls completely flat. If what you say is true, that this is “natures way” (or Gods way as you suggest) of protecting the earth from over population then you would see very high instances of homosexuality (percentage wise) in heaveily populated nations like China or India.

But you don’t see that, you also don’t see it in the animal kingdome. We are made to go forth and multiply, period. By the way, as I stated earlier there is no clear indication for what causes homosexuality. What we do know is that it is not genetic. You aren’t born that way, evironmental conditions of some sort change you to become this way.
This is speculation, not fact. Facts are that we don’t know all the factors involved. But as you say below, Bob, the cause of the attraction is irrelevant, it’s the behavior that is the choice.

Maybe that’s what you’re saying i.e. that the **behavior **is not genetic…if so, yes, I agree. The cause…we just don’t know and may never know.
The church has no teaching on the cause of same-sex attraction . The reason for this it is is totally irrelevant-the Church says regardless of the cause of same-sex attraction homosexual behavior is a choice.

As with all sinners homosexuals should be treated with love and respect.
This is what’s important. 👍
 
Let me answer this question by comparing it to gambling. A good bet is one where the conditions are favorable based on probability. A bad one is when they are not. The winning and losing are irrelevant to whether the bet is good or bad.

If the information and reasoning behind a belief system seems correct and you act according to them you are not doing a bad thing. If you were a juror and convicted a man of murder who was executed based on the evidence before you, but later the evidence was proven tainted, you can not say you did something wrong.
For certain types of religious people this kind of question is very difficult to even think about. That is not because they are stupid, though some may be. If I were to ask; if at the end of life you discovered there was no God, would you regret the moral choices you have made. Many religious people would find it hard to even approach the question because to them is not an academic exercise. The question poses a challenge to their fundamental faith. And many would not want that possibility of doubt to creep in.
There are certain things one gets out of having absolute faith. Of course I can argue that one may also lose some intellectual objectivity, which has it’s own risks and problems. But it is really not possible for many of the people here to address this issue the way you would want.

The answer, just one would feel pain for the innocent who was executed, one would feel a certain level of sadness for any potential pain your theoretical homosexual couple may have experienced, one would not feel they had done something wrong because their actions were based on the best information and beliefs available to them at the time.
However it is just very difficult for some religious people the really address this kind of question, and you really can not expect them to.
 
Let me answer this question by comparing it to gambling. A good bet is one where the conditions are favorable based on probability. A bad one is when they are not. The winning and losing are irrelevant to whether the bet is good or bad.

If the information and reasoning behind a belief system seems correct and you act according to them you are not doing a bad thing. If you were a juror and convicted a man of murder who was executed based on the evidence before you, but later the evidence was proven tainted, you can not say you did something wrong.
For certain types of religious people this kind of question is very difficult to even think about. That is not because they are stupid, though some may be. If I were to ask; if at the end of life you discovered there was no God, would you regret the moral choices you have made. Many religious people would find it hard to even approach the question because to them is not an academic exercise. The question poses a challenge to their fundamental faith. And many would not want that possibility of doubt to creep in.
There are certain things one gets out of having absolute faith. Of course I can argue that one may also lose some intellectual objectivity, which has it’s own risks and problems. But it is really not possible for many of the people here to address this issue the way you would want.

The answer, just one would feel pain for the innocent who was executed, one would feel a certain level of sadness for any potential pain your theoretical homosexual couple may have experienced, one would not feel they had done something wrong because their actions were based on the best information and beliefs available to them at the time.
However it is just very difficult for some religious people the really address this kind of question, and you really can not expect them to.
I see what you are saying. If a juror is presented all kinds of evidence saying that a man is guilty, and is going to vote that way…its like someone coming up to him and saying “but what if you’re wrong?” The juror can review the evidence again, and weigh his decision. Then the same questioner says, “but what if you’re wrong?”

These kinds of doubts don’t have a place in this situation. The evidence has been gathered, and a decision has to be made. Constant nagging questions won’t get the juror anywhere in this case. In the case of this thread, the evidence has also been gathered and decided upon long, long ago. Thousands of years ago even. Asking “but what if they’re wrong?” at this point is really silly.

But what if they are wrong? Well then I guess active homosexuals can go to heaven and those that spoke out against them go to hell. Is that the answer that was being sought?

What if we are wrong about murder? What if it is really right to kill one another, and we’ve had it all backwards? How would you feel when you’ve discovered this, and learned about all the murderer’s we’ve put behind bars all these years, ruining thier lives for doing what’s right? I’m not saying that murder is the same as homosexuality. I’m saying that you can ask this same question about any moral or legal issue. If the answer is clearly available to us, it’s really silly…to me at least. There is no reason for it.

I can truly appreciate critical analysis, and the quest for intellectual objectivity in discerning what is moral or not. But really, I don’t think discussions like this are important. Those with faith know the answer, and trust in it. For those without faith, the die has been cast. They are the ones that have to worry about making a “good” or “bad” bet.
 
[BIBLEDRB]Leviticus 20:13[/BIBLEDRB]
Should I go back to the ER that helped me on a Sunday a few months back and kill the doctors and nurses?

Exodus 35:2 Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

What about misbehaving kids? You truly think we should kill them?

“Stone disobedient children” (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

How about mixed crops in a field? Or cotton and linen clothes at the same time? Should we kill those who do that too?

“Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee” (Leviticus 19:19).

If you don’t think we should kill people for working on the Sabbath, or for being disobedient children, yet you condemn people’s sexual practices for words coming from the same document, is that not cherry picking?
 
Should I go back to the ER that helped me on a Sunday a few months back and kill the doctors and nurses?

Exodus 35:2 Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

What about misbehaving kids? You truly think we should kill them?

“Stone disobedient children” (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

How about mixed crops in a field? Or cotton and linen clothes at the same time? Should we kill those who do that too?

“Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee” (Leviticus 19:19).

If you don’t think we should kill people for working on the Sabbath, or for being disobedient children, yet you condemn people’s sexual practices for words coming from the same document, is that not cherry picking?
Do you think there are no answers to why Christians don’t follow all the OT laws? Do you think, that after thousands of years of scholarship, teaching, and critical assessment that no one has realized “Hey, we don’t follow some of these laws, why follow the rest then?”
🙂 You’ll have to look it up.

Jesus himself said, when they were going to stone a woman for being unfaithful, “he that is without sin, cast the first stone.” He is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, and we are to forgive instead of stone people. That doesn’t make it right for 2 men to lay together, or for children to misbehave even. Right and wrong do not change, but forgiveness can change everything.

What is right and wrong do not change.
 
Do you think, that after thousands of years of scholarship, teaching, and critical assessment that no one has realized “Hey, we don’t follow some of these laws, why follow the rest then?”
🙂 You’ll have to look it up.
Really?

That’s what you got?

Ya’ll use Leviticus to point out the ‘amomination’ that is homosexuality, and when it’s pointed out to you that it and other books call for some pretty radical, funky stuff, all you got is ‘we don’t follow some of those laws’.

Really? Are they not the word of God? Are you not putting your salvation in jeopardy by arrogantly declaring that your assessment is above God’s?

Things that make you go hmmm…
 
Really?

That’s what you got?

Ya’ll use Leviticus to point out the ‘amomination’ that is homosexuality, and when it’s pointed out to you that it and other books call for some pretty radical, funky stuff, all you got is ‘we don’t follow some of those laws’.

Really? Are they not the word of God? Are you not putting your salvation in jeopardy by arrogantly declaring that your assessment is above God’s?

Things that make you go hmmm…
Don’t just say hmm…look it up, search the forum.

Homosexuality is stated as a sin in the new and old testaments. The Bible does not contradict itself, only clarifies. If you want to learn, do so, but don’t criticize until you learn…right?
 
Rational evidence has been presented by numerous posters. You have responded irrationally to some and ignored the rest.

Also, the rational response is uncertainty since the rational mind acknowledges that not all evidence may be present. Only faith can be absolute (that is, 100%).
Faith is only absolute within the individual. It has absolutely nothing to do with truth. Unless of course every faithful believer in every religion was right, but I don’t think that is true.
 
Post #80 addressed that. 😉

I think this thread is complete.
So you believe that the Bible’s authority has been proven? It hasn’t been proven. Anything that has been proven doesn’t need faith to back it up.
 
Maybe we have to have a discussion about the difference between ethics and morality then.

Also, you said that incest is “disordered” but not morally wrong. What is the difference between disorder and morality, in your view?

Also, there is a previous post explaining how priestly celibacy is not unnatural. I can’t find it. In my opinion, it is completely natural for humans to resist their more base urges for a higher purpose.
Just because something is disordered doesn’t mean it is wrong. A fear of germs that causes you to wash your hands hundreds of times a day is disordered, but it is not morally wrong.
 
So you believe that the Bible’s authority has been proven? It hasn’t been proven. Anything that has been proven doesn’t need faith to back it up.
I’m saying the bible’s authority has been discussed in many threads with your participation, and it has been backed up with good evidence and reason. Where evidence and reasons don’t prove it enough for your liking then faith will have to substitute.

You have very high standards, bingbang, and I’m not sure if many things can be proven to extent that you desire…in the realm of religion or otherwise. 🙂
 
There are many moral Atheists, but I would argue all good moral systems do come from God, or religion per post #39 and #58.
Well if you believe in God you can say that anything good that anyone ever does comes from God (Paul basically says this in Romans). But there really isn’t much support for this argument. And if you make this argument you also have to place a supernatural being behind the bad thins that people do (which many would say is the devil). So are God and the devil battling for good and evil? Because if they are, it seems like the devil is winning, and that doesn’t make much theological sense, does it.

As for atheists being good people because at some point their ancestors were likely once religious…that is absolutely preposterous and has absolutely no proof beyond a hunch.
 
You must remember also that ultimately nothing is proven. All so called human knowledge is really simply axiomatic assumption based on observation. At a profoundly real level nothing is ever conclusively proven about anything.
But the law of gravity has a lot more evidence than the existence of God.
 
Nietzsche would disagree. Morality (a system where things are objectively right and objectively wrong) follows a system of laws. When you remove religion from the equation the only laws left to base morals off of are natural laws. If something is against the natural law, it is then “immoral” not in the sense that it is bad, but in the sense that it is non-beneficial. That being the case, though you may know “moral” atheists as well as I, we both look at them from a religious standpoint where words like “moral” and “immoral” make sense. Outside of that system, the only thing left are the natural laws. That being the case, since you said homosexuality is unnatural, you are then in a way saying it is “immoral”. So it stands…you’re kinda stuck at a loss.
Just because something is natural doesn’t make it moral. In terms of humanity there are a lot of things I could do that could be considered natural that certainly aren’t moral. I could even make an argument that rape is natural and impregnating as many women as possible would help our species grow. Many animals practice this type of “natural morality.” Seems pretty moral, right?
 
But the law of gravity has a lot more evidence than the existence of God.
Gravity has more easily available physical evidence. God, being spiritual in nature, has evidence written in hearts and souls, as well as otherwise.

There will never be enough physical evidence to “prove” or “disprove” God.
 
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