What if the Pope was wrong?

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Mallory, Just because a person believes once saved, always saved does not make it so. These people would have to have perfect contrition if in mortal sin. If they had this, they can be saved. Note, I am saying it is possible for them to be saved. Not that they will be saved. The CCC covers this issue in discussing the marks of the Church as One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. read the section under Catholic. It will explain much.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Jeanette makes some interesting points here that I would like to comment on.
This is a wonderful explanation. I am a convert to the Catholic Church from Evangelicalism.
Thanks
It was purely grace that brought me here. I cannot say why God poured his grace my way, giving me the desire to search for the whole truth, and yet not give that desire to others.
God gives different graces to different people at different times. This is the whole purpose of the Church. If we were all to received the same gifts, there would be no need for us to live in community. The gifts are ment to be shared. We see this in the NT. Paul describes it well. We also see in the Gospels that many are called to be desciples, but only 12 are called to be Apostles. We also see that Jesus speaks to all about the Kingdom of God, but reveals his true nature to a select few. It is their mission to teach what has been revealed to them to the others.
I cannot say that this desire started within me apart from Him, so that leaves this huge question as to why? And I don’t know that there is an answer.
Of course there’s an answer, Turkey. God brings us out of nothingness out of sheer love, through no merit of our own. In this regard, Martin Luther was correct. There is nothing that we can do to earn God’s love. God’s love is completely free. The desire to find the fullness of truth is the gift of grace. Grace is the Divine life within us. That life was given to you out of sheer love for you. Read Jn 17: 21-26 and substitute “them” with your name and you’ll see the why.
But I know that there are those I left behind who love God and who live holy lives and it is not for us to say why God does not draw them to us, or reveal the truth of Catholicism to all as he seems to do to some.
As the Holy Father said in NY, God will reveal all things in time. We have to begin a dialogue that takes place at two levels. 1. The individual and God. 2. Between Catholics and those who are not. As we proceed in this dialogue, things become clearer, if they are expressed and explained with great charity always recognizing that people want to fulifll the will of God, for it is written in the human heart. But we have to be patient with them and remember that we cannot push grace anymore than we can push nature.
In this we have to trust in his Mercy, he knows and loves more perfectly than we. And only God will judge, and his judgements will be perfect. And thank God that God is God and not any of us. There would be no hope for any. 😉
This was demonstrated when Jesus ran into the crowd that wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery. Jesus said, “Let him who has no sin, throw the first stone.” Fortuntely, his mother was not around.

That being said, he tells the woman to go and sin no more. Most importantly, he says, “neither do I condemn you.” God has more restraint on his judgement than we give him credit for and his mercy is infinite.

The key is for human beings to strike the balance between judgement and mercy so that it coincides with Christ’s balance. Jesus had most balanced personality in history. We have to arrive there.

JR 🙂
 
I have my doubts about this. I don’t see JPII saying that non-catholics can “legally” receive communion in a Catholic church. As far as salvation in other churches, membership alone does not gaurantee salvation.
I don’t like the pope and I am not afraid to say that. A lot of devout catholics who don’t like the pope would be FEARFUL to say that and they wouldn’t. Thats sad!
 
I don’t like the pope and I am not afraid to say that. A lot of devout catholics who don’t like the pope would be FEARFUL to say that and they wouldn’t. Thats sad!
Why do you say this of the Vicar of Christ on Earth? The man chosen by the Holy Spirit, the successor of Peter and the keeper of the Keys. Why would you say this without shame or fear?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
I have my doubts about this. I don’t see JPII saying that non-catholics can “legally” receive communion in a Catholic church. As far as salvation in other churches, membership alone does not gaurantee salvation.
The law is that other Christians can receive Holy Communion provided that they are in a state of grace, they believe in the real presence and they have the permission of the ordinary.

No one can offer holy communion to a non Catholic Christian without permission of an ordinary. An ordinary can be a bishop or a major religious superior if the communion is to take place in a religious house.

This was included in the Catechism and approved by John Paul II and in the second edition approved by Benedict XVI.

Benedict XVI has knowingly and deliberately given communion to non Catholic Christians in at least two public situations. Both situations happened in the Diocese of Rome. He is the ordinary of that diocese. In those cases he was acting as the Bishop of the Diocese of Rome, not as Pope.

JR 🙂
 
I don’t like the pope and I am not afraid to say that. A lot of devout catholics who don’t like the pope would be FEARFUL to say that and they wouldn’t. Thats sad!
You don’t have to like the Pope. You don’t have to invite him to your house for tea or accept his invitation.

All you have to do, as a Catholic is recognize his office and his authority and submit to it.

JR 🙂
 
I for one would love to have the Pope over for tea. Perhaps I should send an invitation to Vatican City 😃

Incidentally this reminds me of a sign in a bar window in Virginia during the Queen’s visit to America. “The Queen eats free!”

Perhaps that would work for His Holiness?

Either that or “Genuine Bavarian Food & Beverage Served Here” :hmmm:
 
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No it isn’t. This woman in question **HAS NOT **looked at the history of the faith, all of her teachings, and scriptiral evidence. **THAT IS WHY **she said 'it is a nice church"
If she truly had looked into the evidence she would have become Catholic.

And I am speaking of this one woman and her particular case. But how many ordinary church going protestants really fit the category of what you have described above?
Now here is a fellow, an anglican, who does know what the church teaches and he rejects it and HE WILL NOT BE SAVED.
cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7342
“We object to the Pope claiming to be the Vicar of Christ. We reject all claims to authority that imply the insufficiency of scripture. We reject any implication that Jesus’s work on the cross was insufficient or is received by more than faith or requires some other mediator,” Reverend Jensen said.
There is nothing in modern Roman Catholicism that reduces our need to protest. They have not repented of their Reformation errors."

This is what I have said
.

Disagree. She is invincibily ignorant of the truth.

Let me repeat what I said earlier. It is expremely difficult for a protestant to be saved because they do not have the sacrifice of the Mass and the seven sacraments. They must live a moral life just like a Catholic and if they do that and they are baptized and are through no fault of their own ignorant of the Church then they will be saved.

Pope Pius IX *Quanto Conficiamur Moerore *

"There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency **do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments’
“ Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church.
Eternal salvation cannot be obtained **by those **who oppose the authority **and statements of the same Church and are **stubbornly separated **from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter…9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. unhappily fallen and strive to guide First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation. "
The Pope can be wrong as much as I am. He is a human being just like me. He is an imperfect being that can commit sin just like the rest of us.
 
The Pope can be wrong as much as I am. He is a human being just like me. He is an imperfect being that can commit sin just like the rest of us.
You can be wrong on aspects of faith and morals, the Pope cannot. He is infallible on issues concerning faith and morals.
 
I would like to thank you all for your contributions to this discussion. I truly appreciate your insights and your help in crafting my response to my friend. I do have a couple of followup questions, if you don’t mind:

Does anyone have thoughts on the statement made by the USCCB which was stated outright to be heretical by saint rafael? I understand where the contradications lie, but where does that leave us as a community of Catholics under their leadership? Why would they make a heretical statement? Is there additional information I need to know before I tell my friend that the US Bishops are committing heresy and therefore, don’t listen to what they say?

Can someone give me the overview of the churches that believe they are the true Catholic church since Vatican II? I can’t remember what I know about them, and I believe these are the folks churning out the literature calling JPII a heretic, but I’d like to back up that assertion with a little more info. If there are valid Roman Catholic complaints that JP II was a heretic, I am open to knowing those sources as well.

Again, my gratitude to you all. Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts and help us all get a little closer to God!

Blessings,
Krista
 
=kmleo;3760507]
Does anyone have thoughts on the statement made by the USCCB which was stated outright to be heretical by saint rafael? I understand where the contradications lie, but where does that leave us as a community of Catholics under their leadership? Why would they make a heretical statement? Is there additional information I need to know before I tell my friend that the US Bishops are committing heresy and therefore, don’t listen to what they say?
Not sure what you are referring to. One Cardinal Kasper has said that conversion is no longer necessary but that is HIS opinion. The official Church teaching is that conversion is still desired and necessary.
Can someone give me the overview of the churches that believe they **are the true Catholic church **since Vatican II?
Only one Church that I know of claims to be the One True Church, an that is the Catholic Church.
I can’t remember what I know about them, and I believe these are the folks churning out the literature calling JPII a heretic, but I’d like to back up that assertion with a little more info
.
There are fringe groups that believe that all of the Popes since Vatican II are false. These folks are known as sedevacantists and they have no basis for their claim. They are being deceived by Satan himself.
If there are valid Roman Catholic complaints that JP II was a heretic, I am open to knowing those sources as well.
He was not. The group above makes those claims. There are no valid claims. They have taken his words out of context. They claim Pope Benedict is a false Pope. Can you think of anything he has done that is hereticial?
 
The Pope can be wrong as much as I am. He is a human being just like me. He is an imperfect being that can commit sin just like the rest of us.
On this you are correct with the exception of faith and morals. As pope, he is infallible when teaching ex cathedra on faith on morals. If you do not believe this, you are not Catholic, no matter what you call yourself.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
On this you are correct with the exception of faith and morals. As pope, he is infallible when teaching ex cathedra on faith on morals. If you do not believe this, you are not Catholic, no matter what you call yourself.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that the Church is to consider it definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as “We declare, decree and define…”), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. For example, in 1950, with Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII’s infallible definition regarding the Assumption of Mary, there are attached these words: “Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.”

What was the last “ex cathedra” pronouncement that you have heard by a pope?
 
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that the Church is to consider it definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as “We declare, decree and define…”), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. For example, in 1950, with Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII’s infallible definition regarding the Assumption of Mary, there are attached these words: “Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.”

What was the last “ex cathedra” pronouncement that you have heard by a pope?
Do you know of any Vat II documents that contain the above pronouncements?

That’s what confuses me, is the lack of “anathemas.” It seems sometimes like we have the option to explore these ideas, and sometimes it seems like we don’t.
 
Our Refuge:
There are fringe groups that believe that all of the Popes since Vatican II are false. These folks are known as sedevacantists and they have no basis for their claim. They are being deceived by Satan himself.
Thank you!! This was the term I could not remember. And no, I had no reason to believe that JP II had committed heresy, but since I started this thread to ensure that I had the correct information to provide a friend who was struggling with apparent contradictions between what JPII and Benedict XVI have said, I wanted to have all of my bases covered. Thanks for sealing it all up and thanks to all of you for contributing to the discussion!

Krista
 
What I find fascinating about Papal issues, is how some traditional folks want to claim that certains statements by some previous Pope are binding on all future Popes forever.

By this logic, after a period of years/Popes, pretty much all issues would be covered, forever, and future Popes would be nothing more than figureheads, which I find rather hard to believe.

Are Popes not guided by the Holy Spirit? Did Christ himself not “modify” his teachings from chapter to chapter in the Gospels to fit the crowds he was addressing?

The idea that a given Pope could proclaim such-and-such to be Church law forever, precluding changes from future Popes seems to contradict the whole papal institution.

🤷
 
What people keep forgetting is a certain line in the Gospels which states, “Whatever you shall bind on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose in heaven is loosed on earth.” Last *I checked, its still there.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
I don’t like the pope and I am not afraid to say that. A lot of devout catholics who don’t like the pope would be FEARFUL to say that and they wouldn’t. Thats sad!
May God open your heart with Love for Holy Mother Church and the Vicar of Christ whom he has appointed by his holy will.
 
What people keep forgetting is a certain line in the Gospels which states, “Whatever you shall bind on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose in heaven is loosed on earth.” Last *I checked, its still there.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Which MOST folks perhaps mistakenly believe refers only to forgiveness of sins. 🙂
 
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