What if the Pope was wrong?

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Which MOST folks perhaps mistakenly believe refers only to forgiveness of sins. 🙂
I know. But forgiveness of sins comes from a different quote which says, **"Whose sins you forgive, they are forgive,. Whose sins you retain, they are retained. " ** Two different quotes for two different topics.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
I know. But forgiveness of sins comes from a different quote which says, **"Whose sins you forgive, they are forgive,. Whose sins you retain, they are retained. " ** Two different quotes for two different topics.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
But I wonder how many people actually pondered and realized this? 👍
 
What people keep forgetting is a certain line in the Gospels which states, “Whatever you shall bind on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose in heaven is loosed on earth.” Last *I checked, its still there.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
All law, especially ecclesiastical law, must serve the Truth and moral teaching of the Church. A command cannot be obeyed which would offend truth or right conduct, even if the law cited in the command is ecclesiastical. Saint Robert Bellarmine put it this way:

Although it clearly follows from the circumstances that the Pope can err at times and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not … it is said in the Acts of the Apostles. “One ought to obey God rather than man:” therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over (despiciendus). [as quoted in Turrencremata’s Summa de Eccles.]

source:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/infan.htm

and you might read this too, for further understanding:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/rock.htm
 
All law, especially ecclesiastical law, must serve the Truth and moral teaching of the Church. A command cannot be obeyed which would offend truth or right conduct, even if the law cited in the command is ecclesiastical. Saint Robert Bellarmine put it this way:

Although it clearly follows from the circumstances that the Pope can err at times and command things which must not be done, that we are not to be simply obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must not be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and in what not … it is said in the Acts of the Apostles. “One ought to obey God rather than man:” therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of natural or divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over (despiciendus). [as quoted in Turrencremata’s Summa de Eccles.]

source:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/infan.htm

and you might read this too, for further understanding:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/rock.htm
Pray tell, what did the pope do that was against scripture or Gods revealed truth.
 
You’re serious, right?

He embraces false ecumenism and modernism…I suggest you order this cd:
cfnews.org/modrpgk.htm

and here is the papal encyclical condemning the error of modernism:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm
The fact that Mr. Venari claims that Popes John Paul and Benedict XVI have embraced false ecumenism and a prepackaged modernism doesn’t make it so. Mr. Vernari has no more authority on the matter than the next scholar who writes the opposite.

The only authority that can challenge this is a Council of Bishops. This has not happened.

As to the encyclical by Pius X, no one has said that it is wrong. Pius X content is correct. The approach that a pope chooses to address these issues are proper to the pope in offic. Just as previous popes could not tell Pius X how to run the Church during his time, neither can Pius X do so today, nor would this holy man want to do such a thing.

Finally, St. Robert Bellarmine clearly says that a pope who errs do so when he makes pronouncements contrary to scripture, natural law, reason, moral law (if the law is still in effect), sacred tradition or dogma.

The content of Pius X encyclical and the pastoral plans of John Paul or Benedict XVI are not in conflict with any of the above.

Where is the problem with what these two popes have said or done in the area of ecumenism?

We need to be careful not to jump too eagerly on some writer’s train and dismiss the authoritative train of the Vicar of Christ.
JR 🙂
 
You’re serious, right?

He embraces false ecumenism and modernism…I suggest you order this cd:
cfnews.org/modrpgk.htm

and here is the papal encyclical condemning the error of modernism:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm
I think perhaps you may have forgotten the line in scripture which confers the power of loosing and binding on the Holy Father… They can do this on discipline you know. Not infallible teaching.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
The fact that Mr. Venari claims that Popes John Paul and Benedict XVI have embraced false ecumenism and a prepackaged modernism doesn’t make it so. Mr. Vernari has no more authority on the matter than the next scholar who writes the opposite.

The only authority that can challenge this is a Council of Bishops. This has not happened.

As to the encyclical by Pius X, no one has said that it is wrong. Pius X content is correct. The approach that a pope chooses to address these issues are proper to the pope in offic. Just as previous popes could not tell Pius X how to run the Church during his time, neither can Pius X do so today, nor would this holy man want to do such a thing.

Finally, St. Robert Bellarmine clearly says that a pope who errs do so when he makes pronouncements contrary to scripture, natural law, reason, moral law (if the law is still in effect), sacred tradition or dogma.

The content of Pius X encyclical and the pastoral plans of John Paul or Benedict XVI are not in conflict with any of the above.

Where is the problem with what these two popes have said or done in the area of ecumenism?

We need to be careful not to jump too eagerly on some writer’s train and dismiss the authoritative train of the Vicar of Christ.
JR 🙂
Yah, what he said… 👍

JR was more complete and thourough than my post, but the result is the same. The Pope has the authority to change or declare what they see fit. However, they do not bind future Popes, nor do they “correct” previous ones.
 
Where does the Church teach that the statement or commentary of a Pope is binding on any and all future Popes forever?
Where does the Church teach that an encyclical such as “Lamentabili Sane” may be trashed and ignored by later popes?

Here is a brief historical survey of Church teaching, 100 years before the Second Vatican Council:
traditionalcatholic.net/

Basically, when fully aware of the modernism and the progressive thinking that has entered and infected the church since Vatican II (and you cannot plead invincible ignorance here), you are willing to turn a blind eye to the truth, and to purposely elect to ignore or pretend that the past popes when they were teaching infallibly and with condemnations attached to the teaching, may be ignored. Why is that?
 
**I think perhaps you may have forgotten the line in scripture which confers the power of loosing and binding on the Holy Father… ** They can do this on discipline you know. Not infallible teaching.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
You love to bring up lines from scripture and apply them in the very narrowest sense. That is very misleading to many, and you should be aware of the misdirection that you are giving to others, that is a grave action on your part.

The Holy Father may loose and bind the truths of our faith as given to the Apostles by Our Lord. The pope cannot change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones. The popes infallibility can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). How can that which was not taught to the apostles, be loosed or bound by the pope? Error cannot be made truth.
 
Where does the Church teach that an encyclical such as “Lamentabili Sane” may be trashed and ignored by later popes?

Here is a brief historical survey of Church teaching, 100 years before the Second Vatican Council:
traditionalcatholic.net/

Basically, when fully aware of the modernism and the progressive thinking that has entered and infected the church since Vatican II (and you cannot plead invincible ignorance here), you are willing to turn a blind eye to the truth, and to purposely elect to ignore or pretend that the past popes when they were teaching infallibly and with condemnations attached to the teaching, may be ignored. Why is that?
Because, due to Apostolic Succession, the “truth” is what the HMC says it is…:cool:
 
You love to bring up lines from scripture and apply them in the very narrowest sense. That is very misleading to many, and you should be aware of the misdirection that you are giving to others, that is a grave action on your part.

The Holy Father may loose and bind the truths of our faith as given to the Apostles by Our Lord. The pope cannot change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones. The popes infallibility can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). How can that which was not taught to the apostles, be loosed or bound by the pope? Error cannot be made truth.
There were many things that were not taught to the Apostles. Where does it say that they knew about the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, transubstantiation, hypostatic union, homoousios, theotokos, mortal and venial sin, religious life, deacons, presbyters and the list goes on.

These were all taught by the Church and confirmed by Popes, some including Peter and other much later than Peter.

JR 🙂
 
Where does the Church teach that an encyclical such as “Lamentabili Sane” may be trashed and ignored by later popes?

Here is a brief historical survey of Church teaching, 100 years before the Second Vatican Council:
traditionalcatholic.net/

Basically, when fully aware of the modernism and the progressive thinking that has entered and infected the church since Vatican II (and you cannot plead invincible ignorance here), you are willing to turn a blind eye to the truth, and to purposely elect to ignore or pretend that the past popes when they were teaching infallibly and with condemnations attached to the teaching, may be ignored. Why is that?
First, not everything they said was infallible. Therefore, not binding on their successors.

Second, much of what they said has been worked into decrees and encyclicals by modern popes.

Third, no pope has ever trashed or discarded something said by a previous pope. They may have approached the same subject from a different perspective and have commented on it differently, because the perspective is different. They are really adding, not detracting.

JR 🙂
 
Because, due to Apostolic Succession, the “truth” is what the HMC says it is…:cool:
No, the “truth” is the very words of Our Lord, Jesus Christ taught to the Apostles. The pope can only confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change.
 
First, not everything they said was infallible. Therefore, not binding on their successors.

Second, much of what they said has been worked into decrees and encyclicals by modern popes.

Third, no pope has ever trashed or discarded something said by a previous pope. They may have approached the same subject from a different perspective and have commented on it differently, because the perspective is different. They are really adding, not detracting.

JR 🙂
That is very ambiguous…just like the modernists of Vatican II.

It is a consequence of the Church’s infallibility that the doctrine contained in any new teaching** must not contradict doctrine that had previously been taught “always and everywhere” in the Church**. If a new “teaching” does contradict what was taught before, then the new teaching is obviously not infallible. This is confirmed by the infallible proclamation of Vatican Council I on July 18, 1870:
Code:
**"For the Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of Faith [Tradition], and might faithfully set it forth."
**
and:

The Church and The Truth - The Church is the source of all truth. This is what Jesus Christ taught when He told His disciples: “When the Spirit of Truth has come, He will teach you all truth.” (Jn 16:13.). The Church does teach infallibly, as at the 20 Ecumenical Councils before Vatican II. At these Councils it was necessary to solemnly invoke the guidance of the Holy Ghost to ensure infallibility. As previously noted, the Holy Ghost was not solemnly invoked at Vatican II. Why then is it that some bishops at Vatican II claimed that the Church made errors before Vatican II, but now they refuse to admit that the Church could possibly make an error after Vatican II?

source, and worth reading:
geocities.com/catholic_profide/renew2.html
 
No, the “truth” is the very words of Our Lord, Jesus Christ taught to the Apostles. The pope can only confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change.
Then we would be limited only to the words that came from Jesus’ mouth, which would render “tradition” irrelevant.
 
Then we would be limited only to the words that came from Jesus’ mouth, which would render “tradition” irrelevant.
From our Catholic Catechism:

The deposit of faith which Jesus Christ entrusted to the Church is made up of two parts: Holy Scripture and Divine Tradition, this latter being composed of the truths passed down by word of mouth, and not written down till after the death of Christ’s Apostles and disciples, principally by the Fathers of the Church.

St. Paul bade the Thessalonians: “Hold the teachings that you have learned, whether by word or by letter of ours” (2 Thess. 2:15)

In a wide sense Tradition embraces the whole teaching of the Church, including the Bible, since it is only from the Church that we have the Bible. In a stricter sense Tradition includes only what was handed down orally from the Apostles.

Divine Tradition must be believed as firmly as the Bible because it also contains the word of God.
 
You love to bring up lines from scripture and apply them in the very narrowest sense. That is very misleading to many, and you should be aware of the misdirection that you are giving to others, that is a grave action on your part.

The Holy Father may loose and bind the truths of our faith as given to the Apostles by Our Lord. The pope cannot change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones. The popes infallibility can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8). How can that which was not taught to the apostles, be loosed or bound by the pope? Error cannot be made truth.
Don’t confuse discipline with dogma. Dogmatic truths do not change. Binding discipline, which is not dogma, can be changed by popes. If you do not believe in this, ask yourself a simple question. Do you now eat meat on Fridays? it use to be a mortal sin, but that has been loosed, as it was discipline, not dogma.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
From our Catholic Catechism:

The deposit of faith which Jesus Christ entrusted to the Church is made up of two parts: Holy Scripture and Divine Tradition, this latter being composed of the truths passed down by word of mouth, and not written down till after the death of Christ’s Apostles and disciples, principally by the Fathers of the Church.

St. Paul bade the Thessalonians: “Hold the teachings that you have learned, whether by word or by letter of ours” (2 Thess. 2:15)

In a wide sense Tradition embraces the whole teaching of the Church, including the Bible, since it is only from the Church that we have the Bible. In a stricter sense Tradition includes only what was handed down orally from the Apostles.

Divine Tradition must be believed as firmly as the Bible because it also contains the word of God.
If the successors of Peter cannot declare new dogmas, because they were not handed down by the Apostles, how do we explain dogmas that were declared centuries after the death of the Apostles, especially to those who are not Catholic?

I listed many on a previous post. Just in case you missed them:
  1. Hypostatic union - 5th century
  2. Homoousios - 5th century
  3. Theotokos - 2nd century
  4. Papal infallibility - 19th century
  5. Immaculate Conception -19th century
  6. Assumption of Mary - 20th century
  7. Purgatory - 2nd century
  8. Canonization of saints - Middle Ages
  9. Three orders of the priesthood - 1st century
  10. Indisolubility of Solemn Vows made by Exempt religious orders
  • Middle Ages
The Apostles never taught any of these.

JR 🙂
 
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