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Marc_Anthony
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In Thomism it is accepted that souls do experience Heaven (and Hell), but they do not experience them in their full capacity until after the Resurrection of the Body.
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davidv
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Without our bodies we are incomplete.
CCC said:
I would appear to me that being whole is essential to a effective relationship with God.
Our bodies are part of the “image of God” into which we were created.
CCC said:
CCC=Catechism of the Catholic Church
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phil16
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Thank you, and thanks for sharing the CCC references; it is always a refreshing reminder just what a rich source is the Catechism. David Perrin in *Studying Christian Spirituality *takes your point to heart in his chapter on Questions of Christian Anthropology. In it he addresses the nature of human beings created in the image of God (Imago Dei) and how that is reflected in “self” and “self knowledge” not as an autonomous independent being, but as a self and with knowledge in relation to other “selves,” the world, and God. He speaks of the self as the whole human being, an integrated whole and singular unity where healthy Christian spirituality avoids dualisms that oppose body and spirit but rather join then together as Jesus did where both humanity and divinity were in the same self. Thus for Perrin, the self does not spontaneously happen, but is the result of the movements of human freedom, beliefs, desires, and values that can evolve over a lifetime as life stories unfold and how God is present and alive in that life. We can thus see how self, personality, personal identity, and embodied experiences begin to merge into that “whole” entity willed by God that you and the CCC reference. Thanks!
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phil16
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Hi, Just to clarify, I am thinking you do not mean that we are resurrected literally in the same bodies, cell for cell. Clearly after death our earthly bodies are destroyed, the molecules and atoms go back into nature and I suppose potentially end up in someone else’s body eventually. So the “new” body is still our body, i.e. our personality, self knowledge, personal identity glorified and reunited with our soul. I would be interested in your perspective however on the idea of personal identity and its connection with the body (as opposed to the soul), i.e. to be truly “me” must my body be combined with my soul? Really appreciate the dialogue, thanks!!
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phil16
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Being a big fan of St. Thomas Aquinas myself, thank you for the Thomist hylemorphic dualism reference. An article posted by Dr. Feser is worth quoting at length here to further the point: “Hylemorphic dualism is the approach to the mind-body problem taken by Aquinas and the Thomist tradition more generally…As an Aristotelian, he is convinced that the human soul is the form of the living human body. It is therefore responsible for all the various human capacities – nutrition, reproduction, growth, sensation, appetite, locomotion, intellect, and volition – in just the way the souls of plants and non-human animals are responsible for their capacities. But Aquinas is also convinced that our purely intellectual capacities cannot have a corporeal organ. The reason is that he endorses philosophical arguments for the immateriality of the intellect of the sort that go back to Plato and Aristotle. That much gives him grounds for concluding that the soul carries out immaterial operations alongside its corporeal ones. Add to this the (independently motivated) Scholastic thesis that *agere sequitur esse *-- that “action follows being,” so that the way a thing acts reflects the manner in which it exists – and we have grounds for concluding that, though the soul is the form of the body, it must in some way have a kind of subsistent immaterial existence.”
We see that hylemorphic dualism puts a bullet in Christian materialism. The soul indeed does exist and, for Aquinas, is the form of the body. But does it exist apart from the body? Aquinas is quite clear about the answer to that question: the human soul carries out immaterial operations (i.e. intellectual ones) which operate apart from matter and therefore it could (and must) subsist apart from matter, agere sequitur esse. True, it would not subsist as a complete substance since (qua form) it is only part of a complete substance, e.g. apart from the body. But it would subsist as an incomplete substance, until rejoined with the glorified body post resurrection. Thanks again brother, I love St. Thomas Aquinas!
And thank you Dr. Feser: edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/08/vallicella-on-hylemorphic-dualism.html (for complete article)
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phil16
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Hi, It makes perfect sense, I think. I had not previously really thought too deeply about our being created in the image and likeness of God. (Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”) But when one adds the piece where God finishes the task by forming man from dust and giving him life by sharing His very breath (Genesis 2:7 “then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.”) we begin to see just how unique and special among all God’s creations we are, having both a material body and an immaterial soul/spirit. But this image/likeness of God must not refer in any way to our humanity (not many, if any, bible scholars would say this was a foreshadowing of Jesus coming as fully human, fully divine). It must in turn refer to that immaterial part of us, that divine spark, aka soul, when we are in right relationship with God, reflecting His being and image through us in order “to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.” (Ephesians 4:24) It is that “righteousness and holiness” that express in mere words what it means to be in the image of God. After all, we are, we exist because we are loved by God, the very essence of pure being itself, who willed us into existence. And it is through Christ we are made new creations in the likeness of God; " Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17) May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Thanks!
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phil16
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Hi, Thanks for the offer for references. I am not as familiar with the Beatific Vision you mention, unless it goes by some other name perhaps. Scripture or church father or CCC references would help. Thanks again!!
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Katholish
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Here is the section from the Catholic Encyclopedia for the Beatific Vision. It provides Scripture, Church Fathers, and Magisterial pronouncements.
newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm#III
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Qoeleth
Guest
The ‘soul’ is an ambiguous term. On the one level, it may refer to the psyche- the mind, which (obviously) we have. Given the experiences of unconsciousness, where the psyche seems, temporarily, to cease to exist, the immortality of the psyche is rather doubtful.
On the other hand it may refer to something other-than-psyche. If it refers to something other-than-psyche, which is immaterial and non-temporal, its immortality (and even existence) is an unanswerable question, since physical ‘existence’ and temporal duration are irrelevant categories. Perhaps also ‘identity’ is also an irrelevant category.
It is necessary to appreciate that any descriptions given to the life of the ‘soul’, especially its eternal life, a metaphors for a form of reality which remains beyond our knowledge.
On the other hand it may refer to something other-than-psyche. If it refers to something other-than-psyche, which is immaterial and non-temporal, its immortality (and even existence) is an unanswerable question, since physical ‘existence’ and temporal duration are irrelevant categories. Perhaps also ‘identity’ is also an irrelevant category.
It is necessary to appreciate that any descriptions given to the life of the ‘soul’, especially its eternal life, a metaphors for a form of reality which remains beyond our knowledge.
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phil16
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Hi, I would agree that “I don’t know” or “we can’t know” are fair and acceptable answers when trying to determine the nature of human personhood, especially in terms of body and soul and their interdependence. Augustine would certainly agree with you (Si comprehenderis, non est Deus, “If you understand, then it’s not God.”). But given that human nature He blessed (or cursed
) us with, we want to know; our curiosity driven by a longing for that deeper spiritual meaning and purpose in our lives pushes and pulls us ideally toward Him. What then do we make of that spark of divinity or immateriality (whatever makes us in His image), aka soul, that God would have implanted within our humanity that speaks to our attraction/longing for Him? The physicalists have certainly simplified things by just tossing out the existence of the soul all together. For them personal identity is the cumulative biological, emotional, social, experience of being. What then about the neo-nate on life support? The brain damaged? Infant and pediatric deaths? The aborted? Are they less of a person? Is their after-life less fulfilling or different somehow from those whose cumulative experience was “richer”? And how cruel would our God be to create purely physical beings that can contemplate their potential duality, (whatever it is in our being/humanity that conforms us to His image that is apart from our body) as creatures that long for Him, yet not let them fulfill/realize that longing or understand its source while being consciously aware of that longing? I think not.Your assessment does point to one other concern as well, at least for me. If by psyche and identity you are summing up personal identity and/or personality, and those cease to exist upon our death, what happens to “me,” i.e. that unique creation which is a combination of my body, soul, personality, memories, desires, psyche, identity? Will I know myself in heaven? Not trying to be flip and certainly, as you said, beyond our knowledge, but goes to the core of my very first post. I really appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Blessings!!
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phil16
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Connecting some of the comments, thoughts and feedback received so far on this topic, one would conclude that it is the Catholic belief that the saints (with a few exceptions perhaps, the Virgin Mary clearly being one), while currently in heaven are not enjoying the “full experience” because they are disembodied, awaiting final judgment before they are reunited with their glorified body. Apparently, we can experience Heaven (and God) without our bodies but not to the fullest. Catholics believe that the saints can intercede on our behalf through prayer and it would appear that they do not need their body to be effective in that capacity.
CCC 956 - “The intercession of the saints. Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.” (1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.”)
“Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.” (St. Dominic)
“I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.” (St. Thérèse of Lisieux )
So what might they (the saints) be missing not having their glorified body? Has “final judgment” already occurred at least for some (e.g. Mary)? We can stand behind the mystery and continue to quote St. Augustine (Si comprehenderis, non est Deus, “If you understand, then it’s not God.”), but part of the beauty of the human creation is the curiosity and longing to know Him that He planted in our soul. I would be interested in others thoughts and ideas on this letting me know if I have summarized the Catholic doctrine correctly or not and/or what I am missing. Blessings to all!
CCC = Cathechism of the Catholic Church
CCC 956 - “The intercession of the saints. Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.” (1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.”)
“Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.” (St. Dominic)
“I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.” (St. Thérèse of Lisieux )
So what might they (the saints) be missing not having their glorified body? Has “final judgment” already occurred at least for some (e.g. Mary)? We can stand behind the mystery and continue to quote St. Augustine (Si comprehenderis, non est Deus, “If you understand, then it’s not God.”), but part of the beauty of the human creation is the curiosity and longing to know Him that He planted in our soul. I would be interested in others thoughts and ideas on this letting me know if I have summarized the Catholic doctrine correctly or not and/or what I am missing. Blessings to all!
CCC = Cathechism of the Catholic Church
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dannybar45
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Jesus said, “Love the Lord thy God, with all your heart, your soul and your mind”. Certainly then, we do have a soul.
I am 66 years old. Every day I am aware that my body is aging. Yet every day I know and grow in my love for Jesus Christ. I have no complaints about my body aging as my soul grows in my love and His love.
I believe that the original question has been clearly answered by Christ. In fact, the whole of scripture tells us there is a soul. There are 145 references to the soul in the NIV translation of the Old and New Testament. I am very happy about what the Holy Spirit has done in my soul. Do I need a body in eternity? Maybe, but the only important question is, “can I get the 29 year old model”?
I am 66 years old. Every day I am aware that my body is aging. Yet every day I know and grow in my love for Jesus Christ. I have no complaints about my body aging as my soul grows in my love and His love.
I believe that the original question has been clearly answered by Christ. In fact, the whole of scripture tells us there is a soul. There are 145 references to the soul in the NIV translation of the Old and New Testament. I am very happy about what the Holy Spirit has done in my soul. Do I need a body in eternity? Maybe, but the only important question is, “can I get the 29 year old model”?
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CherylL83
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Amen to that, Dannybar!
We are fortunate that Our Lord’s Words are recorded on this subject!
We are fortunate that Our Lord’s Words are recorded on this subject!
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dannybar45
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Jesus said (before Pilate - on trial) "37Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
The Holy Spirit, through inspired authors, has revealed the truth we need to know. Scripture is the answer to life’s problems. Yes, our Lord’s words are recorded. We should study His words and the whole of scripture to be prepared throughout life. If we know the words of Christ and strive to live by His words, our soul will be presentable to Our Lord for judgement.
The Holy Spirit, through inspired authors, has revealed the truth we need to know. Scripture is the answer to life’s problems. Yes, our Lord’s words are recorded. We should study His words and the whole of scripture to be prepared throughout life. If we know the words of Christ and strive to live by His words, our soul will be presentable to Our Lord for judgement.
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tafan
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This is not correct. Man is both body and soul, united, but two distinct things. The soul is not a body and does not have a body. Resurection of the body does not unite the soul with a new body, but a perfected version of our existing body. And our body is not just a dwelling place for our soul.
This all sounds nice and sweet, but it is not sound thinking. I agree with a previous poster, it is heretical.
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greylorn
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Yes, obviously. However, Catholic theology, as best I have been able to understand it, is ambivalent on this question, as if it was playing both sides of the issue.
On one hand, Catholics and most Christians are told that they will be with God in heaven, and that God is a bodiless spirit being. Does it make sense to be traipsing around in a spirit world with mechanisms that need to eat, barf, pass gas, and defecate, and whose primary means of personal gratification involve undignified applications of interactive bodily mechanisms?
This would be like driving a pair of Abrams tanks to a elegant buffet table on the White House lawn, to practice maneuvers.
On the other hand, the Church assures us that the good people (a bizarre group to which no one belongs but to which everyone thinks he, she, or it belongs) will be resurrected back into physical bodies which will live happily on planet earth forever. (This belief was invented before scientists learn that stars go nova after a while, eating their nearby planets.) The belief does not discuss what all these people will do to keep themselves suitably amused during the several billion years before the sun goes nova. Will they eat? Sleep? Eliminate waste matter? Have intercourse with the same dull but righteous partner for a billion years without getting bored?
(Mark Twain’s short story, Captain Stormfields’ Trip to Heaven expands upon this interesting question, never seriously addressed by any religion that I know of.)
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dannybar45
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Matt 10 v 28
The Greek manuscripts are interpreted this way: “Be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the [future] life; but rather fear Him who can utterly destroy both Life and Body in Gehenna.”
“Be not afraid.” Jesus tells the disciples not to be afraid of those who can do them physical harm. Rather, God is the one who is mostly to be feared since he is the ultimate Judge. The trials and tribulations of this life are not worthy to be compared to the triumphs and joys of the future immortal life.
The phrase “…but rather fear Him” is referring to God, the Creator not only of this mortal life but the future eternal life.
Romans 2:7 says that we “seek for…immortality” which means we must not have it yet. But we look forward to that blessed Day of Christ’s return: Romans 8:24. We are eagerly waiting to become immortal souls [ref. eternal life] when we receive “redemption of our bodies” at the coming of Christ. This is our hope.
The Greek manuscripts are interpreted this way: “Be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the [future] life; but rather fear Him who can utterly destroy both Life and Body in Gehenna.”
“Be not afraid.” Jesus tells the disciples not to be afraid of those who can do them physical harm. Rather, God is the one who is mostly to be feared since he is the ultimate Judge. The trials and tribulations of this life are not worthy to be compared to the triumphs and joys of the future immortal life.
The phrase “…but rather fear Him” is referring to God, the Creator not only of this mortal life but the future eternal life.
Romans 2:7 says that we “seek for…immortality” which means we must not have it yet. But we look forward to that blessed Day of Christ’s return: Romans 8:24. We are eagerly waiting to become immortal souls [ref. eternal life] when we receive “redemption of our bodies” at the coming of Christ. This is our hope.
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sw85
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What exactly do you think a soul is, when the Church talks about it? It’s just the substantial unity – the body, reason, and will collectively.
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dannybar45
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at death, the unity of our body and soul separated.
CCC 1005 To rise with Christ, we must die with Christ: we must “be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 5:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
In that “departure” which is death the soul is separated from the body. It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the dead.
CCC 1016 By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.
CCC 1005 To rise with Christ, we must die with Christ: we must “be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 5:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
In that “departure” which is death the soul is separated from the body. It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the dead.
CCC 1016 By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.
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