What if Virgin Mary said No?

[Good_Fella]

Mary was privileged to have a role in this plan. I don’t think it’s accurate to say “No Mary, no Jesus,” because God can get it done without her.

But God willed not to get it done without her. God did not call Mary to collaborate with him in the redemption just because of the incarnation. The Divine Word could have become man by being formed out of clay as Adam had been. Jesus could just as well have wandered out of the desert and began preaching in Galilee at the ripe age of thirty-three right after materializng from heaven. Please see my article Blessed Are You Who Believed.

christianforums.com/blogs/u278345-e23380/

If Mary wasn’t a part of the plan, God would know that well enough ahead of time that He could include a different person in His plan and even make different prophecies if that were necessary. That’s because God gives us prophecies based on what will happen, not on what might happen.

But God’s foreknowledge does not preclude human free will. I can imagine an elderly lady accepting my seat on a crowded bus before offering it to her. My choosing her from among other elderly persons present makes no difference and is irrelevant.

I don’t think there’s anything to worry about. It’s over and done with. Plus, God’s in control and He gets it done… God is in charge of making it happen and He doesn’t fail. Mary had a privileged place within that plan, but she did not have the responsibility of making sure it was carried out. That’s all on God.

The redemption does begin solely on God’s gracious initiative. But it can be completed only by our response in faith and charity. God loves us and desires that we love him in return. By her faith and love, Mary made satisfaction to God for Eve’s disobedience on our behalf. Meanwhile each individual is morally responsible for his or her own salvation. Salvation is a gift God has offered the whole world in view of the merits of Christ, and since it is a gift, it can be either accepted or refused by us. In his justice, God is not obligated to save us, but in his mercy God desires that everyone accept his gracious offer of salvation. For this reason each human soul is endowed with prevenient grace.

If she wasn’t right for being part of God’s plan, the angel wouldn’t have gone to her in the first place. You could ask a similar question about Joseph- what would have happened if he’d quietly divorced Mary like he initially planned before another angel intervened? How would things be different if our Savior had been raised by a single mother? I don’t dwell on that, either, because Joseph had a rather indispensable role as well… God knew ahead of time that they would be the ones He’d use… Certain roles within God’s overarching plan are indispensable, and those roles must be filled by people that can get it done- either that, or God gives certain details ahead of time which must therefore happen… We’re certainly capable of imagining things that go well outside the lines- ie., what if Mary was killed while pregnant, what if Jesus was killed as a child in a freak accident, what if Jesus had succumbed to temptation and sinned, what if Jesus came with plans to die but no one wanted to kill him. We can imagine them, but they don’t/won’t/didn’t happen. It’s God’s plan and He’s in control. So I don’t worry about whether or not Jesus will sin, or not be born, or not get crucified and rise from the dead, or anything else I can imagine that would prevent Him from doing what He came to do. God’s plan is secure at all stages- before, during, and after any of its individual aspects are accomplished.

Meanwhile neither Mary, Joseph, nor Jesus were puppets on a string. God knew all along what would transpire through human free agency before he created the world. Thus he permitted the fall of Adam and Eve to happen for the sake of a greater good. In his wisdom and righteousness God is willing to allow us shape our own destinies notwithstanding his foreknowledge relative to human history. If this were not so, then no human being could be ultimately responsible for ending up in hell.

Praise God for being in control. And praise God for all the people He’s used to get it done- especially the ones that filled indispensable roles.

God desires everyone to be saved because of his love and mercy. A God who loves does not use people who have been created in his image just to satisfy his pleasure. God is omnipotent and at the helm, but his power does not negate his essential love for us and his righteousness. I believe if God knew that both Mary and Jesus would fail him, he would not have created the world. Let us not presume that God had to create the world or has to save us.

A garden bower in flower grew waiting for God’s hand.
Where no man ever trod,
This was the gate of God.
The first bower was red,
Her lips which welcome said;
The second bower was blue,
Her eyes that led God through;
The third bower was white,
Her soul in God’s sight;
Three bowers of love;
Now Christ from heaven above.

Lawrence Hausmann

PAX :heaven:

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

Are you saying Mary did not possess free will ? If she did not possess free will , how was her " choice " freely given ?

I’m not sure what you mean by , " humans do not have the power or authority to thwart God’s providential will…" . We all have the freedom ( authority ) to reject God , IOW , to sin . Could you please elaborate ? Thanks .

Maybe I should clarify my terms. When I say “God’s Providential Will” I’m speaking of the things that He is going to do no matter what. For example, when he promised a savior, there was nothing any human or dark power could do to stop a savior from coming. Just as now that the savior has come, there is nothing that anyone can do to stop the second coming of Jesus.

What you’re talking about is personal will of God for an individual’s life. He has a path laid out for us that leads to righteousness. It is here that our free will allows us to deviate from the will of God. We can choose to strike out on our own path. However my contention is that even if all humans defied the will of God, His plan would not be thwarted. Just in the same way that stones would cry out to worship Jesus if his followers had not during his triumphal entry.

I know we view Mary rather differently. But maybe we can agree that the who of Mary isn’t the defining factor. The specific soul that was able to say yes to one of the craziest burdens and blessings that humans have been asked to bare isn’t the important part. The important part is God’s love was able to inspire such obedience in a soul that He created in order to full fill His providential will.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

I know we view Mary rather differently. But maybe we can agree that the who of Mary isn’t the defining factor. The specific soul that was able to say yes to one of the craziest burdens and blessings that humans have been asked to bare isn’t the important part. The important part is God’s love was able to inspire such obedience in a soul that He created in order to full fill His providential will.

How do you separate “what” Mary did from “who” she is ? Are you saying Mary didn’t have a " choice " when Gabriel paid her a visit ? If she had no " choice " why would what she did have any significance ? And obedience is freely given , not compelled , is it not ?
Re: your " specific soul " comment , do you take the same view toward Peter , Paul and the Apostles ?
As a non-Catholic , how do you process the "Magnificat " ?

And just so we’re clear , when it comes to the Providential Will of God and man’s will , I’m on board with you . God’s gonna’ do what God wants to do , and no man/men will get in His way ( that was never my question or objection ) .

 

[Evan]

I figure it this way.

God, at creation, knew we would fall in Adam.

So he scanned all of man to find the one who was most perfect (Mary) and then, made her even more perfect by giving her the immaculate conception.

That is… she may have said ‘yes’ even without that conception, but with it, her nature was even more perfect in her desire to do God’s will.

Now he had the woman, he moved back in time to an ancestor who could hear his message (Abraham) and contacted him, and worked with his decendants (Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, John the Baptist, Anna, Joachim) and created a culture that could hear the plea of His Son to create a ‘Body of Christ’ of the poor wretches who remain here below.

Then, He sent the Son to do redeem man and offer salvation to all.

It’s just a big plan, and it’s tough to mess it up when God knows the future and the past and the present and is immanent in all times and places.

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

How do you separate “what” Mary did from “who” she is ? Are you saying Mary didn’t have a " choice " when Gabriel paid her a visit ? If she had no " choice " why would what she did have any significance ? And obedience is freely given , not compelled , is it not ?
Re: your " specific soul " comment , do you take the same view toward Peter , Paul and the Apostles ?
As a non-Catholic , how do you process the "Magnificat " ?

And just so we’re clear , when it comes to the Providential Will of God and man’s will , I’m on board with you . God’s gonna’ do what God wants to do , and no man/men will get in His way ( that was never my question or objection ) .

Free will is something I’d classify as a mystery since it’s hard to understand exactly how it fits within the confines of an omniscient and omnipotent God. What I was trying to say was that there was always going to be a Mary. If the Mary that resulted in our exact historical time line had said no, I believe there would have been another one that would have said yes. Her saying no would not have been able to stop the coming of Jesus.

 

[Good_Fella]

Free will is something I’d classify as a mystery since it’s hard to understand exactly how it fits within the confines of an omniscient and omnipotent God. What I was trying to say was that there was always going to be a Mary. If the Mary that resulted in our exact historical time line had said no, I believe there would have been another one that would have said yes. Her saying no would not have been able to stop the coming of Jesus.

But why did Jesus have to come? Obviously because God loves us and desires that we all be saved. However, if God loves us, then certainly he would prefer to be welcomed before coming into the world. So there was no coercion on God’s part when Mary pronounced her* fiat* at the Annunciation. Augustine believed that Mary had to conceive Jesus in her heart before conceiving him in her womb. Meanwhile God predestined Mary to be the mother of his Only-begotten Son by no merit of her own, as all the elect are predestined to grace, knowing that she would say Yes in faith working through love. There is no possibility that Mary could have said No since God always knew she would say Yes. If she did say No, then God cannot be omniscient - which ontologically is impossible.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[MorningSong51]

God would have said “Oh!..well er, I see…ok. Thanks anyways.” and then, puzzled, gone back to the drawing board

That comment really made my day.

What would have happened if Mary said No? - who can resist the will of God?

12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. 13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

 

[MorningSong51]

The important part is God’s love was able to inspire such obedience in a soul that He created in order to full fill His providential will.

Amen to the fact that God created such an obedience soul in Mary, that she would say yes in order to fulfill the promise of salvation. Just like Abraham, who had acted out of faith on God’s calling, obeyed and went, leaving everything behind and so it was added to his righteousness.

If however, Abraham didn’t respond to God’s will - who then would God have called to fulfill the promise awaiting the Israelites? So why then Abraham? 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

Understandable that the promise of salvation would have come to us through another means but for some reason God purpose and plan stood with the people he chose - meaning that his promise will not be deviated (“He who is coming will come and will not delay.), as scripture tells us - “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.”

 

[cooterhein]

But God willed not to get it done without her. God did not call Mary to collaborate with him in the redemption just because of the incarnation.

I read the blog post, and there were several things in there that I’ve been trying to point out myself. Primarily…

“Without any doubt God is the only necessary being that exists, who depends on nothing for his existence. God alone is unconstrained by necessity and depends on no creature of his to fulfill what he has decreed from all eternity. The Almighty could only have depended on Mary if he had not known what her decision would be that early morning in the month of Elul. However, our heavenly Father willed that a woman should peform a vital role in his plan of restoring humankind to friendship with him…”

It does go on to talk about Mary as the reason for and source of salvation and grace and so forth, and I can’t agree with all of it. It’s interesting to see how parts of it are phrased, though, even when I don’t entirely agree with it. You can tell where the Catholic has interacted with Protestant criticism of Marian dogma and adjusts accordingly.

But God’s foreknowledge does not preclude human free will.

Of course not. Allow me to re-summarize what I said.

When God says He has a plan and he’s going to get it done, we don’t have to worry that He will fail in this. Even if there are certain human roles that are essential to the process, it’s still God’s plan and He’s still unconstrained by necessity and dependent on no individual person. So there’s no need to worry- especially when it’s in the past and God has already gotten it done. Like He said He would.

Meanwhile each individual is morally responsible for his or her own salvation.

Each individual is morally responsible for the fact that they don’t deserve salvation…and this covers both the elect and the reprobate. I think I understand what you’re saying, though, even though I wouldn’t phrase it quite that way.

Salvation is a gift God has offered the whole world in view of the merits of Christ, and since it is a gift, it can be either accepted or refused by us. In his justice, God is not obligated to save us, but in his mercy God desires that everyone accept his gracious offer of salvation. For this reason each human soul is endowed with prevenient grace.

Broadly speaking, there are two ways of describing prevenient grace- the Calvinist/Reformed way, which is more in line with Augustinian/Thomistic thought, and the Arminian/Methodist/Wesleyan way, which is what you’ve described. The term is also used in the fifth chapter of the sixth session of the Council of Trent. But your description of it looks less like Trent (or Molina) and more like a Protestant from somewhere in the A/M/W group.

I actually had to double-check your profile to make sure you’re Catholic. Granted, the New Eve typology from earlier on is a dead giveaway, but based on your description of prevenient grace…Catholic would not have been my first guess.

Meanwhile neither Mary, Joseph, nor Jesus were puppets on a string.

No one is saying that. For future reference, no one is ever saying that.

God knew all along what would transpire through human free agency before he created the world. Thus he permitted the fall of Adam and Eve to happen for the sake of a greater good.

The “greater good” theory is one among several. It can be a good one, depending on how it’s developed. I think it’s best developed in concert with at least one other theory, though. IMO, it’s useful, maybe even essential, but not entirely sufficient for the task.

In his wisdom and righteousness God is willing to allow us shape our own destinies notwithstanding his foreknowledge relative to human history. If this were not so, then no human being could be ultimately responsible for ending up in hell.

I affirm that God is non-coercive, and I’m certainly not unique in affirming that everyone who goes to hell is personally responsible for the fact that they’re there.

A God who loves does not use people who have been created in his image just to satisfy his pleasure.

I don’t think any Christian who loves God would describe Him in ways that are selfish or evil…unless they presume to do so on behalf of another Christian with whom they disagree on certain points. It’s interesting that you bring up God’s pleasure, though. It reminds me of Revelation 4:11. It doesn’t exactly say “just to satisfy His pleasure,” but it’s similar enough to remind me of it.

God is omnipotent and at the helm, but his power does not negate his essential love for us and his righteousness.

I can’t say I was worried about that.

I believe if God knew that both Mary and Jesus would fail him, he would not have created the world.

Jesus is God, so He can’t exactly fail Himself…which means that possibility is off the table. So what if it was just Mary who wasn’t right for the job? Are you arguing that the assent had to come from Mary and no one else, and that God would have probably deemed all of creation not worth creating without her “yes”? Because I tend to think Mary was replaceable. Hypothetically. If that were absolutely necessary. She could have been replaced with another person- or, like you hinted at, with an entirely different means of bringing about the incarnation.

We should not presume that God needed to choose Mary for this role, any more than we should presume that God needed to choose us for salvation. I would venture to guess that Mary has enough humility to be among those who most readily concede this point.

 

[Good_Fella]

I read the blog post,…It does go on to talk about Mary as the reason for and source of salvation and grace and so forth, and I can’t agree with all of it…

If you think that I have proposed that Mary is “the reason for and source of salvation and grace”, you misunderstand what I wrote. I intend to say that Mary’s fiat is causative of our salvation in a secondary and dispositive way. Grace originates from God, but Mary became a physical channel of divine grace by bringing the Source of all grace into the world. The idea is biblical and is illustrated in Luke’s Infancy Narratives. John the Baptist leaped in his mother’s womb at the sound of Mary’s voice when Mary greeted Elizabeth.

Every man has received grace, ministering the same to one another: as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1 Peter 4, 10

Each individual is morally responsible for the fact that they don’t deserve salvation…and this covers both the elect and the reprobate.

Sounds like the reprobate is morally responsible by the fact he doesn’t deserve damnation. The initial grace of justification received at Baptism is an unmerited gift. But we can merit our heavenly reward by how we conduct our lives in cooperation with divine grace. The elect deserve to be in heaven because of their good works no less justly than the reprobates deserve to be in hell for their wicked deeds (cf. Mt 25:11-46).

Broadly speaking, there are two ways of describing prevenient grace- the Calvinist/Reformed way, which is more in line with Augustinian/Thomistic thought, and the Arminian/Methodist/Wesleyan way, which is what you’ve described.

In Catholic theology prevenient or preventive (operative) grace is that given by God to enlighten the mind and enable the will to desire the good and prefer good over evil. As sufficient grace, it is granted to all human beings, because God desires to save everyone. If not, then God’s commandments cannot apply to everyone and be communicated through the voice of conscience. So nobody in hell can charge God with being responsible for his or her being there after having resisted subsequent (cooperative) grace by doing what is evil and failing to repent of their evil deeds.

I affirm that God is non-coercive, and I’m certainly not unique in affirming that everyone who goes to hell is personally responsible for the fact that they’re there.

Still you make us out to be too passive in determining whether we shall be saved.

I don’t think any Christian who loves God would describe Him in ways that are selfish or evil… It’s interesting that you bring up God’s pleasure, though. It reminds me of Revelation 4:11. It doesn’t exactly say “just to satisfy His pleasure,” but it’s similar enough to remind me of it.

What pleases God is that he works in us and through us for his good purpose by our willingness to let him. Our relationship with God, in view of his plan for us, must be covenantal as was that for the Israelites.

“How often would I have gathered thy children as the bird doth her brood under her wings, and thou wouldest not.”
Luke 13, 34

Jesus is God, so He can’t exactly fail Himself…which means that possibility is off the table.

And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered: And being consummated (made perfect), he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation.
Hebrews 5, 8-9

While God, Jesus became the source of our salvation by being made perfect in his humanity through obedience to the Father’s will. Likewise, without Mary’s act of obedience in faith, the Incarnation would not have happened. It matters not whether God knew she would obey or if Jesus knew in his divinity that he would obey to the very end. Both Jesus and Mary possessed human free will which God honours as significant in determining our salvation.

Are you arguing that the assent had to come from Mary and no one else, and that God would have probably deemed all of creation not worth creating without her “yes”?

Mary wasn’t predestined to the grace of her calling by any foreseen merit of hers, just as we aren’t predestined to grace by any merit of ours. God could have had any other young lady in mind to be the mother of his Son before he created the world. But Mary did merit the actual blessing of the divine maternity by her faithful consent, and she had already found favour with God after she was born before the angel appeared to her because of her unique state of grace (Lk 1: 28, 30).

We should not presume that God needed to choose Mary for this role, any more than we should presume that God needed to choose us for salvation.

God didn’t have to choose Mary for her role, but that’s the way he wanted it. To quote Augustine on this matter: “There is a great mystery here.”

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Interesting thread. Mary said “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior…” God saved her at her conception. Gabriel calls her “Full of grace” which means she can’t take in any more grace.

Gabriel says “Ave” the only time in the Bible where a woman is saluted like a king or a governor. AVE (Kecharitomene in Greek) in Latin reverses to EVA = Latin for EVE (a magnificent word play in scripture) so as a Early Church Father said Mary “reverses the knot that Eve tied”; Mary is Gabriel’s superior; in paintings he kneels in front of her when he asks for her hand in marriage on behalf of the Holy Spirit. She is indeed the QUEEN!

The fall involved by a woman and loss by eating
The restoration of God’s favor involved a woman & our salvation is gained by eating
Mary brings her son to a town called Bethlehem, the “House of Bread”

NOT LIKELY MARY WOULD TURN DOWN GOD THE FATHER! She KNEW SCRIPTURE very well!
PS
see Tim Staples tape set on “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed.”
Dr. Scott Hahn’s book “Hail, Holy Queen”
Dr. Mark Miravalle’s Books (Franciscan Univ. of Stuebenbille, world acclaimed expert on Mary for more reading)

 

[Paxvobis]

I suppose Mary could have said no to God, but God knew from all time that Mary would say yes. He is omnipotent after all.

 

[ufamtobie]

Interesting thread. Mary said “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior…” God saved her at her conception. Gabriel calls her “Full of grace” which means she can’t take in any more grace.

Gabriel says “Ave” the only time in the Bible where a woman is saluted like a king or a governor. AVE (Kecharitomene in Greek) in Latin reverses to EVA = Latin for EVE (a magnificent word play in scripture) so as a Early Church Father said Mary “reverses the knot that Eve tied”; Mary is Gabriel’s superior; in paintings he kneels in front of her when he asks for her hand in marriage on behalf of the Holy Spirit. She is indeed the QUEEN!

The fall involved by a woman and loss by eating
The restoration of God’s favor involved a woman & our salvation is gained by eating
Mary brings her son to a town called Bethlehem, the “House of Bread”

NOT LIKELY MARY WOULD TURN DOWN GOD THE FATHER! She KNEW SCRIPTURE very well!
PS
see Tim Staples tape set on “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed.”
Dr. Scott Hahn’s book “Hail, Holy Queen”
Dr. Mark Miravalle’s Books (Franciscan Univ. of Stuebenbille, world acclaimed expert on Mary for more reading)

PepbandMom,

Beautiful:thumbsup: How Blessed we are by God to have the Grace to know that Virgin Mary, is indeed our Mother and that we should continue to call her “Blessed” daily if not hourly anything less than these is not enough.

I know some will be confused about this, thinking I am putting Virgin Mary above God, No I am Not! I am only doing what I should be doing and am loving to do and what the Holy Spirit tells all to do, and that is call Mary Blessed, I love my Mother, through the Grace of God that he Has given to me when I hear the name Virgin Mary, I too, leap for Joy, like John in Elizabeth Womb.

Thank for replying to this Thread.

Ufam Tobie