What If We Don’t Want More Children?

[Michael57]

I’m a happily married man with two beautiful kids. There’s something I’ve been personally wrestling with. I don’t have the desire whatsoever to have more kids. If we did decide to have more kids it will not be out of my own desire but purely out of obedience to God’s will (my heart will not be into it).

Is this a valid reason not to have more kids without sinning?

What is your spouse’s desire in the matter? Have you talked to her about this?

 

[TeresaMarie24]

Thanks everyone for your posts, a lot of insightful and informative posts indeed! You’ve made things clearer for me. I now realise my having no desire for more children reflects directly on my current relationship with my children. I thought things were “ok” between us but now that I’ve been reflecting on it the past few days has made believe I still have so much more work (especially in involvement with them) to do in order to build up a relationship with them and help them become saints.

It’s funny, I was brought up with lots of love by my own parents and I always thought I would do the same. Being married and especially having children has made me realise just how selfish and self-centered I really am. Dear Lord forgive my sin and may the Holy Spirit conform me more and more into the image of Jesus Christ!

Wow, very insightful and humble post, OP! I’m inspired by it… (I have one child from a marriage that was annulled, so I’m not sure if I’ll ever be married again to have more, but sometimes the thought scares me. I have to remember to trust God’s will, not my own.) I’ll be praying for you and yours

By the way, Meemai, I think what you may be doing is called the sin of presumption. You can read about it here: catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-sin-of-presumption and there are many other places online as well. There isn’t a loophole with God to allow you to do whatever you want - believe me, I’ve looked! At the end of the day, I’ve found it far better to submit to His will, though that’s not to say it isn’t still a struggle.

I’ll pray for you!

 

[Augustine3]

Wow, very insightful and humble post, OP! I’m inspired by it… (I have one child from a marriage that was annulled, so I’m not sure if I’ll ever be married again to have more, but sometimes the thought scares me. I have to remember to trust God’s will, not my own.) I’ll be praying for you and yours

By the way, Meemai, I think what you may be doing is called the sin of presumption. You can read about it here: catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-sin-of-presumption and there are many other places online as well. There isn’t a loophole with God to allow you to do whatever you want - believe me, I’ve looked! At the end of the day, I’ve found it far better to submit to His will, though that’s not to say it isn’t still a struggle.

I’ll pray for you!

I’ll pray for you too, God bless you and your child!

 

[Augustine3]

I thought this is exactly what the Church teaches - that you are fine as long as you are using NFP and would never have an abortion if you did get pregnant. Otherwise, the Church would say you HAVE to have sex during the fertile time, and they don’t say that. It’s impossible to use NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.”

I don’t understand how it can be a good idea to have children purely out of obligation. That’s not fair to the child.

I read on another thread in this forum that abstinence from sex is not a sin (even if you don’t want children). Having sex at an infertile time done on purpose in order to avoid having children without a just reason is a venial sin. Has anyone heard something similar to this? Gosh I think being married is the hardest vocation, it’s such a grey error with no absolute certainty.

 

[Augustine3]

What is your spouse’s desire in the matter? Have you talked to her about this?

My wife is open for another child in a year or two. Indicators like these didn’t quite hit me but personal reflection over the past week has made me realise how selfish I’ve been and how quick I was to deny her wish. Naturally I worry about financial security if God gave us another child but hey that would be a great time to surrender and put my trust in God.

 

[TeresaMarie24]

I’ll pray for you too, God bless you and your child!

Thank you! We both need all the prayer we can get!

 

[Et_Cetera]

If you don’t want more children, then don’t have more children. Keep things fair to the ones you have, give them a good life, don’t stretch yourselves too thin.

 

[Augustine3]

If you don’t want more children, then don’t have more children. Keep things fair to the ones you have, give them a good life, don’t stretch yourselves too thin.

Would I be committing a sin if I could have another child but didn’t go through with it merely because I just didn’t desire having another one? That doesn’t sound like a just reason in the eyes of the Church?

 

[thewanderer]

Thanks everyone for your posts, a lot of insightful and informative posts indeed! You’ve made things clearer for me. I now realise my having no desire for more children reflects directly on my current relationship with my children. I thought things were “ok” between us but now that I’ve been reflecting on it the past few days has made believe I still have so much more work (especially in involvement with them) to do in order to build up a relationship with them and help them become saints.

It’s funny, I was brought up with lots of love by my own parents and I always thought I would do the same. Being married and especially having children has made me realise just how selfish and self-centered I really am. Dear Lord forgive my sin and may the Holy Spirit conform me more and more into the image of Jesus Christ!

It sounds to me like your “just not wanting more kids” turns out to be much more than that, rather, your reason is more along the lines of wanting to fix your current relationship with your children before bringing more children into the picture which would only make it more difficult for you to develop a better relationship with your children. That honestly seems like a good reason to me. It is important for children to have healthy relationships with their parents. Avoiding potential children so that you are able to work on your faults that are causing problems for your actual children sounds like a perfectly legitimate and just reason to me.

I read on another thread in this forum that abstinence from sex is not a sin (even if you don’t want children). Having sex at an infertile time done on purpose in order to avoid having children without a just reason is a venial sin. Has anyone heard something similar to this? Gosh I think being married is the hardest vocation, it’s such a grey error with no absolute certainty.

I have heard some people suggest this, but from my reading of humanae vitae I strongly disagree with them. I am going to post a couple of posts from a previous discussion I had on here about this which tries to explain why I believe this way of thinking is erroneous. And I’m sorry if I sound rather forceful in them… sometimes when I get into a discussion I can get rather intense about it and I think that can scare people off, but if you warn me about it or tell me off for it I will be sure to calm it down. So feel free to ask for clarification or even challenge some part of what I am saying.

Obviously its not wrong for a couple not to have kids if they have a non-selfish reason not to. But if their reasons are selfish then that is wrong.

Look, here is what Humanae Vitae has to say about all this

[Section on Married Love]
Finally, this love is fecund. It is not confined wholly to the loving interchange of husband and wife; it also contrives to go beyond this to bring new life into being. “Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the procreation and education of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute in the highest degree to their parents’ welfare.” (8)

(cont…)

 

[thewanderer]

(…cont)

From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life

, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary,** they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator.** The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out. (10)

So they can’t just decide we hate kids and don’t want any because we are being selfish therefore we will abstain and avoid them. They have to discern whether or not it is Gods will to have kids. They don’t have to go out of their way to try and have kids (unless they discern that God does want them to have kids), but they can’t go out of their way to avoid them for selfish reasons, no matter what method they use to avoid them. This is because the part above from HV is talking about universals principles about marriage, not principles that only apply if you decide to use periodic abstinance. HV makes absolutely no sense if you try to claim that you can abstain entirely for the purpose of avoiding kids because of selfish reasons but you need to make sure your intentions are pure if you are going to abstain only periodically. (and yes, I realize thats not the specific claim you were making, but that way of thinking follows from the claim you made).

…
As for citing authoritative documents, I cited Humanae Vitae which laid out as universal principles about marriage that marriage is ordered towards children and that couples are not allowed to make decisions about whether or not to have children simply based on their own desires, but rather must make them based on God’s will for them. That all married couples must strive to follow responsible parenthood, which means they must base their decision about whether or not to have kids not simply on their own preferences but by looking at many factors, including the good of the human race. These are all given as universal principles. Which means they apply to marriages no matter what.

…
Basically, I take it as obvious that HV gives a universal principle that we must try to do God’s will rather than our own with respect to procreation (just as we must in every other are of our life). What necessarily follows from this universal principle is that there is similarly a universal principal that it is wrong for a couple to avoid doing God’s will with respect to procreation when they are aware of what his will is.

This brings us to a scenario where we have a couple who have discerned that God would like them to have another child, but for selfish reasons do not want to. They decide to avoid sex altogether to make sure they don’t have a child. Have they or have they not sinned in doing this? It is clear they broke the above principal of following God’s will with respect to procreation and so that would mean they have sinned. Would you agree with this conclusion WarriorMonk? If so than you must admit that it can be sinful to abstain from relations for the sake of avoiding children if your reasons are selfish/contrary to God’s will.

 

[Augustine3]

@ thewanderer

Thank you very much for your posts. There’s a lot of things to think about and reflect on in your posts. I’ve made the decision to be ALWAYS open for more kids, I just have to agree with my wife when would be a good time and whether we are up to the task in all respects (love, financial etc.) hopefully I will not look for every excuse under the sun not to have any more. I believe as long as I’m ALWAYS open for more kids God will be pleased with me. Gee the things we need to go through to become saints! Nevertheless I have to keep in mind St Paul’s words when I’m feeling overwhelmed with burden “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

thewanderer… I, too, agree with your disagreement with that train of thought based on what I have read regarding marriage and families… Also, a couple should not choose to abstain completely without a good enough reason since the martial act is good for marriage. I can’t remember where I read this but, for example, to enter into a Josephite Marriage (where the couple is able to consummate marriage but chooses not to do so), they need to have spiritual direction on the matter. Regarding becoming a better parent, I personally do not find that receiving more blessings is an impediment to this… if anything IMHO it can contribute to becoming a better parent. That is my personal experience, though, and that is why part of the beauty of NFP is the ability to take into consideration your unique situation as a couple/family, to honestly discern where you are at and what you feel God may want of you. It is good to form your conscience correctly (with actual Church documents etc) to be able to discern correctly.

 

[Rachel126]

I thought this is exactly what the Church teaches - that you are fine as long as you are using NFP and would never have an abortion if you did get pregnant. Otherwise, the Church would say you HAVE to have sex during the fertile time, and they don’t say that. It’s impossible to use NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.”

I don’t understand how it can be a good idea to have children purely out of obligation. That’s not fair to the child.

The Church does require that the married couple be open to having children (assuming that such is biologically possible). That’s why it is part of the wedding ceremony (asking the couple if they will accept kids as gifts from God). So, by my interpretation, that means using NFP from day one of the marriage and always avoiding pregnancy straight through to menopause, would be against Church teaching.
At the same time, the Church does not give us a minimum number of children to have. The Church calls us to responsible parenthood, and having more children than we can afford, for example, does not sound like responsible parenthood. We have different limits. Some couples are able to raise a large family and do a fantastic job of it, for others, this would be overwhelming financially and/or emotionally.

 

[thewanderer]

@ thewanderer

Thank you very much for your posts. There’s a lot of things to think about and reflect on in your posts. I’ve made the decision to be ALWAYS open for more kids, I just have to agree with my wife when would be a good time and whether we are up to the task in all respects (love, financial etc.) hopefully I will not look for every excuse under the sun not to have any more. I believe as long as I’m ALWAYS open for more kids God will be pleased with me. Gee the things we need to go through to become saints! Nevertheless I have to keep in mind St Paul’s words when I’m feeling overwhelmed with burden “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

I am glad you found them helpful.

thewanderer… I, too, agree with your disagreement with that train of thought based on what I have read regarding marriage and families… Also, a couple should not choose to abstain completely without a good enough reason since the martial act is good for marriage. I can’t remember where I read this but, for example, to enter into a Josephite Marriage (where the couple is able to consummate marriage but chooses not to do so), they need to have spiritual direction on the matter. Regarding becoming a better parent, I personally do not find that receiving more blessings is an impediment to this…** if anything IMHO it can contribute to becoming a better parent.** That is my personal experience, though, and that is why part of the beauty of NFP is the ability to take into consideration your unique situation as a couple/family, to honestly discern where you are at and what you feel God may want of you. It is good to form your conscience correctly (with actual Church documents etc) to be able to discern correctly.

I absolutely agree, I was just trying to say that if, for a particular person, having more children will make it more difficult for them to be a better parent when not having children would allow them to overcome their faults, that can certainly be a justifying reason for avoiding children. But you are right that that will not apply to every parent who sees faults in themselves.

 

[Michael57]

My wife is open for another child in a year or two. Indicators like these didn’t quite hit me but personal reflection over the past week has made me realise how selfish I’ve been and how quick I was to deny her wish. Naturally I worry about financial security if God gave us another child but hey that would be a great time to surrender and put my trust in God.

It sounds like you have your answer.

Your worries are natural, who doesn’t have concerns about their finances these days? But who can compare that to the joys of a new life in your family? And one raised in faith, to bless society?

God bless you and your entire family.

 

[Et_Cetera]

Would I be committing a sin if I could have another child but didn’t go through with it merely because I just didn’t desire having another one? That doesn’t sound like a just reason in the eyes of the Church?

I’m not really religious. My post was just what I think to be the actions of common sense. Don’t have kids that you don’t want. It’s not fair to them, and it’s not fair to create that tense atmosphere for the children you have.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Would I be committing a sin if I could have another child but didn’t go through with it merely because I just didn’t desire having another one? That doesn’t sound like a just reason in the eyes of the Church?

Hello Augustine. I cannot understand why this point is being belaboured by others here .

Given that you already have two children I think it needs to be presumed until proven otherwise that you have fulfilled the primary purpose of marriage procreation (part1) AND are currently fulfilling part2 (upbringing/education of children). It looks like you are being called to transition your energies into Part II of that primary end of marriage.

That obviously does not mean you have to give up on sex as NFP is perfectly acceptable as a long term option given your reasonable situation (and is in fact desirable for fulfilling the unitive purpose of mariage (and also as an ongoing “remedy for concupiscence”).

Good luck .

 

[gardenswithkids]

Hello Augustine. I cannot understand why this point is being belaboured by others here . .

Hello Blue, the op posed the question and indicated he’s not 100% sure that his decision is right. I’d hardly say that the point is being “belabored” when people engage in a conversation that he initiated.

Given that you already have two children I think it needs to be presumed until proven otherwise that you have fulfilled the primary purpose of marriage procreation (part1) AND are currently fulfilling part2 (upbringing/education of children). It looks like you are being called to transition your energies into Part II of that primary end of marriage.

Of course we should “presume until proven otherwise” that married couples are following Church teachings! That statement applies if they have 2, 1, zero or 12 children! The Church doesn’t tell us exactly how many children to have–however our culture around us seems to be rather fond of the number “2”. (Or 1 and even zero in some secular circles. Rarely 12.) We need to personally examine our own consciences, discuss with our spouses, and pray to discern God’s plan for our family. As individual Catholics however, we shouldn’t presume that we are following God’s plan when haven’t asked Him. Maybe we are, and maybe we aren’t. Let’s all gladly leave it to couples to prayerfully discern these matters, BUT if the couples aren’t prayerfully discerning the matter when using NFP then they should at least be informed that Church teachings requires prayerful discernment and 'just" reason for using NFP to avoid pregnancy. The Church hasn’t defined or provided us with a list of what is or is not a just reason, so it’s quit easy to presume that people have them and that they’ve discerned use of NFP when avoiding children. However, as individuals we need to consult with our spouses and God about our family size. And His answer might be two. Or twelve. Or something else.

 

[thewanderer]

Hello Augustine. I cannot understand why this point is being belaboured by others here .

Given that you already have two children** I think it needs to be presumed until proven otherwise that you have fulfilled the primary purpose of marriage procreation** (part1) AND are currently fulfilling part2 (upbringing/education of children). It looks like you are being called to transition your energies into Part II of that primary end of marriage.

That obviously does not mean you have to give up on sex as NFP is perfectly acceptable as a long term option given your reasonable situation (and is in fact desirable for fulfilling the unitive purpose of mariage (and also as an ongoing “remedy for concupiscence”).

Good luck .

I don’t understand why we should presume one way or another on this point. God calls different families to have all different sorts of family sizes. Some people are called to have huge families, others tiny ones. there is no set number at which you can start presuming you have fulfilled God’s will. Instead one should be reminded to seek out God’s will in the matter. They should understand Church teaching on the matter (which, by the way, does not claim that all families are supposed to have tons of kids), and then reminded to prayerfully discern for themselves what God wants of them. No presuming either direction.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Hello Blue, the op posed the question and indicated he’s not 100% sure that his decision is right. I’d hardly say that the point is being “belabored” when people engage in a conversation that he initiated.

Hello GWK.
I get it that a Catholic couple with no children and no intention to ever have children need to have a pretty serious reason for continuing on that way. Guilty until proven innocent.

But when a good Catholic guy already has 2 kids and he feels in his heart that he doesn’t want any more then (apart from making sure the wife is agreeable) I do not see anything more is required. Innocent until proven guilty in these light objective circumstances.

If Augustine’s wife is OK with it and his heart (also a perfectly good place where God’s will may manifest and be discerned) is set on putting his energies into better rearing the children he has (which is also fulfilling the procreative dimension of marriage - its not simply a numbers game) then the objective matter of this moral decision seems light not grave whichever way he decides togo.

All the best Augustine.