What if We Stopped Trying to Make Abortion Illegal?

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If you want men to step up, then women need to start having more respect for their bodies simple as that. Notice that there are strip clubs, magazines, video’s etc etc of woman giving themselves over willingly to debauchery. The central focus is the woman. The same thing that the devil did to cause the fall of man, is the same thing he is doing now to cause men to fall. If women took the lead and remained chaste until marriage, then I would guarantee that abortion would drop considerably. Then you probably no longer need them. If women don’t respect their own bodies, how could they expect men to respect them?
Whoa, Taylor2! :eek: Let’s not make one human being responsible for the actions of another! I would love to think that men were perfectly capable of making their own decisions about what “hobbies” they partcipate in, eh! I mean, hey, if I see a priest acting “unpriestly”, I’m most certainly not going to say to God, “Well, you tell your priest he needs to straighten up and then I’ll get my act together!” Let’s leave the blame where it belongs- on the person participating in the actions!👍
 
I feel the church should drop its stance on abortion, and focus all its efforts on the sanctity of marriage and a lasting and loving relationship.

I am going from memory so please forgive me if I have the numbers a little wrong. About forty percent of UK marriages end in divorce, the average length of a marriage is only eleven years, and children suffer.

What must it be like for a child to reach the age of eleven and witness your parents going their separate ways?

Eric
 
Actually, the current approach for deacdes has been poor catechesis, liberal ideas uncorrected, and moral relativism infiltrating the culture and worse. We should try doing what the Church actually teaches for a change. That includes help for those suffering and proper moral formation, enforcing canon law against pro abort Catholic pols, and more faithfulness from each of us.

It is not that pro life folks focus too much on one area, it is that the rest of use refuse to do more including being more obedient to Mother Church.

If Catholics start living like Catholics, including pols, we would start to change the culture. Yet, we vote these people in and they influence the law. That says we may not really believe what we claim. You can’t have a law that allows killing and then say that makes little difference in how people view reality.
Thank you, Fix, Kage, et al. The early posts on this thread were quite depressing.

I would add that legalized abortion represents a shredding of jurisprudence (i.e. its divorce from natural law) and of medicine (i.e. its divorce from the Hippocratic Oath). I would contend that the injury is nearly as great an evil as the killing itself, since it opens the door to every evil under the guise of law and science. And in fact we are witnessing the beginning of the results in euthanasia, stem cell research and genetic engineering.

What repairs the damage when those who recognize the value and need for morality in law and medicine abandon their responsibilities?
 
I feel the church should drop its stance on abortion, and focus all its efforts on the sanctity of marriage and a lasting and loving relationship.

I am going from memory so please forgive me if I have the numbers a little wrong. About forty percent of UK marriages end in divorce, the average length of a marriage is only eleven years, and children suffer.

What must it be like for a child to reach the age of eleven and witness your parents going their separate ways?

Eric
Are you contending the two stances by the Church are mutually exclusive??
 
I am firmly Pro-Life and believe in the stance of the Catholic Church that abortion kills, but I have felt for a long time that we are going about it the wrong way. Protesting, throwing around cliches like “murder” “pro-abortion” “pro-death” (nobody is pro abortion), spending all of our time effort and money on making it illegal are doing everyone a disservice (IMO).

What happens if we make it illegal? Will it save some lives? Sure. But just as many women will go over the borders or find back alley practitioners to obtain illegal abortions. It will not end the issue, it will simply sweep it under the rug. While we pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, babies will continue to die and we will see an increase in deaths from poorly performed abortions. I highly recommend seeing the movie “If These Walls Could Talk.” I would even go out on a limb to say that making abortion illegal without addressing the causes in the first place is borderline irresponsible.

What if instead of engaging in pointless debate that never changes minds (only makes people dig their heels in sooner) we instead devoted our time, energy, and resources into addressing the reasons why abortions exist to begin with. Wouldn’t it be amazing if abortions ended not because we passed a law but because they were no longer “needed?”

So what factors are these?

1.) A lack of respect for all forms of life. I teach special ed, and I know many sped teachers who feel that they cannot even post students’ work on the walls. While I understand and respect confidentiality, we have made it into a shameful thing to have a disability. Much of the prenatal testing centers around disabilities such as Down Syndrome. Instead of celebrating the unique gifts and diversity disabilities bring, we make it into a shameful thing that must be hidden, the modern equivalent of hiding the children away. I forget the statistic, but the vast majority of babies who test positive for Downs end up aborted.

2.) No societal expectations for men to step up. We simply do not expect men to invest in their child at all. The very most we ask is a financial commitment. So what happens to the woman who ends pregnant out of wedlock? For many it is the death of their dreams. How many women do you know ended up having to drop out or delay school because all of their energy was invested in raising the child with no support from the father while the man goes out to live his life, gets married, and suffers little to no consequences? We simply do not expect men to step up.

3.) Rape. Although we have come a long way, many men still view women as property. We are not teaching our sons that “no means no” and encourage the objectification of women.

4.) Attitudes towards premarital sex. 96% of people engage in premarital sex, judging from some other threads around here, that includes a good number of people on this site. If a man engages in premarital sex he is a stud. If a woman engages in premarital sex she is promiscuous. For the most part it is considered cool for a girl to be sexually active…until she ends up as pregnant. We need to start teaching our teens to respect their bodies, but even more so, to forgive. We need to start removing the stigma of being pregnant out of wedlock.

5.) Lack of resources for single parents. What if we took some of that time and energy devoted to lobbying and protests and opened church run day care centers at little or no cost so that women could continue to go to school? What if we greatly increased resources for single parents or low income families so that having a baby is not the financial kiss of death for the family?

6.) Changing the attitudes of the church. Frankly, the church falls short on this issue. Look at how many teachers have lost thier job because they were pregnant out of wedlock. Let’s face it, I bet a majority of the teachers are engaging in sex out of marriage, it doesn’t make it right, but let’s be realistic here. They just don’t end up pregnant so you don’t know about. So what happens when somebody does get pregnant? They are left with two options: get an abortion and pray nobody finds out (in which case you get to keep your job) or choose life and lose your only source of income. What is the more attractive option, especially for those who are not actually Catholic?

Now imagine if the church focuses on forgiveness. Acknowledging that what happened was a sin, but that thorugh repentance can come forgiveness. Focus on the fact that the woman made the difficult decision to choose life for her unborn child. Now what is the more attractive option to women? My senior year of college, the President of our Newman Center became pregnant out of wedlock. She carried the child to term and offered the baby up for adoption to a very nice Catholic couple. Instead of being shunned and kicked off the council and igniting scandal, we accepted that she made a mistake, congratulated her for choosing life, supported her, and allowed her to keep her position. There was next to nothing said about the circumstances. We knew it was wrong, she knew it was wrong, the deed was done, no reason to harp on it.

It just seems to me our current approach is not working. What was that quote by Einstein? Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. Instead of fighting a battle that in the end will not result in the desired outcome we switched tactics and started doing what we can to make abortion unnecessary to begin with?
You make good points here, but there really is no argument that there have always been abortions and there will always be abortions.

The difficulty with the abortion issue is the fact that the government, who’s job it is to protect its citizens, is funding abortions. Abortions should be illegal for the same reason that crack cocaine is illegal, because it is bad for society.
 
“Pro-abortion” and “Pro-choice” are not the same thing! It’s alright; I have to clear this up for people on a regular basis! As an active participant at Feministing, I find your remark to be a wee bit critical, but I won’t take it personal! 😉 I personally don’t know any feminist who think abortions are fantastic. In fact, there is a predominate understanding that abortions hinder all people, not just woman. However, many feminist also believe that in search for social, economical, political, and cultural equality, we all should have leeway to make decisions about our own lives, which in the Christian sphere, we like to call “free-will”! We all make bad decisions; Adam and Eve started a huge trend! However, we all will be judged accordingly by a power much greater than us.
I just wanted to clear up there is no such thing as pro choice. People are either pro abortion or pro life. The term pro choice is a device used to provide cover for pro abortion positions.
 
“Pro-abortion” and “Pro-choice” are not the same thing! It’s alright; I have to clear this up for people on a regular basis! As an active participant at Feministing, I find your remark to be a wee bit critical, but I won’t take it personal! 😉 I personally don’t know any feminist who think abortions are fantastic. In fact, there is a predominate understanding that abortions hinder all people, not just woman.
There’s a predominate understanding that the glass ceiling hinders women. So to correct that, we make gender discrimination illegal.

There’s a predominate understanding that abortion hinders women. So we keep it legal???

Ok, that makes no sense whatsoever…
 
I agree with the OP that issues like abortion need to be targeted at their roots, other than just the law. But the law represents the will of the people, and in this case its the institutional deprivation of the most basic of civil rights to the most innocent and vulnerable citizens.

Institutional racial discrimination was eliminated, but even though private racism was and is still around today, that didn’t stop us from making it illegal publicly.

I’ll copy from a letter to the editor that I read in my newspaper: “While it is true that we should reduce the demand for abortion, this approach in isolation is like saying we should have reduced the demand for slaves, child labor and segregated schools to end assaults on civil liberties. Civil liberties are not achieved when laws exist to enable the devaluation of a class.”
 
I agree with the OP that issues like abortion need to be targeted at their roots, other than just the law. But the law represents the will of the people, and in this case its the institutional deprivation of the most basic of civil rights to the most innocent and vulnerable citizens.

Institutional racial discrimination was eliminated, but even though private racism was and is still around today, that didn’t stop us from making it illegal publicly.

I’ll copy from a letter to the editor that I read in my newspaper: “While it is true that we should reduce the demand for abortion, this approach in isolation is like saying we should have reduced the demand for slaves, child labor and segregated schools to end assaults on civil liberties. Civil liberties are not achieved when laws exist to enable the devaluation of a class.”
Great point well said.
 
I am firmly Pro-Life and believe in the stance of the Catholic Church that abortion kills, but I have felt for a long time that we are going about it the wrong way. Protesting, throwing around cliches like “murder” “pro-abortion” “pro-death” (nobody is pro abortion), spending all of our time effort and money on making it illegal are doing everyone a disservice (IMO).
Is this what you do? Throw around cliches, but don’t mean what you say?
What happens if we make it illegal?
Then the law of the land makes it a criminal act to kill someone.
Will it save some lives? Sure.
Sure.
But just as many women will go over the borders or find back alley practitioners to obtain illegal abortions.
Nonsense. Back alley, coat hanger abortions are a myth propagated by the abortion industry. The logistics of “just as many women” arranging to have an illegal abortion in Mexico do not favor your argument.
It will not end the issue, it will simply sweep it under the rug.
No, it will make it a criminal violation to murder someone.
While we pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, babies will continue to die and we will see an increase in deaths from poorly performed abortions. I highly recommend seeing the movie “If These Walls Could Talk.” I would even go out on a limb to say that making abortion illegal without addressing the causes in the first place is borderline irresponsible.
Irresponsible in what way? If a baby’s life is saved because it is against the law to kill him, is that what is irresponsible?
What if instead of engaging in pointless debate that never changes minds (only makes people dig their heels in sooner) we instead devoted our time, energy, and resources into addressing the reasons why abortions exist to begin with.
We already do that. I would recommend joining your local right to life group and start helping out, instead of worrying that, heaven forbid, abortion might become illegal.
Wouldn’t it be amazing if abortions ended not because we passed a law but because they were no longer “needed?”
No, it would be much more amazing if abortion ended because life was respected to the degree that all people, not just you or me, have the constitutional protection of life and liberty guaranteed by our government.
 
I could not disagree more with most of your statements.you have so little respect for others who take a stand …abortion is the killing of a developing baby…a human being no matter how you word it…also has a former educator I worked with special ed students and found them to be much more worthy then people who want to legalize the killing. Rape is an old excuse…in other words…you believe that two wrongs make a right…how charming for a teacher to have such views. tell me teacher,of the 50 million developing babies murdered for just reason as you state…how many would have been doctors who saved lives,or maybe a scientist who found the cure for aids…(I wrote that in to please you) or a statesman who stopped wars instead of starting them…or a botanist who learned how to feed the world…etc etc…your argument is like those who want to legalize the loco weed…oh golly Iets legalize pot so that we can save money and do away with this anti-drug campaign…when something is legal…to the young it means it is ok…using your arguments lets make child porn…the rape and sodomy of little children by adults…lets make that legal as the aclu wants to do…FDR was responsible for two major issues…he repealed anti-booze laws and recognized communist Russia…both have proven to be disasters for the free world…Abortion is the third holocaust of the last century…first was the Armenians (2million) by the turks,then the 6 million Jews by the left wing socialists of germany and now Abortion…50 million…lets add drunken driving and and soon ‘pot’ smoking and one would be a fool to leave the house at all…have a nice day…
 
In response to the OP,

“Pro-choice” = pro-abortion. They are one and the same.
Rape and incest account for less than 1% of all abortions.
Making abortion illegal would not be “throwing it under the rug”. Abortion is a LEGAL multi-billion dollar industry that kills over 1,000,000 babies per year. Therefore, making it illegal would shut down the entire industry and Planned Parenthood would cease to exist. Sure, there might still be a handful of “back-alley” abortions, but most women are smarter than that.
 
The logic escapes me.

For all of the same reasons provided here in this thread, would we allow murder of born persons to be legal?

We’ve not been able to stop murder. It still happens way to frequently. Some parents murder their born children for similar reasons as mothers of their unborn children; because of the burden being a parent. Who has really solved the underlying problems that cause people to murder others? Since we can’t seem to solve the problems that cause murderers to do what they do, shouldn’t we just make it legal, and let everyone off of death row?

Dan Grelinger
 
I could not disagree more with most of your statements.you have so little respect for others who take a stand …abortion is the killing of a developing baby…a human being no matter how you word it…also has a former educator I worked with special ed students and found them to be much more worthy then people who want to legalize the killing. Rape is an old excuse…in other words…you believe that two wrongs make a right…how charming for a teacher to have such views. tell me teacher,of the 50 million developing babies murdered for just reason as you state…how many would have been doctors who saved lives,or maybe a scientist who found the cure for aids…(I wrote that in to please you) or a statesman who stopped wars instead of starting them…or a botanist who learned how to feed the world…etc etc…your argument is like those who want to legalize the loco weed…oh golly Iets legalize pot so that we can save money and do away with this anti-drug campaign…when something is legal…to the young it means it is ok…using your arguments lets make child porn…the rape and sodomy of little children by adults…lets make that legal as the aclu wants to do…FDR was responsible for two major issues…he repealed anti-booze laws and recognized communist Russia…both have proven to be disasters for the free world…Abortion is the third holocaust of the last century…first was the Armenians (2million) by the turks,then the 6 million Jews by the left wing socialists of germany and now Abortion…50 million…lets add drunken driving and and soon ‘pot’ smoking and one would be a fool to leave the house at all…have a nice day…
Let’s save up billions of dollars (maybe we could borrow from our defense budget) and put millions of people to work (economic stimulus) building jails and prisons and detention centers for the millions and millions of women who will be committing a crime if and when Roe is overturned. We will also need to build more golf courses, lounges and Hooters for the men who walk away scott free from the abortions they have had a hand in necessitating (as their “beloveds” see it), because they will certainly need places to drown their sorrows or work off the unbearable stress brought on by these abortions. There’s no time to waste! The armchair critics of legal abortion are considering becoming pro-active!!

I think it would also be a good thing if we could teach “educators” to spell and punctuate properly or refuse to reward them with the degrees they think they have earned.

Limerick
 
Therefore, making it illegal would shut down the entire industry and Planned Parenthood would cease to exist.
Banning abortion won’t make everyone suddenly follow Holy Mother Church’s teachings on birth control, nor will it cure sexually transmitted diseases.

 
**Let’s save up billions of dollars (maybe we could borrow from our defense budget) and put millions of people to work (economic stimulus) building jails and prisons and detention centers for the millions and millions of women who will be committing a crime if and when Roe is overturned. **** **
Did anyone here say that women should be sent to jail???

Doctors, nurses, medical people would lose the medical license and substantial fines for aborting or assisting in an abortion. Should they then practice medicine without a license, they would face those legal penalties.

Any person who coerced a woman to have an abortion should face fines and manditory counseling.

Women would need counseling, not jail.
 
Did anyone here say that women should be sent to jail???

Doctors, nurses, medical people would lose the medical license and substantial fines for aborting or assisting in an abortion. Should they then practice medicine without a license, they would face those legal penalties.

Any person who coerced a woman to have an abortion should face fines and manditory counseling.

Women would need counseling, not jail.
**Oh, great. So women who have to beg, borrow, steal or prostitute themselves to get the money for abortions will instead have to do the same to pay their counseling fees for moral turpitude. Is there a cure for that? Or can they only arrest it?

Plenty of people on CAF have endorsed the idea of making abortion criminal and, of course, how is an “abortion criminal” supposed to be rehabbed if not by a stay in the slam - scared all the way back to virginity, as it were? If no jail time is given, then counseling, you say? Would health insurance pay for this? Would it be a private sector enterprise? I foresee lots and lots of spanking new outpatient centers springing up. Again, more construction, more jobs - a fab stimulus package indeed. Do you really see counseling as a “deterrent”?

Truly, who will pay for all of this ideali$m???

Limerick**
 
What sources do you have that women in the USA beg, borrow, steal and prostitute themselves to pay for abortions? Would you please post some statistics and studies that support your claim?

Again, contrary to what the youth of today are told, prior to 1973 there were very few abortions. Sure, there will always be a criminal element that will assist people in breaking the law.

I could drive downtown and buy me a big ole bag of dope this evening, someone WOULD sell it to me. Heck, it is even morally neutral - I don’t do it because it is illegal.
 
What sources do you have that women in the USA beg, borrow, steal and prostitute themselves to pay for abortions? Would you please post some statistics and studies that support your claim?

Again, contrary to what the youth of today are told, prior to 1973 there were very few abortions. Sure, there will always be a criminal element that will assist people in breaking the law.

I could drive downtown and buy me a big ole bag of dope this evening, someone WOULD sell it to me. Heck, it is even morally neutral - I don’t do it because it is illegal.
**Why so interested in statistics and studies on this point? I am the statistic. I am the study. I’m one of many women who have had to resort to creative tactics to pay for an abortion. In my book, personal experience trumps some highbrow compendium that you require to substantiate my view.

And your reference to buying dope downtown - what has that to do with this topic? What do you mean this is morally neutral? Because it’s illegal, it would be morally perverse as well, would it not?

Limerick **
 
Why so interested in statistics and studies on this point? I am the statistic. I am the study. I’m one of many women who have had to resort to creative tactics to pay for an abortion. In my book, personal experience trumps some highbrow compendium that you require to substantiate my view.
It is very sad that you had such a tragic experience.

You implied earlier that this was a situation that many women find themselves in. I see now that is not what you meant.

Because of the prevalant culture, women are able to obtain free abortions when they do not have insurance, you are certainly aware of that.
**And your reference to buying dope downtown - what has that to do with this topic? **
The fact that laws keep me and millions of other people from doing it. Our soceity uses laws to impact behaviour.
What do you mean this is morally neutral? Because it’s illegal, it would be morally perverse as well, would it not
Things like pot or alcohol or tobacco are morally neutral. One can use them to commit the sin of gluttony, but, just like food, they can also be used in moderation. Morally neutral.

Abortion is not morally neutral, all the MORE reason it should be illegal.

Making it illegal will not end all abortions, just like making drugs illegal does not stop all drug use. It will certainly keep most law abiding people from giving or getting abortions.
 
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