What if We Stopped Trying to Make Abortion Illegal?

[HappyRevert]

I think it should be pointed out that it is estimated that less than one tenth of one percent of U.S. abortions happen after 24 weeks. (i.e. in the “third trimester”).

Have you crunched the numbers? Even if only .001 of abortions are after 24 weeks (at a point which morally no one could validly argue it is not murder because the baby could be delivered and have a good chance at survival) time 50,000,000 (estimated number of abortions since 1973) still gives you 50,000 murders!!! That its a pretty horrific bloodbath right there.

 

[HappyRevert]

Banning abortion won’t make everyone suddenly follow Holy Mother Church’s teachings on birth control, nor will it cure sexually transmitted diseases.

But it will certainly cut down on the number of unborn babies being killed (using the statistics from before abortion was legal to after it became legal to support that assertion).

Also, it is widely ignored that the developed country where abortion is banned (Ireland) has the lowest maternal mortality rate, thus disproving that having abortions somehow protects the mother’s health.

 

[DavidHume]

Have you crunched the numbers? Even if only .001 of abortions are after 24 weeks (at a point which morally no one could validly argue it is not murder because the baby could be delivered and have a good chance at survival)

Many abortions that late are performed because it is thought that the baby will not survive anyway.

still gives you 50,000 murders!!! That its a pretty horrific bloodbath right there.

Assuming they are actually “elective,” under most state’s laws, they’re most likely considered criminal already.

 

[DavidHume]

Also, it is widely ignored that the developed country where abortion is banned (Ireland) has the lowest maternal mortality rate, thus disproving that having abortions somehow protects the mother’s health.

That’s likely “ignored” because Austria, Spain, Sweden, Italy, and Portugal all have maternal death rates as low or lower than Ireland’s

 

[r4j]

On the ‘men’ piece, I will say this (being one of them). I think something happened along the way at some point. Maybe it was the 50s or 60s. But the last 2+ years I have been doing a lot of self examination after living my cursillo weekend and I have come to realize that as a married man of 18+ years with 3 children, I had not grown up, I had not stepped up as a father or a husband, I did not know what love really is. And I look back at my father, who is 79, and the men of his generation, not that everything was perfect, but something’s different. I look at my friends - they’re not mature, they’re not nice in some ways. Something got lost. My father didn’t have the time or maybe he wasn’t taught to spend time with his sons to teach them how to be a man. I used to watch old movies when I was young and used to watch the men in those movies and how they treated women and my mom did teach me manners, morals, principles. But only recently did I come to realize what a man is, what he does and I’m trying to teach my son but I’m lacking in many areas as I learn when talking to men friends I made as a result of re-committing myself to God.
Something got lost, I believe. I think our fathers somehow knew how to be men and we didn’t pick up on that - at least some of us - like me.

 

[The_Proselyte]

There’s a predominate understanding that the glass ceiling hinders women. So to correct that, we make gender discrimination illegal.

There’s a predominate understanding that abortion hinders women. So we keep it legal???

Ok, that makes no sense whatsoever…

I don’t recall advocating to keep abortion legal. Please don’t add words to my post! Thanks!

 

[The_Proselyte]

I just wanted to clear up there is no such thing as pro choice. People are either pro abortion or pro life. The term pro choice is a device used to provide cover for pro abortion positions.

fix, I do believe there is a word in the English language referred to as “choice”; you know, the act of choosing. I’m quite sure you do it daily; choose among a plethra of decisions whether they be good or bad. Or is the term “choice” also a device used to provide a cover for all of our sins?

 

[limerick]

On the ‘men’ piece, I will say this (being one of them). I think something happened along the way at some point. Maybe it was the 50s or 60s. But the last 2+ years I have been doing a lot of self examination after living my cursillo weekend and I have come to realize that as a married man of 18+ years with 3 children, I had not grown up, I had not stepped up as a father or a husband, I did not know what love really is. And I look back at my father, who is 79, and the men of his generation, not that everything was perfect, but something’s different. I look at my friends - they’re not mature, they’re not nice in some ways. Something got lost. My father didn’t have the time or maybe he wasn’t taught to spend time with his sons to teach them how to be a man. I used to watch old movies when I was young and used to watch the men in those movies and how they treated women and my mom did teach me manners, morals, principles. But only recently did I come to realize what a man is, what he does and I’m trying to teach my son but I’m lacking in many areas as I learn when talking to men friends I made as a result of re-committing myself to God.
Something got lost, I believe. I think our fathers somehow knew how to be men and we didn’t pick up on that - at least some of us - like me.

**
This is a beautiful and compelling post. You illustrate that it is possible to experience an epiphany of sorts with regard our shortcomings and the need to address them.

I believe that the generations gain insight as well as lose integrity from one to the next. This is the evolution of man (and woman), for better and** for worse. My father was too young to serve in WW I but too old to serve in WW II, and so he had to find a way to be comparatively useful and productive during those years. He was a strong, buttoned down, morally upright Roman Catholic who had the misfortune of having also been born an alcoholic, so he lived his life in constant conflict. In our quest for autonomy, and to do anything to not be like him, three of his four children became individuals who lived quite outside the law. We never learned how to communicate with others, we were passive/aggressive tending toward bursts of rage-induced violent behavior. Marriages ended in divorce, bitterness ensued, isolation became a way of life for these three. We never recognized a healthy marriage or, if we came across one and it confused us, we mocked it.

I say this as a woman who admired and feared her father but never came to understand what a loving relationship looks or feels like. It’s no one’s fault; this life is colored by the luck of the draw. My father has been gone nearly 25 years, and I’m only now beginning to know him, to respect him, even to miss him. He was a man of tremendous faith, insight, intelligence and sorrow. Who knew?

It’s never too late to change. It’s only too late if it doesn’t get done. I was taught to take a monumental task and break it down into manageable pieces so as not be overwhelmed by the magnitude of the undertaking. I congratulate you on finding these truths about yourself, and I wish you well on your journey toward a better you. It will be an uphill trek, but not all the way.

Limerick

 

[fix]

fix, I do believe there is a word in the English language referred to as “choice”; you know, the act of choosing. I’m quite sure you do it daily; choose among a plethra of decisions whether they be good or bad. Or is the term “choice” also a device used to provide a cover for all of our sins?

Are you pro choice on rape, pedophilia, arson, genocide?

 

[budgie2]

My senior year of college, the President of our Newman Center became pregnant out of wedlock. She carried the child to term and offered the baby up for adoption to a very nice Catholic couple. Instead of being shunned and kicked off the council and igniting scandal, we accepted that she made a mistake, congratulated her for choosing life, supported her, and allowed her to keep her position. There was next to nothing said about the circumstances. We knew it was wrong, she knew it was wrong, the deed was done, no reason to harp on it.

I can honestly say I’ve not seen such a thing done in Britain so I do not know the attitude towards pregnancy outside of wedlock in your part of the world. I disagree with you that we should stop campaigning to make abortion illegal. Making abortion legal makes it easier and therefore increases abortion rate. It also increases the number of people morally responsible for abortion and means that we as taxpayers pay for it here in Britain. Some people do not have religious belief but may try to live according to the law of the government which is their only moral standard. If abortion is legal and they do not get punished by the criminal justice system it will seem acceptable to them and there is social respect for abortion. It also means you don’t get a criminal record for performing or having an abortion and can work anywhere as far as I know so we have women working in all areas of health care and education who have had abortions. One of my friends who had an abortion works in Children’s Intensive Care for a hospital and of course her abortion was performed by the same hospital. It also means that midwives who are caring for pregnant mothers are implicated in abortions, referring them or could have performed them. Even though you are pro-life the legalisation of abortion affects you. I’m very afraid of giving birth at my local hospital as they also perform abortions and I do not know if the midwives that are dealing with me have helped others to have abortions. If it was backstreet then there would probably be a clear distinction between midwives and backstreet abortionists.

If you do not feel called to campaign against legalisation then sure try to help in another way. Sometimes it seems that campaigning doesn’t get very far but we are called to be witnesses. At least we have spoken out. Over here in Britain there are two organisations, one that is a political lobby called SPUC and one that deals with counselling women that have had abortions and providing hospices for pregnant women. I’m a member of the latter so you could go into that line if this appeals to you more.

 

[limerick]

EeyoresButerfly;5230814:

My senior year of college, the President of our Newman Center became pregnant out of wedlock. She carried the child to term and offered the baby up for adoption to a very nice Catholic couple. Instead of being shunned and kicked off the council and igniting scandal, we accepted that she made a mistake, congratulated her for choosing life, supported her, and allowed her to keep her position. There was next to nothing said about the circumstances. We knew it was wrong, she knew it was wrong, the deed was done, no reason to harp on it.

I can honestly say I’ve not seen such a thing done in Britain so I do not know the attitude towards pregnancy outside of wedlock in your part of the world. I disagree with you that we should stop campaigning to make abortion illegal. Making abortion legal makes it easier and therefore increases abortion rate. It also increases the number of people morally responsible for abortion and means that we as taxpayers pay for it here in Britain. Some people do not have religious belief but may try to live according to the law of the government which is their only moral standard. If abortion is legal and they do not get punished by the criminal justice system it will seem acceptable to them and there is social respect for abortion. It also means you don’t get a criminal record for performing or having an abortion and can work anywhere as far as I know so we have women working in all areas of health care and education who have had abortions. One of my friends who had an abortion works in Children’s Intensive Care for a hospital and of course her abortion was performed by the same hospital. It also means that midwives who are caring for pregnant mothers are implicated in abortions, referring them or could have performed them. Even though you are pro-life the legalisation of abortion affects you. I’m very afraid of giving birth at my local hospital as they also perform abortions and I do not know if the midwives that are dealing with me have helped others to have abortions. If it was backstreet then there would probably be a clear distinction between midwives and backstreet abortionists.

If you do not feel called to campaign against legalisation then sure try to help in another way. Sometimes it seems that campaigning doesn’t get very far but we are called to be witnesses. At least we have spoken out. Over here in Britain there are two organisations, one that is a political lobby called SPUC and one that deals with counselling women that have had abortions and providing hospices for pregnant women. I’m a member of the latter so you could go into that line if this appeals to you more.

**Are you saying that in Great Britain midwives are permitted to perform abortions?

Limerick**

 

[budgie2]

budgie2;5276169:

**Are you saying that in Great Britain midwives are permitted to perform abortions?

Limerick**

I can honestly say I don’t know but abortions are performed through our public health service, the NHS and women are referred for abortions by doctors and midwives may play a role although abortions are carried out in a different ward. I think it’s possible for somebody who has performed abortions to work as a midwife but I don’t know the law.

I think staff that work on abortion wards are called pregnancy advisory nurses or sexual health nurses here in Britain and not midwives which was my biggest fear.

 

[limerick]

I can honestly say I don’t know but abortions are performed through our public health service, the NHS and women are referred for abortions by doctors and midwives may play a role although abortions are carried out in a different ward. I don’t know what the job title is called for people who work on abortion wards and hope they are not called midwives but I’ll find out. I think it’s possible for somebody who has performed abortions to work as a midwife but I don’t know the law.

**
I’m most interested in the answer to this question. The function of a midwife is to assist in birth with as little intervention as possible. This from Wikipedia:**
*
"According to the International Confederation of Midwives (a definition that has also been adopted by the World Health Organization and the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics):*
**
"A midwife is a person who, having been regularly admitted to a midwifery educational program that is duly recognized in the country in which it is located, has successfully completed the prescribed course of studies in midwifery and has acquired the requisite qualifications to be registered and/or legally licensed to practice midwifery. The educational program may be an apprenticeship, a formal university program, or a combination. The midwife is recognised as a responsible and accountable professional who works in partnership with women to give the necessary support, care and advice during pregnancy, labour and the postpartum period, to conduct births on the midwife’s own responsibility and to provide care for the infant. This care includes preventive measures, the promotion of normal birth, the detection of complications in mother and child, accessing of medical or other appropriate assistance and the carrying out of emergency measures. The midwife has an important task in health counselling and education, not only for the woman, but also within the family and community. This work should involve antenatal education and preparation for parenthood and may extend to women’s health, sexual or reproductive health and childcare. A midwife may practice in any setting including in the home, the community, hospitals, clinics or health units!

“This definition is controversial and not everyone agrees with the exclusion of traditional midwives who in developing countries often are the only people available to assist women in birth.” **

From Wikipedia’s offering on midwifery in the United Kingdom:

"Midwives are at all times responsible for the woman for whom they are caring, to know when to refer complications to medical staff, to act as the woman’s advocate, and to ensure the mother retains choice and control over her childbirth experience. Many midwives are opposed to the so-called “medicalisation” of childbirth, preferring a more normal and natural option, to ensure a more satisfactory outcome for mother and baby."

In other words, midwifery focuses on birth, not abortion. While it may be true that a midwife may be called upon to to assist in an abortion, this is not an extension of her training which centers around bringing life into the world, not ending life. And a midwife can always refuse to participate in assisting in an abortion, and should by the very contradictory nature of the act. I don’t see any reason to regard the midwife from a fearful standpoint.

Limerick

 

[budgie2]

Many abortions that late are performed because it is thought that the baby will not survive anyway.

Assuming they are actually “elective,” under most state’s laws, they’re most likely considered criminal already.

How can you know that a baby will not survive? In any case abortion unnecessarily shortens a baby’s life. A baby without being aborted has a change of survival. A baby who is aborted has no chance of survival. If the baby dies naturally then it’s life has been taken by God. We should not take a person’s life prematurely as then we are breaking the commandment “Thou shalt not kill”. I would advise you to go to Confession.

My mother could have aborted me when I was in the womb. I was also fertilised egg, embryo and fetus. Why should I have the right to live if I do not give that to my children? You undermine the sanctity and worth of your own life.

 

[limerick]

How can you know that a baby will not survive? In any case abortion unnecessarily shortens a baby’s life. A baby without being aborted has a change of survival. A baby who is aborted has no chance of survival. If the baby dies naturally then it’s life has been taken by God. We should not take a person’s life prematurely as then we are breaking the commandment “Thou shalt not kill”. ** I would advise you to go to Confession.**

My mother could have aborted me when I was in the womb. I was also fertilised egg, embryo and fetus. Why should I have the right to live if I do not give that to my children? You undermine the sanctity and worth of your own life.

**The highlighted part of your post was unsolicited “advice” and unnecessary in the formulation of your position.

Limerick**

 

[DavidHume]

How can you know that a baby will not survive?

Oh, little things like not having a brain. Or too many chromosomes. Or killing the mother before being able to develop. Things like that.

 

[Luke_K]

Oh, little things like not having a brain. Or too many chromosomes. Or killing the mother before being able to develop. Things like that.

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/feb/08022603.html

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2158316/posts

christian.org.uk/news/20090326/healthy-baby-born-after-mum-was-told-to-abort/

operationrescue.org/archives/healthy-baby-narrowly-escapes-late-abortion-at-tiller%E2%80%99s-clinic/

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article451334.ece

 

[limerick]

With regard to the legality/illegality of abortion, please consider this woman’s story:

msmagazine.com/summer2004/womanandherdoctor.asp

Limerick

 

[livi]

abortion is the murder of a human being, and innocent unborn baby, and should therefore be illegal everywhere under any circumstances. and I do not think the Church has “fallen short” on this issue at all.

 

[livi]

And even if a baby has a serious medical condition or the pregnancy poses a risk to the mother’s health, that is not an excuse to kill an innocent person. Think about it, is it okay to kill a seriously sick person who has already been born or kill a healthy person for their organs because someone else desperately needs one. The lives of all the people involved must be respected when making a tough decision, and no one should be murdered nor should such murder ever be legal, whether it takes the form of abortion, assisted suicide or euthanasia, whatever. Even the death penalty should not be allowed.

And pro-choice is pro-abortion, because it means that a person is in favor of allowing abortion. Even if they say they don’t want to see it happen, they still think it should be allowed, at least in some cases.