What if We Stopped Trying to Make Abortion Illegal?

[St_Francis]

**Abortion most certainly IS a choice. A woman has options: to carry the pregnancy to term and keep the baby; to carry the pregnancy to term and put the baby up for adoption; to try to carry a baby to term if it has been shown to be genetically defective; to go horseback riding for nine straight months in hopes that she will miscarry; to seek out a legal surgical abortion. These are a few options on the smorgasboard of “choice”. Abortion is but one option, and there are others available to women through the avenue of free will, also called “choice”.

Limerick **

Anyone has a choice to do anything. Guess what? if I *chose, *I could go out and burglarize a house and kill the residents when they catch me. Sure, I have choice to do that.

What limits our choices are morality and legality. Some things which are illegal are not immoral, like which side of the road to drive on. The British drive on the other side of the road and that is just as moral as driving on the side the US drives on.

Some things are immoral and legal, like getting cold stone drunk in your own house.

Many things which are immoral are also illegal, like rape, murder, etc. This is because making those things illegal helps to protect people. What we currently have is a nation which does not legally protect its most vulnerable members. Abortion is legally an option, but morally not an option.

The wrongness, the evil of abortion, does not rest in whether it is legal or not; it rests in the action itself. It is simply wrong, and because it is legal, people are not being protected from being killed because of their status as unborn people.

So yes, from the *legal *standpoint, women have the choice to have an abortion; however, it is still wrong–they do not have the *moral *choice to have an abortion. From the physical standpoint, of course, we have the choice to do pretty much anything–rape, murder, steal, etc. The only difference is that for these we will (hopefully/theoretically) be put in prison.

So your post is not saying anything new, simply restating that people have the option to kill, which is true whether it is legal or not.

 

[St_Francis]

Would you like to know about my abortion? Is that legitimate enough for you?

Limerick

My sympathies on your situation which caused you to believe that this was necessary.

---

That being said, your having had an abortion does not legitimize anything you have to say any more than a former slave-holder has a more legitimate opinion on slavery than someone who never owned slaves.

 

[St_Francis]

**Where was the “poll” conducted? Outside a dozen churches after services had ended?

Limerick**

It was a regular Gallup poll conducted by telephone, one which they have been doing annually for 14 years. UPI article here.

 

[limerick]

Anyone has a choice to do anything. Guess what? if I *chose, *I could go out and burglarize a house and kill the residents when they catch me. Sure, I have choice to do that.

What limits our choices are morality and legality. Some things which are illegal are not immoral, like which side of the road to drive on. The British drive on the other side of the road and that is just as moral as driving on the side the US drives on.

Some things are immoral and legal, like getting cold stone drunk in your own house.

Many things which are immoral are also illegal, like rape, murder, etc. This is because making those things illegal helps to protect people. What we currently have is a nation which does not legally protect its most vulnerable members. Abortion is legally an option, but morally not an option.

The wrongness, the evil of abortion, does not rest in whether it is legal or not; it rests in the action itself. It is simply wrong, and because it is legal, people are not being protected from being killed because of their status as unborn people.

So yes, from the *legal *standpoint, women have the choice to have an abortion; however, it is still wrong–they do not have the *moral *choice to have an abortion. From the physical standpoint, of course, we have the choice to do pretty much anything–rape, murder, steal, etc. The only difference is that for these we will (hopefully/theoretically) be put in prison.

So your post is not saying anything new, simply restating that people have the option to kill, which is true whether it is legal or not.

**
Ah, but people do** have the moral choice to have an abortion; not everyone believes as Catholics do that abortion is morally abhorrent or wrong. For many, abortion is an act without any negative or positive connotation whatever, morally speaking.

By the way, I strongly disagree with you on the point you made about drinking oneself into oblivion being immoral, but that is another thread entirely.

Limerick

 

[St_Francis]

**
Ah, but people do** have the moral choice to have an abortion; not everyone believes as Catholics do that abortion is morally abhorrent or wrong. For many, abortion is an act without any negative or positive connotation whatever, morally speaking.
No. People do not have the moral choice to have an abortion, because abortion is inherently immoral. The fact that some people do not understand it to be immoral is not relevant to its morality or lack thereof, it only shows their lack of understanding.

 

[limerick]

No. People do not have the moral choice to have an abortion, because abortion is inherently immoral. The fact that some people do not understand it to be immoral is not relevant to its morality or lack thereof, it only shows their lack of understanding.

**I firmly disagree. When considering abortion, a spiritual woman is facing a moral dilemma. She can choose moral high ground or not. That makes it a decision of a moral nature. Those who choose abortion and believe it has no consequence will find out sooner or later whether they were correct.

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

I firmly disagree. When considering abortion, a spiritual woman is facing a moral dilemma.

First of all, the woman doesn’t have to be spiritual… Secondly, it is only a dilemma because our government has denied the humanity of the unborn child, confusing people who have not thought this through.

She can choose moral high ground or not.

Are you implying that one is the moral high ground and the other is not?

 

[limerick]

First of all, the woman doesn’t have to be spiritual… Secondly, it is only a dilemma because our government has denied the humanity of the unborn child, confusing people who have not thought this through.

I considered adding the word “spiritual” very carefully before deleting it and adding it again. The reason: a woman who does not have a spiritual foundation is less likely, or even unlikely, to find abortion a dilemma.

Are you implying that one is the moral high ground and the other is not?

**“One” what? Please explain. Thanks.

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

I considered adding the word “spiritual” very carefully before deleting it and adding it again. The reason: a woman who does not have a spiritual foundation is less likely, or even unlikely, to find abortion a dilemma.

Well, I would disagree but it’s too small a point to really argue about.

Are you implying that one is the moral high ground and the other is not?

“One” what? Please explain. Thanks.

Limerick

You wrote that a women when considering abortion could choose the moral high ground or not. What did you mean by that?

 

[limerick]

You wrote that a women when considering abortion could choose the moral high ground or not. What did you mean by that?

**
I meant that a spiritual woman, one with a spiritual foundation, could be inspired to not have an abortion. My earlier point, which you found insignificant, was that women who have a Higher Power in their lives are more likely to try to adhere to whatever they believe their Higher Power’s will for them would be. Of course, this is not always the case.

Then again, there are plenty of women who have no religious beliefs or whose beliefs are changing. Their lack of belief in God, or their grappling with religious, spiritual, or moral questions does not preclude them from refusing to consider abortion as an answer to an unexpected pregnancy.

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

**
I meant that a spiritual woman, one with a spiritual foundation, could be inspired to not have an abortion. My earlier point, which you found insignificant, was that women who have a Higher Power in their lives are more likely to try to adhere to whatever they believe their Higher Power’s will for them would be. Of course, this is not always the case.

Then again, there are plenty of women who have no religious beliefs or whose beliefs are changing. Their lack of belief in God, or their grappling with religious, spiritual, or moral questions does not preclude them from refusing to consider abortion as an answer to an unexpected pregnancy.

Limerick**

Thanks for explaining that.

You think that the issue of the woman’s spirituality is important because apparently you have seen that in the people you know. I have seen way too many people who call themselves spiritual do awful things to assume that a generic spirituality indicates much of anything, and it’s hard to tell the underneath part of someone from the outside, if you see what I mean.

 

[alacoque]

**I firmly disagree. When considering abortion, a spiritual woman is facing a moral dilemma. She can choose moral high ground or not. That makes it a decision of a moral nature. Those who choose abortion and believe it has no consequence will find out sooner or later whether they were correct.

Limerick**

The issue of aborting the unborn is not a religious or spiritual issue. It is common sense, scientific and logical. We have been thrust onto a ridiculous tangent, these many years, because of the whole Roe v Wade issue. We have incorporated abortion into some kind of civil rights issue and into the euphemisms like ‘reproductive rights’.

Before all that double-speak, we had a very simple proposition - which we still have now, if we’re intellectually honest. We have, simply, the issue of whether or not human life exists immediately after conception or not until some, other xx-point in time.

Science and genetics, in the 21st century, is clearly and unequivocally on the side of the existence, immediately following conception, of a genetically complete and unique being (thing??) which is neither the mother nor the father, but completely separate and unique.

Then, enter the ‘agendas’ and the labels…embryo, fetus, blastocyst, and on and on. The facts (scientific and genetic) are that all life of human origin is human life.

In addition, considering that late term abortions (all the way up to just before birth) ARE practiced, despite what propagandists like to say, it would behoove us to remember another fact: Birth is an EVENT in the life of a human being; it is not the beginning of life!

We have brought ourselves to a place of insanity with this issue. Anyone who is intellectually honest and not pushing any agenda in particular, can look at the situation in our society today and easily see that, whether it’s prosecuting as the murder of 2 persons, someone who takes the life of a pregnant woman or the almost limitless pro abortion ‘definitions’ of ‘life’, it boils down in every single case to one fact:

If a baby is wanted, it is a life and considered a person; if a baby is unwanted, the suffocating deluge of other terms come into play that allow the disposal of that life.

If we are honest, it’s simple to see that it’s whether or not the child is wanted that determines what we call that child. No one is fooling anyone (who pays attention and knows what’s going on!)

may God enlighten us to HIS will and desire for these (insert your own word).

 

[bobbyva2001]

I don’t think you interpreted what I said correctly, because very few of the replies made sense to me.

I was saying that you were stating an obvious fact and in doing so distracting from the act itself. Instead your were focusing on the words pro choice and not addressing the central debate, the killing of a child.

There is no hostility and no I do not expect everyone to agree with me. I just dislike arguments that dance around what is the core issue.

 

[bobbyva2001]

**Where was the “poll” conducted? Outside a dozen churches after services had ended?

Limerick**

What basis do you have for doubting the validity of that result? Your own experience? I suppose that is a more reliable source. Previous polls had actually shown larger numbers on the pro-life side. Usually when someone attempts to cast doubt on a result such as this they actually present evidence to the contrary, not rely on their witty snide remarks.

 

[limerick]

What basis do you have for doubting the validity of that result? Your own experience? I suppose that is a more reliable source. Previous polls had actually shown larger numbers on the pro-life side. Usually when someone attempts to cast doubt on a result such as this they actually present evidence to the contrary, not rely on their witty snide remarks.

**You got a problem with someone asking this question? If the answer is legit you have no reason to be defensive. Any quotation requires a footnote; why not a vague claim of a poll result that someone thought she heard on the radio recently but didn’t remember?

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

**You got a problem with someone asking this question? If the answer is legit you have no reason to be defensive. Any quotation requires a footnote; why not a vague claim of a poll result that someone thought she heard on the radio recently but didn’t remember?

Limerick**

I think it was the snide addition about only asking people who were leaving a church…

 

[Island_Oak]

What happens if we make it illegal? Will it save some lives? Sure. But just as many women will go over the borders or find back alley practitioners to obtain illegal abortions. It will not end the issue, it will simply sweep it under the rug. While we pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, babies will continue to die and we will see an increase in deaths from poorly performed abortions. I highly recommend seeing the movie “If These Walls Could Talk.” I would even go out on a limb to say that making abortion illegal without addressing the causes in the first place is borderline irresponsible…

It just seems to me our current approach is not working. What was that quote by Einstein?** Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results**. Instead of fighting a battle that in the end will not result in the desired outcome we switched tactics and started doing what we can to make abortion unnecessary to begin with?

Wonderful, well-considered, thoughtful post/thread. I couldn’t agree more. Thank you for your courage in offering this point of view.

 

[bobbyva2001]

**You got a problem with someone asking this question? If the answer is legit you have no reason to be defensive. Any quotation requires a footnote; why not a vague claim of a poll result that someone thought she heard on the radio recently but didn’t remember?

Limerick**

I don’t “got” a problem with anything. You also had cause to ask for some verification, but instead you had to include a wise comment.

 

[bobbyva2001]

Wonderful, well-considered, thoughtful post/thread. I couldn’t agree more. Thank you for your courage in offering this point of view.

Yah, so courageous to concede and appease that side seeing they have the prevailing influence and power in politics, national media,etc. Your are a real dare devil.

The courageous one is the old man who sits alone on a corner in front of thousands of people and holds a sign or prays his rosary in front of a clinic. The courageous ones are those who forget their anxieties and take a stand in public when hardly anybody does. Despite the anxiety of being scoffed at and ridiculed, still standing with a group of maybe 4 people in front of thousands to stand for whats right that is courage. Meanwhile thousands sit and say nothing because they would be embarrassed to do the same thing.

What is your courage? Making a unconventional comment for a catholic forum. While I agree with some of the strategic propositions you made, not fighting while thousands of children are legally murdered or while it is still legal to murder them is cowardly.

 

[LutheranDK]

**Why so interested in statistics and studies on this point? I am the statistic. I am the study. I’m one of many women who have had to resort to creative tactics to pay for an abortion. In my book, personal experience trumps some highbrow compendium that you require to substantiate my view.

And your reference to buying dope downtown - what has that to do with this topic? What do you mean this is morally neutral? Because it’s illegal, it would be morally perverse as well, would it not?

Limerick **

“Personal experiences” means jack shite in a general debate, because “personal experiences” cannot be taken as representative.