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limerick
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**And if one does not believe in God? Or if one’s belief in God is chacterized by doubt and fear?
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jamesneiman
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For those who have doubt and fear, I would suggest that they pray to God to reveal his Love and Mercy to them. But those who display arrogance and wish to delude themselves into thinking they are somehow equal to God because they have found a way to destroy life, well, their fear of God is indeed justified. Humility and forgiveness go together and accomplish a great deal.
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bobbyva2001
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No, I am not mad. Usually when someone jokes about something it means they prefer to be irrational. If that is the case I will let you continue your aimless banter uninterrupted. I will repeat that I believe you are masking your own culpability by this ongoing tirade you are carrying on.
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limerick
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thunderballs75
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That’s like asking “What if we stopped trying to make murder illegal, and tried instead to simply reduce murders?” The bottom line is that it should never happen and it cannot be permissible ever.
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limerick
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**How do you characterize my posts as a tirade? A tirade implies censure. If either of us is guilty of this it is you. Readers, check out bobbyva’s previous posts (#95 and #119 for starters) and see if you don’t find a contemptuous tone therein.
"I was saying that you were stating an obvious fact and in doing so distracting from the act itself. Instead your were focusing on the words pro choice and not addressing the central debate, the killing of a child," you say.
Debate, bobby. I don’t expect or demand that you agree with me. But if this is a debate then, like it or not, I have met the criteria for sharing a differing viewpoint. Now we can get back on the good foot here or I can put you on Ignore. Let’s see how it goes.
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Eucharisted
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Laws exist to protect liberties and freedoms. There will always be people who’s hearts cannot change. The law means nothing to them, but consequences of breaking the law do. If there were no laws, there would be no consequeces, because there would no morals. Cause and effect. People tend to think laws are born from morals, but it’s actually the other way around. The Natural Law shows this.
Now, what if we stopped trying to make rape illegal? Well, rape would have no legal consequeces, so it would increase. It would decrease, though, if hearts were changed. But that’s the thing: we don’t have to just focus on changing hearts or changing laws. The issues are mutual: You change laws by changing hearts and you change hearts by changing laws. It’s a vicious cycle. Prayer and fasting do wonders.
Now, what if we stopped trying to make rape illegal? Well, rape would have no legal consequeces, so it would increase. It would decrease, though, if hearts were changed. But that’s the thing: we don’t have to just focus on changing hearts or changing laws. The issues are mutual: You change laws by changing hearts and you change hearts by changing laws. It’s a vicious cycle. Prayer and fasting do wonders.
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jamesneiman
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For those who have decided that God does not exist, what a heartbreaking way to go through life it must be for them. To believe that this is all there is, that there is no loving and merciful God, must be Hell on Earth. To look at the miracles happening around and interpret them to be meaningless is to rob oneself of the greatest gifts this life has. I know a man whose heart stopped: it stopped during the one occasion in his life that he happened to be seated at dinner with a table full of cardiologists. He lives today because of that miracle, and yet he remains an atheist. He is one of the most miserable people I know.
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limerick
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**What does this post directly refer to? WHAT is like asking your question?
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limerick
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**This is a pretty broad stroke, the bit about people whose hearts cannot change having total disregard for civil law. First, the statement that there will always be people whose hearts cannot change begs explanation. What must their hearts change from/to? And how is it that you conclude that they have nothing but contempt for the law? Your premise reads as if you are referring exclusively to civil law. If this this not the case, say so. If this is the case, then your contention that laws mean nothing to them must be framed within the context that abortion is legal at this time. Therefore, anyone currently participating in abortion in the U.S. is operating within the law.
Rape is against the law. “What if” is immaterial. It’s challenging enough for citizens to deal with the here and now. Why not focus on what is within the law and what is not. If your argument comes from a moral standpoint, then address that. And this: “You change laws by changing hearts and you change hearts by changing laws” is a bumper sticker - without depth or meaning. Please explain your statement.
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bobbyva2001
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I only repeat my last lines. I think you commited the act and are trying to rationalize it to ease your own guilt. Thats all I have to say. I think you know it is true deep down.
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limerick
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**You’re evading saying that I had an abortion and am trying to rationalize it to ease guilt? You know what’s true deep down? My confession was sincere. I humbled myself before a priest to tell him the details of my sin. My mother was in the opposite confessional, which was extremely inhibiting, but I put it out there anyway. The priest gave me absolution and a penance, which I performed, along with other prayers. And my amends to God were to never repeat the act of abortion. I had two spontaneous miscarriages afterward, but delivered a normal, healthy daughter in 1987.
I do not feel guilty about what transpired 38 years ago. I have felt sorrow over my immaturity and ignorance. I had to develop a new moral code after divorcing my daughter’s father in 1988. This new code involved absolute sexual abstinence. Even though I am long past menopause now I see no reason to seek intimacy on any level with a man because I have been abused and lied to and deceived in relationships for most of my life. I passed the point of diminishing returns. I appreciate the simplicity of living without the burden of having a partner.
Your hit-and-run posting style is cowardly and I do hope you mean it when you write that this is all you have to say.
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bobbyva2001
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Actually, I was trying to keep it between you and I. That is why I didn’t say it, not because I was afraid. I figured you would understand what I was talking about.
Second, no offense I didn’t need the whole story. This isn’t personal. I am talking about abortion and have never strayed off that topic. Your relationships haven’t anything to do with it. I hope you have better luck in the future.
If you feel so guilty and felt what you did was wrong, why are you being so antagonistic? You haven’t come right out and said that you are pro choice. You seem to be just playing devils advocate for fun. You are not making any points just disagreeing without a substantive argument (with me at least).
I assure you that nothing I say is meant to be mean spirited. This isn’t an emotional thing for me. I was only questioning your comments and that is all this was about.
My use of tirade was not necessarily to describe you as bitter. It was rather to say that you were continuing on a long and zealous episode in general.
This has wondered far off the topic. I apologize if I upset you. I realize this is most likely a sensitive subject to you and I am being insensitive by being so blunt. Sorry.
Second, no offense I didn’t need the whole story. This isn’t personal. I am talking about abortion and have never strayed off that topic. Your relationships haven’t anything to do with it. I hope you have better luck in the future.
If you feel so guilty and felt what you did was wrong, why are you being so antagonistic? You haven’t come right out and said that you are pro choice. You seem to be just playing devils advocate for fun. You are not making any points just disagreeing without a substantive argument (with me at least).
I assure you that nothing I say is meant to be mean spirited. This isn’t an emotional thing for me. I was only questioning your comments and that is all this was about.
My use of tirade was not necessarily to describe you as bitter. It was rather to say that you were continuing on a long and zealous episode in general.
This has wondered far off the topic. I apologize if I upset you. I realize this is most likely a sensitive subject to you and I am being insensitive by being so blunt. Sorry.
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taylor2
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If America made abortion illegal I can tell you that other nations of the world would start to think more positively of America. Simple as that. America has so much influence in the world that this single act alone would begin to change people’s attitudes towards America. I live in Australia and our government has recently extended its abortion plans and this, I believe, was directly assimilated from America. So much is assimilated from the Americans that you usually hear people say, “we have become so americanised” (said with a negative tone). So I would say that if abortion were made illegal in America, it would eventually have a trickle down effect to so many other nations. This would begin sowing unity among nations. If America set a law that would protect the most innocent of life, people around the globe would start to feel that they could begin trusting America. It could only be positive. As it is, I know many people that feel that the only thing that seems to emanate from America is evil and anything that the people in power say should be taken with caution. As mother Theresa once said “As long as the child is not safe in its mothers womb, world peace is impossible”. How right she was.
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limerick
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SteveGC
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Hi again L. Just wanted to clarify some things about “free will”. It does give us the freedom to choose, but it doesn’t grant us our own personal moral code when making those choices. God sets the morals, and they are non-negotiable. It’s not morality for just Catholics. Or even Christians on the whole. It’s His moral code for all of humanity, even those who don’t believe in Him. You don’t have to believe in something for that something to be true. Indeed, one of the things that distinguishes Christians from non-Christians is this acceptance of the one moral standard set for all of us by our Creator. Non-Christians essentially reject part or all of this standard. Free will was not given to us as a gift so that we could choose immorally. That’s actually an abuse of free will. We can certainly abuse it if we want, but that’s not the intent of the gift. The gift of free will is a gift which we are supposed to use in decisions for God…it is the only way in which love for God can be truly expressed. Here’s more black and white from the Church.
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limerick
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I consider free will a gift, no strings attached. You can’t give someone a car and tell him he can only drive it up to 35 miles per hour. God gave us free will so that we might choose to use it according to his will, but many, many people do not. Free will with qualifications or limitations is not free and cannot be considered a gift. Abuses of free will are extremely common throughout the world. There is no visceral conflict when faced with chocolate versus vanilla. There is great visceral conflict when faced with abortion or motherhood with no skills, no money, no support network, no job, no confidence, no love.
People are going to do what they want, no matter what. Some folks’ offenses will be minor, and others’ will be profoundly serious. God sets the morals, and some believe they know how to live their lives according to this standard. Others do not know how to live according to God’s standards, and yet another group simply doesn’t care . In any case, if the afterlife proves that there is actually a fixed moral code to it, we all will suffer the consequences for those times we didn’t adhere to it.
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SteveGC
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I agree with you. I was not trying to state that free will HAS TO BE be used in a certain way, but merely that it is SUPPOSED to be used in a certain way. Certainly no one is forced to use it in any way. Seems you agree. My main point really was based on the idea of “our personal moral code”, which really does not exist. Seems you agree with that too. I thought you didn’t acknowledge that the universal standard was that of God’s, but rather that everyone is supposed to have their own. Seems I was mistaken about your belief. All that being said, I agree with everything you just posted here. I think the only thing left is why some people believe God wants us to intervene on His behalf, while others believe we’re all just supposed to deal with ourselves.
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limerick
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I’m not convinced that there is an objective moral code, nor am I convinced otherwise. I don’t really care one way or the other. I do what I think is right; I’ve been in some serious trouble in my life and I’ve maintained calm and order at other times. My problems stem from bipolar disorder as much as disillusionment with the world and the people in it. It is a daily struggle against very strong tides of hyper-obsession with some particular person, place, thing or institution. Other days I struggle to get out of bed and be responsible enough to go to work, completely unconnected to the world and angered by the fluffy notion that it contains promise for me or anyone else.
I believe life is difficult enough that we need not redirect our focus toward the next guy who is having a problem. It is enough for me to mind my own complicated business. I do not intervene in others’ lives, happy or sad, because my mind, heart and gut tell me it’s none of my business. I don’t want other people in my life. I am someone who craves the solitary life and despises having to interact. Unfortunately I must interact to make what those beneath the poverty level would consider “a living”. But I take after my father: the way for me to get to the end of this thing is self-imposed exile. I set it up that way as often as I can. Those who believe God wants them to intervene on His behalf are suffering delusions of grandeur.
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bobbyva2001
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Well, I tried to be nice to you but I can see you aren’t interested in being cordial. Truth is it is extremely difficult to have a debate with anyone who is pro-choice because often they have distorted their consciences so badly. Someday we will see how God feels about abortion.
We will also see if the Catholic church is Christ’s church and if it indeed is infallible. I think it is a shame you have no guilt over the child you had killed. Hopefully that will change.
I know I would feel guilty when I imagined holding my small child that would have been had I not had it killed by having its brain sucked out. My own flesh and blood that was supposed to be held safely in my womb, my child, my flesh and blood, defenseless. It would sicken me to know that I had my child cut apart and killed. Maybe I would try and rationalize it as well, because that type of guilt would be unbearable.
This may sound gruesome but that is what needs to be. If we talked about abortion for what it really is maybe people would see how truly terrible it is.
A human life is taken in its earliest stages perhaps but still it is a life. For after it is destroyed it ceases to be. Anyway good luck, I wish you the best no sarcasm intended. God bless.
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