what if you were in our (womens') shoes?

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You are married to a wonderful woman (you took her last name). You have a couple of great kids. After your wife had them, she went back to work, for she is the breadwinner. Your primary role is to be the father. So when she goes off to work, you stay home with the children.
Seems like a woman that wants to be a man and a woman at the same time. If I were truly in my wife’s shoes, I would get to give birth to them, nurse them, and be the primary care giver to them. While she spent 10 to 24 hours a day away from them, and would never have the bond with the kids that I would.
You and your wife have a pretty equal partnership, but as the bible commands you to do, you allow her to make the big decisions and head the family.
In an equal partnership no one is designated to make all the big decisions. The bible would ‘command’ my wife to love me like Christ loved his Church, which means she would be willing to dead for me. So she would take dangerous jobs, in the most horrible working conditions, so she could support me and the children. If she was in my shoes, she would join the military, and spend one fourth of her time away from me and the children. She would do this because Christ said to love me as Christ loved his Church. Her focus and purpose of being would be me and the children.
 
As a woman, I have no idea what it would feel like to be a man in that situation, but I can say one thing for certain: I’d miss the awesome, God-given ability and responsibility of bearing children. As a good friend of mine puts it, women have much more important things to do than being priests… RAISING priests. 😉

Even Our Lord showed deference to His Mother, and He still does. God truly honors women in a very special way, and I have no problem letting my husband, priest, bishop, and Pope take the brunt of the responsibility for my protection and provision. They can have the pants. I don’t want them. 🙂

Hope this helps!
 
As a woman, I can definitely relate to this. It annoys me when people say that women are one way, and men are another way (personality-wise) since I know that the roles are ‘blurred’ in myself - I am mother-like (despite not wanting children), but, at the same time, I consider it my responsibility to protect my family and friends, which is typically considered a ‘male role’. I do consider myself feminine - in a fairly loose meaning of the word - but I don’t think that considering certain traits feminine or masculine should be taken as always true.

As for the whole men being leaders in the Church, it’s difficult, but if women are humble about this then God will reward them in Heaven. The last will be first, after all! 😃
 
I don’t know what women need to complain about their role. When my 1 year old son cries, often I am left powerless. But one hug from mommy and its back to all smiles. Such is the power of a woman over her child. Men like me are envious.
 
I don’t know what women need to complain about their role. When my 1 year old son cries, often I am left powerless. But one hug from mommy and its back to all smiles. Such is the power of a woman over her child. Men like me are envious.
It’s interesting you see your efforts as so futile. I would consider this “powerless[ness]” (as you describe it) as a personal thing and not a collective experience held by all men. Nor are all mothers so lucky as to magically sooth their disconsolate infant with a mere hug.

To the OP, it’s not difficult to see why you would feel so demoralized by some of the gendered statements in the Bible. This is common among women accross all popular monotheistic faiths. I personally have difficulty understanding the apologists’ take on women’s roles versus men’s roles in God’s kingdom; women having the hallowed role of mothering to the next generation of Catholics or whathaveyou. I think the romance of such statements make us immediately weary. All such remarks constitute benevolent sexism–“positive attitudes that nonetheless serve to belittle women and keep them subservient” as gender psychologist Linda Brannon writes.

For instance, seeing men as protectors makes women (along with the family) the objects of protection. But to see women as being in specific need of protection (i.e., in ways only a man can provide) is to see them as weaker and less competent than men. Making attributions of warmth and compassion exclusively to women, too, has the tendency of making men the exclusive heirs to reason, competence, and (as the bible alludes) decision-making authority.

It can’t be overstated: the feelings your having are natural, totally understandable, and for many women (I won’t say all), irreconcilable.

I hope this is helpful 🙂

Kind regards,

Kleftiko.
 
It’s interesting you see your efforts as so futile. I would consider this “powerless[ness]” (as you describe it) as a personal thing and not a collective experience held by all men. Nor are all mothers so lucky as to magically sooth their disconsolate infant with a mere hug.
You missed his point. Generally, the tendency for youngins to seek comfort from the mother shows God’s plan at work, for the mother carried the baby and nursed the baby. Men and women are indeed different in this regard. The child’s instinct to seek and be comforted by his barer especially at the early stage of child development is natural. It is in this regard that the poster feels women are fortunate.

Men and women are equal in dignity but serve different functions. Such is the way of God. Women should continue to seek equality but not seek the same function as men, and vice versa. It is the effort of the person trying to change this fact of God’s plan where society erodes.
 
To the OP, it’s not difficult to see why you would feel so demoralized by some of the gendered statements in the Bible. This is common among women accross all popular monotheistic faiths. I personally have difficulty understanding the apologists’ take on women’s roles versus men’s roles in God’s kingdom; women having the hallowed role of mothering to the next generation of Catholics or whathaveyou. I think the romance of such statements make us immediately weary. All such remarks constitute benevolent sexism–“positive attitudes that nonetheless serve to belittle women and keep them subservient” as gender psychologist Linda Brannon writes.
Benevolence (act of charity or kindness) is one of the marks of love. I wonder how many heterosexual women would see the benevolence shown to them by the special man in their life as sexism; or would be weary of the celebration of the reproductive aspect of their femininity.
For instance, seeing men as protectors makes women (along with the family) the objects of protection. But to see women as being in specific need of protection (i.e., in ways only a man can provide) is to see them as weaker and less competent than men. Making attributions of warmth and compassion exclusively to women, too, has the tendency of making men the exclusive heirs to reason, competence, and (as the bible alludes) decision-making authority.
I think most women and even some men can reason that weak does not equal competent, compassion does not impede decision-making authority, and warmth is not the opposite of competence.
 
You missed his point. Generally, the tendency for youngins to seek comfort from the mother shows God’s plan at work, for the mother carried the baby and nursed the baby. Men and women are indeed different in this regard. The child’s instinct to seek and be comforted by his barer especially at the early stage of child development is natural. It is in this regard that the poster feels women are fortunate.
I agree, but can’t help thinking the reasoning even goes deeper. There is just something about women that draws a child. When my grandkids hurt themselves, they want grandma. Fortunately for me, many times grandpa will due.
 
I agree, but can’t help thinking the reasoning even goes deeper. There is just something about women that draws a child. When my grandkids hurt themselves, they want grandma. Fortunately for me, many times grandpa will due.
There is absolutely a power in our maternal and feminine nature that is a grace particular to women. I have a special bond with and knowledge of my children that my husband will never have. Likewise, he has a unique role of protection and discipline that I will never have. Neither of us begrudges the other, because we realize the complementary nature of our roles.

I find it very difficult to understand the women who feel threatened by our differences. They must be the ones who truly feel inferior. I’m sad for them, because I certainly don’t. Why should we rejoice in differences of culture or skin or language or art, but not of sex? Why not take joy in being different and celebrate one another’s strengths? 🙂
 
Good point. How many men died in wars and battles? I wonder if women would want to trade raising the kids and cooking the meals for being one of those clan warriors on the battlefield in Braveheart. :stretcher:
Actually, the women were fighting side by side with the men, in the real war upon which that movie is based - and yes, they were getting muddy and covered in blood, just like the men.

They didn’t like it any better than the men did, either, but they saw the need, and saw that they had a duty to fight for their land and their freedom.

Granted, in most cultures, women stay home and tend to the farm and the raising of the children while the men go to war, but it was only recently ever so with the Scots. 😉
 
If I were in a woman’s shoes, my feet would be very sore.
I am a woman, but I never chose to wear high heeled shoes, or any kind of uncomfortable “fashionable” shoes. If you were in my shoes, you’d be quite comfortable. 😉
 
I’m a woman and I don’t relate to what you are saying AT ALL. Yes, I think it’s silly.
Ditto.
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

It just feels like this “different but equal” stuff that always get thrown at women who have difficulty making sense of passages like those is just a way of waving one’s hand. Like “yeah yeah, you’re TOTALLY equal, now get back in your place and accept it.” I don’t see the equality. I try, I really do. Men are head of the church AND head of the family. What are women called to be the head of? I am called to be a mother in my family, but my husband is called to be the head of me. I am equal, yet subject of submission under my husband? How is that equality?

And how would men, who are comfortable knowing that they can do anything they want, be it father, priest, lawyer, stay at home dad, truly feel if it appeared to be God’s will that they be the silent helpers of women. That is how I feel sometimes, and it deeply hurts. Like I am here to be quiet, support “my man”, and raise my children. And there is nothing wrong with the last two, but it feels so limited. Men can have careers, lead a congregation, etc, AND be family men and raise the children. It’s just… what are the limits of men? I know they can’t have babies, but that is a biological difference, not a social and religious construct that purposefully excludes them.

I don’t even know what I am saying or how to word it. I just feel very demoralized to read some passages in the bible. They hurt. I want to be someone who the Lord would be proud of, but sometimes I feel that, knowing what thoughts are in my head, that he is horribly disappointed. Disappointed, simply with who I am. That I question these things. That they anger me. That I cannot understand. And dealing with that perceived disappointment is one of the most hurtful things of all.
Sometimes, when you’re not getting what you want, the appropriate response is to change what you want.
 
most, if not all married couples I know have the woman call the shots. And the man tags along quietly to keep the peace.
 
As a woman, I have no idea what it would feel like to be a man in that situation, but I can say one thing for certain: I’d miss the awesome, God-given ability and responsibility of bearing children. As a good friend of mine puts it, women have much more important things to do than being priests… RAISING priests. 😉

Even Our Lord showed deference to His Mother, and He still does. God truly honors women in a very special way, and I have no problem letting my husband, priest, bishop, and Pope take the brunt of the responsibility for my protection and provision. They can have the pants. I don’t want them. 🙂

Hope this helps!
I am glad to see that women like you still exist.
 
You missed his point. Generally, the tendency for youngins to seek comfort from the mother shows God’s plan at work, for the mother carried the baby and nursed the baby. Men and women are indeed different in this regard. The child’s instinct to seek and be comforted by his barer especially at the early stage of child development is natural. It is in this regard that the poster feels women are fortunate.
I understand where you’re coming from with the attachment buisness. As you’ve said, infants are initially drawn to their mothers in their early infancy. There are biological reasons for this revolving around food aquisition, body scent, rhythms, sound of the voice, and so on. Studies support that within the same year, infants show just as much attachment to their fathers as to their mothers (due to the fact that they tend to hold, touch, talk to, and kiss their infants just as often). It may be specious, therefore, to reason that God has made such a clear distinction in roles, as neither men nor women have any special advantage in child reering, attatchment, and so forth–only that, due to circumstances, attachment is more prominant between mother and infant initially.
Men and women are equal in dignity but serve different functions. Such is the way of God. Women should continue to seek equality but not seek the same function as men, and vice versa. It is the effort of the person trying to change this fact of God’s plan where society erodes.
I understand this to be both a religious concept and a cultural one. I say only that role differentiation tends to be minimized greatly in the empirical realm, even if roles are very distinct culturally. That is, gender differences tend to be culturally created, rather than biologically mandated. It may be the case, as per your religion, that although not much can be said for there being a biologically based difference in abilities, propensities, and competencies between men and women, that God still requires men and women to assume different tasks. I think, therefore, that nothing in what you and I are saying necessarily precludes each other’s position.
Benevolence (act of charity or kindness) is one of the marks of love. I wonder how many heterosexual women would see the benevolence shown to them by the special man in their life as sexism;
We’re working with different definitions of benevolence here. Taking the one I quoted above (and it’s not really important what the definition is, so much as how it’s operationalized), it may be reasonable to assume that many heterosexual women receive comments that attribute to them a hallowed position–“you’re warm and compassionate; you’re a great mother”–only to discourage them from male-dominated roles. Sexism, in this case, is not just what is said, but what is intended. It is therefore speculative what can sometimes be considered sexist.
or would be weary of the celebration of the reproductive aspect of their femininity.
I like the wording you chose here. I don’t know how many women would be weary of reproduction as an aspect of their femininity, but as a defining feature–that is another story.
I think most women and even some men can reason that weak does not equal competent, compassion does not impede decision-making authority, and warmth is not the opposite of competence.
I agree. I think that this is easily reasoned, too, but from whence comes the need to submit in any way? We submit to authorities, for example, because they have some knowledge that we do not, or failing that, power. But I can think of no need for such a power differential in a marriage or in a faith. The edict to ever be silent or submissive can, as the OP has suggested, be very demoralizing. It is at least understandable how it comes accross this way.
 
Actually, the women were fighting side by side with the men, in the real war upon which that movie is based - and yes, they were getting muddy and covered in blood, just like the men.

They didn’t like it any better than the men did, either, but they saw the need, and saw that they had a duty to fight for their land and their freedom.

Granted, in most cultures, women stay home and tend to the farm and the raising of the children while the men go to war, but it was only recently ever so with the Scots. 😉
Do you have a link to information stating such? I would be very interested.
 
I understand where you’re coming from with the attachment buisness. As you’ve said, infants are initially drawn to their mothers in their early infancy. There are biological reasons for this revolving around food aquisition, body scent, rhythms, sound of the voice, and so on. Studies support that within the same year, infants show just as much attachment to their fathers as to their mothers (due to the fact that they tend to hold, touch, talk to, and kiss their infants just as often). It may be specious, therefore, to reason that God has made such a clear distinction in roles, as neither men nor women have any special advantage in child reering, attatchment, and so forth–only that, due to circumstances, attachment is more prominant between mother and infant initially.
It was God’s plan that men (physically stronger) work and protect and women (physically weaker) bare and take care of the children. Hence, the attachment to the mother is more generally present among toddlers because the obvious qualities of each gender has dictated the gender roles.
 
Just a spelling nitpick - women “bear” (carry) children - they don’t “bare” them (make them naked). 😉
 
I don’t know what women need to complain about their role. When my 1 year old son cries, often I am left powerless. But one hug from mommy and its back to all smiles. Such is the power of a woman over her child. Men like me are envious.
You gotta practice mate. Your inability shows only that you haven’t comforted your baby enough before. Your baby is not a new born infant any longer. Man up and get the attachment fixed with your baby, so that she/he doesnt grow up insecurely attached with you…
My dad told himself he was a helpless man when I was a baby. He never did change a diaper. Now I am an adult and my relationship with my dad has always been strained because I wasn’t security attached to him as a little child.
 
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