what if you were in our (womens') shoes?

[meltzerboy]

You just made my point.
The experience of the OP is not recognized as valid by you so you totally avoid the core problematic and ridicule it instead. I wonder if you think thats going to change the situation for the better?

Let me state to begin with that I am a Jewish man. However, I totally sympathize (I cannot empathize since I’m not a Christian woman) with your viewpoint. With regard to the poster who includes those weeping icons, there is a passage from either the Torah or Talmud that forbids men to insult women for “G-d counts her tears.” Reading through some of the comments, it seems most of the men are rationalizing their attitudes by saying how difficult it really is for MEN, who might willingly change roles if they could, and how much spiritually and emotionally stronger women really are. Or else they are saying women are not obedient to G-d’s Will by being under the negative influence of the secular, liberal, feminist society of the West. The only valid point I’ve read (and I haven’t read all the posts) is that women do have the wonderful albeit painful experience of childbirth and immediate contact and nurturing of their baby. If it is any consolation to you and other women who feel as you do, SOME men really do understand and don’t feel the need to defend their gender and their sometimes shameless behavior toward women. And there is even a sizable number of Orthodox Jewish women who empathize with your thoughts and feelings on this issue.

 

[TrueLight]

So men are “cursed” with the job of being the leader of the family – but you want to be in control. Ladies, let me ask you, do you realize what that means? That means that if I go to hell it’s your fault. Is that what you are asking for when you want to be “liberated” from the oppressive Word of God?

Some of us are in that role whether we like it or not. My husband is dead, so yeah, I am protector, nurturer and spiritual leader.

I don’t want to be bossy or anything else, but I accept my role as the spiritual leader of this family. If any of my family members go to hell, then I pray that I may go with them to keep them company. That includes any who may have or may in the future, stray away from their religious practices. Who in his right mind would want that job? I didn’t want it until the Lord opened my eyes to the fact that I have no choice; the job is mine as is the responsibility that comes with it.

I’d love to talk to a woman who has THAT kind of nerve. It’s easy to go learn engineering and then displace me at my job. Let’s see what REAL courage you have, though, and see if you want to take the fall for the judgments that others receive from God? If you have that courage, speak up and let’s talk turkey. I have a lot of work I can think of that 99% of the men and women are too chicken or too unprepared to do.

You are the epitome of arrogance, LOL. This is what can happen when men get all puffed up with their roles.

Basically, it’s fun to think we’re Jesus when it comes to preaching, comforting, and generally doing corporal and spiritual acts of mercy. But are you willing to be tortured, rejected by the world, and crucified and sent to hell for others? That’s what God asks of every father of every family. You want role reversal, I’m more than willing to lay that on your shoulders for a while.

Again. some of us are already doing it.

 

[surfinpure]

To your first sentence… sure, why not. If a man comes and makes a thread about how he feels undervalued as a man I shall seek to understand him and listen and give good advice. Unlike the harshness and unwillingness to understand which is shown on this thread. By the way, I have read books in the past written about the specific problems of men … these exist too, and why should I deny it unless it makes me really uneasy to deal with the facts?

number 2. I speak for myself, the OP, my sisters and many women in my own country whom I have talked to. Do you mind?.. or am I only allowed to use plural if I speak for you?

You too far gone to go into the problematics of a fellow sister? Because no body asked you to not be a happy Catholic woman. So am I, by the way… but it doesn’t mean I wanna be avoidant about this real issue which causes many women a great deal of insecurity.
You are far gone you say… you mean you are gone beyond humanity and its struggles? I hope not. Please do come back.

What I mean precisely is that I am “too far gone” to be affected by the unfortunate perspective in the original post. I can compassionate with my sisters in the faith, sure. What I’m expressing is that it’s possible to (and many women do) come away from the facts listed with a completely different perspective.

I have no problem with the hierarchy set up by our heavenly Father - yes, Father.

I understand that much of what occurred in the OT was part of a developing culture that only got the Truth and the Light in pieces at a time.

I willingly and happily accept that God has given different and complementary roles to men and women.

I don’t mind at all that He instructed the men to “lay down their lives” for us women, and that in return we are to submit in important matters to our men.

It doesn’t bother me that we call God Father, that Jesus was a man, that the popes, bishops, and priests are all men. ** They have a hard job; we have a hard job.** If we do our jobs well, we make each other’s burdens a little lighter. We get each other to Heaven. We pick up the slack where the other is weaker. (Yes, men are weaker in some ways, women are weaker in others. We have to help each other. God made us that way for a good reason.)

You know, the more I think of it, the sadder I feel for the women (and men) who have come to the conclusion that they have it badly because of how they were born. Because it’s a **deception **of the evil one. We must remember two VERY IMPORTANT things:

1. We all have it badly, because we are fallen, broken, flawed, and concupiscent.
2. We all are blessed far beyond measure, because we have Jesus Our Lord, the Holy Spirit, the Eucharist, His Mother, the Saints, the Angels, the Church, the Scriptures, the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, the Sacraments, the Mystical Body of Christ, and the prayers of the Faithful … and even **Suffering **itself is a blessing. Therefore, for whatever injustice we feel we encounter (real or perceived), we have another reason to give thanks to Almighty God for bringing us a step closer to Heaven!

And when I think of it, I am so filled with joy that there is no room to be miserable. I pray fervently now that all of my sisters will one day know this same joy. No “man” can destroy it!

Peace of Christ,

mary

 

[TrueLight]

I sometimes wonder why so many don’t understand why some women may become a bit demoralized by the passages in the bible that refer to us. Put yourself in this world, in the world that women live in. Imagine that this is how things were, not that you WERE a woman, but a man, in this situation.

---

You are married to a wonderful woman (you took her last name). You have a couple of great kids. After your wife had them, she went back to work, for she is the breadwinner. Your primary role is to be the father. So when she goes off to work, you stay home with the children.

The whole family goes to church together on Sundays. You listen to the female priest give the sermon, because in this world the bible is clear that the church is domain of the woman, and the church is “her” husband. After all the bible states “let your men be kept silent in churches : for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their wives at home: for it is a shame for men to speak in the church.” It is not god’s will that men be ordained, because after all, Jesus picked only women apostles.

You are not bitter about this, though, because you know that men and women have different roles. Women are called to the church and to be the head of the family (“the head of ever woman is Christ, and the head of the man is the woman” and “for the woman is not of the man, but the man for the woman. Neither was created for the man, but the man for the woman” as is seen in the bible) and men are called to the family and to be fathers. You are equal, but just have different roles.

You and your wife have a pretty equal partnership, but as the bible commands you to do, you allow her to make the big decisions and head the family. "Let the men learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a man to teach, nor to usurp authority over the woman, but to be in silence. For Eve was first formed, then Adam.” Because of the many passages like this, you accept that sometimes you must submit to her.

---

I mean, i just wonder how men may feel if this is how things were. If the roles were reversed. What if all the passages in the bible about womens’ submission, male roles, etc were backwards? So I am just curious, what is your (men or woman’s) reaction to the above? Does imagining it make you at all uncomfortable? Do you think you would not be disappointed for that to be the case, but fully embrace whatever God’s will is for you the way women do? Would you feel, at all, inferior? Does the above sound just “silly” or “nonsensical”? I am interested in any thoughts!

Awesome post.

You know, I haven’t really experienced this kind of pain. I’ll tell you why.

I grew up in a Christian family and yes, I did have issues with the whole “men is the head of the woman” scriptures. However, I was raised by a Christian mom, who is not a typical woman. She is assertive, raised us as single parents and never really ascribed to the belief that she was a second-class citizen in the eyes of god.

When church members would try to force me into roles that didn’t come naturally, especially domestic roles, I just laughed.

My husband did not try to force me into any roles, so I never had issues.

During the past 6 years, I have been attending a church that has some women pastors.

I’m not sure what my experience will be when I enter the Catholic Church. We shall see.

 

[Stephen168]

What, for you, would be specific evidence that some women want to be men? Or in other words, what behaviours would you witness in a woman to conclude that “she wants to be a man”?

Women can never BE men, they can only act like them. Just as homosexuals can never BE married just act like it. In an advanced society, the act can look real.

Envy is the pain caused by the good fortune of others; actual or perceived. Some women believe power (ability to act) is the only thing worth having, they perceive men as having power, and they don’t believe there is any biological difference as to why they too can not act (power) like men. Of course they are not men, can not be men (act like men), and seemed to be frustrated unhappy people.

My personal epiphany of this came when viagra was released to the market and covered by health insurance companies. ‘Feminist’ began to opine that women’s birth control should also be covered by health insurance companies become they were basically the same as viagra. Simplified, their reasoning was they wanted to act like men; the worst of men at that.

The OP is an envious post using cherry picked phrases from the bible and interpreted by the OP to cast a negative light on Christianity. The negativity comes from envy.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Laides, I hate to tell you this, but I know you are only showing me love with your comments.

If you want to feel the love that men have for you, try communicating in a language they understnad – simplicity.

My wife gave me a lesson in this, this morning. I had to set a timer and shut my mouth for 15 minutes, during which she was allowed to talk, and so she did for the last 2 minutes.

Here’s what she said:
I woke up and nobody was here and i didn’t know where YOU were and thought maybe you were going manic AGAIN and nobody else was up in the house and I didn’t see your note until 40 minutes after you left and i have a terrible headahce and I just wanted to get up and have a GOOD day for a change and all I wanted was 15 minutes of quiet so I could say my prayers but then I didn’t get to do my prayer because … and now my headache is so bad it feels like I have FOUR EYES and … blah blah blah " well, you get the picture.

Now, ladies: consider being up front and honest with your man about your feelings, and maybe he’ll understand you. I strained my brain, but finally figured out what she was saying to me, in male lingo.

“I woke up and didn’t see you, so i wondered where you were. i didn’t see your note right away, and was frightened. I felt lonely because nobody else was up and you were gone. i felt separated, especially since I don’t know how you are feeling or whether you’re ok, because i don’t even know when to expect you home. I found your note, so thank goodness everything is OK. Also, I just am feeling a bit frustrated because when I am stressed and try to do the Right Thing by saying my prayers, I end up something happens and I can’t even spend a few minutes with God.”

Now, see if you can’t try talking to a man without hiding or faking your feelings, or expecting him to read your mind. I can be your first victim, if you wish to experiment in the area of bridging the male-female communication gap. This could be the “shot heard around the world.”

Alan

 

[TrueLight]

Seems like a woman that wants to be a man and a woman at the same time. If I were truly in my wife’s shoes, I would get to give birth to them, nurse them, and be the primary care giver to them. While she spent 10 to 24 hours a day away from them, and would never have the bond with the kids that I would.

Is a woman her uterus?

I am tired of hearing about how happy we are that we can bear children.

I thank God for my beautiful children, but that is one aspect of me. Not every woman is a bundle of sewing, knitting, cooking and traditionally girly things.

I’m certainly feminine in appearance, but God didn’t create me with these womanly virtues that are constantly being enumerated.

 

[TrueLight]

The way I have always made piece with the parts of the bible that seem anti-women is this way:

I never ascribed to the fact that men are priests because they represent Christ. If that were the case, then the church should be all women because it represents a bride, which is female.

God is neither male nor female. The Logos had to come as a man because the jews lived in a patriarchal society and no one would listen to a female messiah. Positions of leadership were held by men. Therefore, by sending Jesus and by calling men to be Apostles, God creates an effective way for the gospel to be preached.

That is my opinion. Do not ask me for references.

So we continue in the tradition of the early church which is fine by me…

Does anyone believe these roles will exist in heaven? Jesus said there is no female or male in heaven.

My problem is with men who use those verses to keep women in their places.

Stop telling us we should be happy to be mothers and reproduce. We can do that and still have careers if we so choose and achieve our full potentials.

 

[rayne89]

I am in “our” shoes because I am a woman. I am quite proud of the role of women in the church. Truly God in his great mercy and wisdom has given some of the best roles to us. We have been so misled by the modern feminist agenda that anytime a woman’s role is different then a man we are being oppressed.

Serving God has never been about power, or decision making or administrative duties. These are burdens not blessings. God established these roles, I do not question his wisdom.

This is not saying women are inferior at all, quite the contrary. Women have been blessed with a deep sense of spirituality, compassion and mercy; as well as great intelligence and intuition. We have been given the gift to bring forth life. God uses us to bring forth new souls for His kingdom. We should not brush this aside as “oh yes we woman can babies big deal” because it is a big deal, a very big deal.

It’s seems your under the impression that the Bible teaches women are not capable of the decisions required in positions of authority in the church (such as priest, bishop or pope) Or that they do not trust women to make such decisions and so husbands must. Popes, bishops and priest have and continue to seek out the wisdom of holy woman. Likewise a husband who truly loves his wife as Christ loves the Church seeks out the wisdom of his holy wife. This is not about capability but about calling. But nobody sees or knows about these women so it’s not fair? After all they receive no credit. Ahh but see this is where women have been far greater blessed.

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. Matt 6:1

We have greater opportunity to practice humility. We can give of ourselves, of our God given abilities, without any earthly credit. Why do we need it when are calling is to serve God?

We are free to develop a deep prayer life without the distractions of administrative duties. Motherhood and consecrated religious life, as well as a single woman serving the church is far more conducive to following Christ the dealing with parish politics and attending bishops conferences.

Are women capable of making major decisions? Of course they are. But God gave the burden of making the final decision if agreement can not be reached to the husband in the family. Our vision has been so clouded by feminist ideology we see this as an insult -when in truth we should pray for our husbands who must carry this responsibility, this burden, and answer to Christ for it.

Christ did not come into this world as a powerful king but as a innocent child. Someone must help run his church on earth, so he gave this burden to men. As holy men of God they must pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and I trust that guidance.

If you read St Therese (The Little Flower) or St. Faustina or other female saints you will see our role is very great in the church.

Remember this Bible passage?

*38. In the course of their journey he came to a village, and a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. *

*39. She had a sister called Mary, who sat down at the Lord’s feet and listened to him speaking. *

*40. Now Martha, who was distracted with all the serving, came to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister is leaving me to do the serving all by myself? Please tell her to help me.” *

*41. But the Lord answered, “Martha, Martha,” he said, "you worry and fret about so many things, *

42. and yet few are needed, indeed only one. It is Mary who has chosen the better part, and it is not to be taken from her."

We are given the better part.

 

[Stephen168]

Is a woman her uterus?

I am tired of hearing about how happy we are that we can bear children.

No, a uterus is part of a women, the part is not the whole. To think a part is equal to the whole is irrational; like your response to my post. You might try to understand my post as a response to a woman that wants to act like a man BUT not give up her uterus; wanted to be a man and a woman at the same time. If she wants to pretend she is a man, be one; all man and only a man.

I don’t talk much in groups, I try to see people as individuals. I don’t know you, so I would never say you were ‘happy’ to bear children. I never told the OP she would be ‘happy’ to bear child. My wife was very happy to bear children and she paid just enough attention in biology class to know that is something only women can do whether they are ‘happy’ about it are not.

 

[surfinpure]

I am in “our” shoes because I am a woman. I am quite proud of the role of women in the church. Truly God in his great mercy and wisdom has given some of the best roles to us. We have been so misled by the modern feminist agenda that anytime a woman’s role is different then a man we are being oppressed.

Serving God has never been about power, or decision making or administrative duties. These are burdens not blessings. God established these roles, I do not question his wisdom.

This is not saying women are inferior at all, quite the contrary. Women have been blessed with a deep sense of spirituality, compassion and mercy; as well as great intelligence and intuition. We have been given the gift to bring forth life. God uses us to bring forth new souls for His kingdom. We should not brush this aside as “oh yes we woman can babies big deal” because it is a big deal, a very big deal.

It’s seems your under the impression that the Bible teaches women are not capable of the decisions required in positions of authority in the church (such as priest, bishop or pope) Or that they do not trust women to make such decisions and so husbands must. Popes, bishops and priest have and continue to seek out the wisdom of holy woman. Likewise a husband who truly loves his wife as Christ loves the Church seeks out the wisdom of his holy wife. This is not about capability but about calling. But nobody sees or knows about these women so it’s not fair? After all they receive no credit. Ahh but see this is where women have been far greater blessed.

"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. Matt 6:1

We have greater opportunity to practice humility. We can give of ourselves, of our God given abilities, without any earthly credit. Why do we need it when are calling is to serve God?

We are free to develop a deep prayer life without the distractions of administrative duties. Motherhood and consecrated religious life, as well as a single woman serving the church is far more conducive to following Christ the dealing with parish politics and attending bishops conferences.

Are women capable of making major decisions? Of course they are. But God gave the burden of making the final decision if agreement can not be reached to the husband in the family. Our vision has been so clouded by feminist ideology we see this as an insult -when in truth we should pray for our husbands who must carry this responsibility, this burden, and answer to Christ for it.

Christ did not come into this world as a powerful king but as a innocent child. Someone must help run his church on earth, so he gave this burden to men. As holy men of God they must pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and I trust that guidance.

If you read St Therese (The Little Flower) or St. Faustina or other female saints you will see our role is very great in the church.

Remember this Bible passage?

*38. In the course of their journey he came to a village, and a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. *

*39. She had a sister called Mary, who sat down at the Lord’s feet and listened to him speaking. *

*40. Now Martha, who was distracted with all the serving, came to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister is leaving me to do the serving all by myself? Please tell her to help me.” *

*41. But the Lord answered, “Martha, Martha,” he said, "you worry and fret about so many things, *

42. and yet few are needed, indeed only one. It is Mary who has chosen the better part, and it is not to be taken from her."

We are given the better part.

Excellent post, rayne!

 

[surfinpure]

No, a uterus is part of a women, the part is not the whole. To think a part is equal to the whole is irrational; like your response to my post. You might try to understand my post as a response to a woman that wants to act like a man BUT not give up her uterus; wanted to be a man and a woman at the same time. If she wants to pretend she is a man, be one; all man and only a man.

I don’t talk much in groups, I try to see people as individuals. I don’t know you, so I would never say you were ‘happy’ to bear children. I never told the OP she would be ‘happy’ to bear child. My wife was very happy to bear children and she paid just enough attention in biology class to know that is something only women can do whether they are ‘happy’ about it are not.

I think perhaps some of the other women are upset that I and others have expressed that we are indeed very happy to bear children. And there’s also a false simplification of our roles that fits the straw-man argument. Nobody ever said “just be happy to bear children.” But that’s what’s being argued against, sadly.

 

[Kleftiko]

Women can never BE men, they can only act like them. Just as homosexuals can never BE married just act like it. In an advanced society, the act can look real.

Envy is the pain caused by the good fortune of others; actual or perceived. Some women believe power (ability to act) is the only thing worth having, they perceive men as having power, and they don’t believe there is any biological difference as to why they too can not act (power) like men. Of course they are not men, can not be men (act like men), and seemed to be frustrated unhappy people.

My personal epiphany of this came when viagra was released to the market and covered by health insurance companies. ‘Feminist’ began to opine that women’s birth control should also be covered by health insurance companies become they were basically the same as viagra. Simplified, their reasoning was they wanted to act like men; the worst of men at that.

The OP is an envious post using cherry picked phrases from the bible and interpreted by the OP to cast a negative light on Christianity. The negativity comes from envy.

So, to answer my question, you’re suggesting that because women wanted the birth control pill to be covered under insurance, that they wanted to [act like / be] a man? Can you think of any more concrete examples. I feel like my question is being evaded in favour of drawing on your construction of penis envy.

try communicating in a language they understnad – simplicity…

blah blah blah…

consider being up front and honest with your man about your feelings, and maybe he’ll understand you…try talking to a man without hiding or faking your feelings

A failure to understand your wife is not exclusively her problem in communication. Your assessments are highly offensive.

My problem is with men who use those verses to keep women in their places.

Stop telling us we should be happy to be mothers and reproduce. We can do that and still have careers if we so choose and achieve our full potentials.

That’s right

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Now, ladies: consider being up front and honest with your man about your feelings, and maybe he’ll understand you. I strained my brain, but finally figured out what she was saying to me, in male lingo.

LOL. Somehow I didn’t think anyone would touch this one.

Alan

 

[Kleftiko]

LOL. Somehow I didn’t think anyone would touch this one.

Alan

You spoke to soon. See my post above.

 

[TrueLight]

I think perhaps some of the other women are upset that I and others have expressed that we are indeed very happy to bear children. And there’s also a false simplification of our roles that fits the straw-man argument. Nobody ever said “just be happy to bear children.” But that’s what’s being argued against, sadly.

I would guess that most mothers are happy that they were able to bear children and revel in their roles as mothers.

Actually, I was only responding to the men who responded in an arrogant/superior manner. There is a sprinkle of men (okay a drop or two) who are able to see where the OP is coming from. It doesn’t mean they disagree with the Church’s teaching, but they understand why someone of a feminine gender might feel that way.

I specifically chose not to address the women who chimed in with “Oh dear me… why do you feel that way?”

I understand that everyone does not experience things the same way, but I find the inability for some women to at least empathize with their sister the OP, a bit disturbing.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Good post Rayne 89!

Jesus speaks about wishing to take the place of honor at a wedding. He says to take the lowest place so that when your host approaches you he will say, “My friend, come up higher.” For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled and he who humbles himself shall be exalted. Luke 14: 8-11.

 

[TrueLight]

Good post Rayne 89!

Jesus speaks about wishing to take the place of honor at a wedding. He says to take the lowest place so that when your host approaches you he will say, “My friend, come up higher.” For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled and he who humbles himself shall be exalted. Luke 14: 8-11.

So ours is the lowest role?

 

[surfinpure]

So ours is the lowest role?

We should all want the lower role - that’s the point of the parable, isn’t it? “The greatest among you shall be your servant.”

 

[GraceDK]

Let me state to begin with that I am a Jewish man. However, I totally sympathize (I cannot empathize since I’m not a Christian woman) with your viewpoint. With regard to the poster who includes those weeping icons, there is a passage from either the Torah or Talmud that forbids men to insult women for “G-d counts her tears.” Reading through some of the comments, it seems most of the men are rationalizing their attitudes by saying how difficult it really is for MEN, who might willingly change roles if they could, and how much spiritually and emotionally stronger women really are. Or else they are saying women are not obedient to G-d’s Will by being under the negative influence of the secular, liberal, feminist society of the West. The only valid point I’ve read (and I haven’t read all the posts) is that women do have the wonderful albeit painful experience of childbirth and immediate contact and nurturing of their baby. If it is any consolation to you and other women who feel as you do, SOME men really do understand and don’t feel the need to defend their gender and their sometimes shameless behavior toward women. And there is even a sizable number of Orthodox Jewish women who empathize with your thoughts and feelings on this issue.

Dear friend, or shall I say older brother in the faith?

Thank you for this post. It illustrates my point which is that the OP is really not difficult to understand… it only takes the ability to live one self into another person’s situation.

I used the example of Jews in an earlier post here.
And I still find that Jews, black people, and others who have tried to be / or feel like second ranking somewhere, can more readily understand where the OP is coming from.
It’s really not that difficult.

It seems like a veil goes down over some people’s eyes the soon as something is questioned. I personally don’t feel marginalised by God… what I advocate here is that the points of the pening poster be understood and taken seriously, because what provokes me are solely the statements that indicate she is

• Irrational or envious
• she is to suffer in silence although her feeling is like a ticking bomb under relationship with God.
• That she should be laughed at instead of answered intelligently
• that she is to understand that motherhood is a great privilege - something wholly irrelevant to the points of her opening points.

I myself used to sit in the church and hear certain passages from the Bible and me and my sisters would feel uneasy… - many things in the Old Testament especially - oh how many tears I have cried on that account about how women were treated - and some sayings of Paul.
Through the right interpretation of these passages - mainly by Pope John Paul 2. my sisters and I have become fully at ease.

So I advice the OP to read JP2s letter on the dignity of women… and other things he has written.

As for you, I’d love to be aquainted. Its great you are here. I might stock you (have an irrational love of all things Jewish and I love Israel)