what if you were in our (womens') shoes?

[AlanFromWichita]

A failure to understand your wife is not exclusively her problem in communication. Your assessments are highly offensive.

Ladies, I apologize if I come across callous or blaming, because that is not my intent.

All I’m saying is, once you’ve tasted TRUE love, like the kind that God has for us, then suddenly everything makes sense, and you are in for a wild ride as suddenly dirt from the past turns into roses in the present and Divine Union in the near future.

Imagine if Jesus said to you, like was in yesterday’s gospel, “you are not far from the kingdom of heaven?”

Would you answer him, "Yes, Lord, we love you but first please take care of your men before I’ll recognize that I’m already in heaven, once I’m born of the spirit.

Watching people be born of the spirit is really cool, and very enriching. I pray to the Lord, if it be His will, that each of us on this thread including lurkers, be amply blessed as our faith in you assures us that we are. Thank you, Lord, for Catholic Answers and this chance to have meetings of minds and hearts across the nations. Those things I don’t understand about others’ point of view are mysterious and wondeful to me, and I am open to your revealing any of those mysteries you think appropriate, even if it causes me temporary or permanent removal from my comfort zone. I trust by faith that You will hear my prayer, Lord, and that you will in fact bless each of us with our own individual spirit-clothes, all garments worthy of sitting together in peace and unity, at Your table. Open our eyes to ever more sensitive clues the Holy Spirit speaks to us through friends and foes alike, as to what we can do if our will is to surrender to Your will. I especially thank these ladies who’ve endured negative talk, and talk from me they unforunately felt was disturbing or incomplete in understanding. So be it; if I ever actually understood the mind of a woman, there would be no more mystery left on earth and I’ll be ready for the Father to take me at His will.

Everyone on this thread, I’ll quit steping on your toes now, because as we did the “angry dance” you taught me how to speak your language a little better. At least I hope… Guess I’ll find out next time it’s tested.

Thanks again for putting up with me during this awkward growth experience. I apologize for any offenses, and want you to know that Jesus loves you just the way you are, not the way I think you should be. :tiphat:



Alan

 

[GraceDK]

I would guess that most mothers are happy that they were able to bear children and revel in their roles as mothers.

Actually, I was only responding to the men who responded in an arrogant/superior manner. There is a sprinkle of men (okay a drop or two) who are able to see where the OP is coming from. It doesn’t mean they disagree with the Church’s teaching, but they understand why someone of a feminine gender might feel that way.

I specifically chose not to address the women who chimed in with “Oh dear me… why do you feel that way?”

I understand that everyone does not experience things the same way, but I find the inability for some women to at least empathize with their sister the OP, a bit disturbing.

You put my thoughts much better than I can

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I would guess that most mothers are happy that they were able to bear children and revel in their roles as mothers.

That would have been my guess, too. I’m glad you have this opinion.

Actually, I was only responding to the men who responded in an arrogant/superior manner. There is a sprinkle of men (okay a drop or two) who are able to see where the OP is coming from. It doesn’t mean they disagree with the Church’s teaching, but they understand why someone of a feminine gender might feel that way.

Can you do me the honor of going through one more possibly pointless exercise to indulge me in trying to answer a mystery I think might help us communicate?

Here’s my question: before we conclude that the men are actually as arrogant at heart as they come across in words, let me be their defending attorney, at least for one round. Tell me what they said, exactly, and what you think it came across as. Please let me take a chance at finding common ground.

I think that some men are evil, condescending, presumtuous, abusive, oppressive, and everything terrible imaginable. I’m saying, though, that most men are instinctively driven to become what their loved ones wish they would be. If I see my wife looking at a guy in a movie and liking it, I want to have whatever he has so that my wife doesn’t have to rent the movie to have the spiritual experience.

Alan

I understand that everyone does not experience things the same way, but I find the inability for some women to at least empathize with their sister the OP, a bit disturbing.

I think different women are at different points in their ability to articulate their true intent. For the years we grew up, our speech was scolded if we didn’t say what those “in charge” thought we should say.

I offer you one more gift; consider someone I really admire his work, and his dedication to his wife. He called her during breaks in his performance. Please accept, if you will a view at the youtube video of Harry Chapin’s “Why do Little Girls.”

If you can listen to that song and still not understand whether I feel your pain, I invite you if you wish, to try to help me understand better.

Alan

 

[GraceDK]

Laides, I hate to tell you this, but I know you are only showing me love with your comments.

If you want to feel the love that men have for you, try communicating in a language they understnad – simplicity.

My wife gave me a lesson in this, this morning. I had to set a timer and shut my mouth for 15 minutes, during which she was allowed to talk, and so she did for the last 2 minutes.

Here’s what she said:
I woke up and nobody was here and i didn’t know where YOU were and thought maybe you were going manic AGAIN and nobody else was up in the house and I didn’t see your note until 40 minutes after you left and i have a terrible headahce and I just wanted to get up and have a GOOD day for a change and all I wanted was 15 minutes of quiet so I could say my prayers but then I didn’t get to do my prayer because … and now my headache is so bad it feels like I have FOUR EYES and … blah blah blah " well, you get the picture.

Now, ladies: consider being up front and honest with your man about your feelings, and maybe he’ll understand you. I strained my brain, but finally figured out what she was saying to me, in male lingo.

“I woke up and didn’t see you, so i wondered where you were. i didn’t see your note right away, and was frightened. I felt lonely because nobody else was up and you were gone. i felt separated, especially since I don’t know how you are feeling or whether you’re ok, because i don’t even know when to expect you home. I found your note, so thank goodness everything is OK. Also, I just am feeling a bit frustrated because when I am stressed and try to do the Right Thing by saying my prayers, I end up something happens and I can’t even spend a few minutes with God.”

Now, see if you can’t try talking to a man without hiding or faking your feelings, or expecting him to read your mind. I can be your first victim, if you wish to experiment in the area of bridging the male-female communication gap. This could be the “shot heard around the world.”

Alan

Cute post Alan.
Very psychological
You might already have left the thread, but the problem you speak about in your post is the same problem I had with the last posts of yours. I felt you were going of on a tangent, putting words into my mouth and… I basically thought you further complicated the points in question.

I just wanted to let you know that, so you dont wonder where my reply is.

 

[Stephen168]

I think perhaps some of the other women are upset that I and others have expressed that we are indeed very happy to bear children. And there’s also a false simplification of our roles that fits the straw-man argument. Nobody ever said “just be happy to bear children.” But that’s what’s being argued against, sadly.

Yes, it is a straw-man argument by saying we have engaged in the fallacy of composition, which comes from a lack of charity on their part.

I’m sure you have noticed that women who agree with the OP see men as a group, and women as another group, we are not individuals. And as I observed in high school girls, there is something wrong with you if you don’t conform to the sisterhood. Very painful for me to watch.

 

[Stephen168]

So, to answer my question, you’re suggesting that because women wanted the birth control pill to be covered under insurance, that they wanted to [act like / be] a man? Can you think of any more concrete examples. I feel like my question is being evaded in favour of drawing on your construction of penis envy.

If you review my post, I stated envy is a feeling not a behavior. It is a feeling expressed in words like the OP and women that equate viagra with women’s birth control. I’m not interesting in playing the ‘give me an example…OK, give me another example game;’ if you see that as an evasion of your tangent then so be it.

 

[GraceDK]

There aren’t girl altar servers because of any male dominating fixation. You know better than that. We “traditionalists” think there shouldn’t be girl altar servers because it is boys who need to be encouraged to join the priesthood. Having them partake in the Mass at the altar with the priest fosters such a vocation.

.

I don’t agree with you. I don’t think a duty to be alter server for a little kid makes him wanna be a priest. Those who want to be priests are the one’s who are taught to respect the priesthood (through meeting good priests), have a calling to it, and who have a personal relationship with Christ.

When I see girls serving at the alter it seems just right. The boys and girls are children, they are like angels in some ways. I like to see it because it also tells me that girls are as much appeciated in the church as are boys, and I want to teach children that equality.
If the church makes women feel unwelcome then the women will stop coming to church and then the mother’s who should tell their sons about the greatness of priesthood will not do so.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Cute post Alan.
Very psychological
You might already have left the thread, but the problem you speak about in your post is the same problem I had with the last posts of yours. I felt you were going of on a tangent, putting words into my mouth and… I basically thought you further complicated the points in question.

I just wanted to let you know that, so you dont wonder where my reply is.

You have made my day with this post, and before I read it, it was already the happiest day in my life! :dancing:

I’m doing the best I can to communicate. This is a mind dump, and pride keeps trying to wrestle my fingers away from the spirit and into my “male” ego for inspiration. If you want to know how much I believe we can sit back and chill and enjoy the ride in peace, try this on for size: I believe that even the misspelling, the misunderstandings, and even harsh or misleading words, are ALL under control by the Holy Spirit. Let him drive. Be compulsive obsess about spelling and grammar and edit your posts until it makes you leave it alone, like I often do. Or, just let it out there and leave it go, warts and all if that’s more the style of your “whim” (aka spirit moving in you) of the moment you click the “post” button. It’s all good, really. Musicians don’t go to concerts to hear a robot play music exactly as written, they want human passion in it. I will offer you one more musical gift, this time played by me on my own piano, a couple days ago. There are mistakes but I only did one take – so listen if you’d like. It’s entirely optional. It is “ashes” from our hymnal. I played all four verses in case you have the words and want to sing along. If you want me to post the lyrics, let me know. :harp:

BTW, of course the male ego and the female ego differ. “Male and female He created them.” :newidea:

That’s a mystery worth living forever to try to investigate.

Alan

 

[GraceDK]

You have made my day with this post, and before I read it, it was already the happiest day in my life! :dancing:

I’m doing the best I can to communicate. This is a mind dump, and pride keeps trying to wrestle my fingers away from the spirit and into my “male” ego for inspiration. If you want to know how much I believe we can sit back and chill and enjoy the ride in peace, try this on for size: I believe that even the misspelling, the misunderstandings, and even harsh or misleading words, are ALL under control by the Holy Spirit. Let him drive. Be compulsive obsess about spelling and grammar and edit your posts until it makes you leave it alone, like I often do. Or, just let it out there and leave it go, warts and all if that’s more the style of your “whim” (aka spirit moving in you) of the moment you click the “post” button. It’s all good, really. Musicians don’t go to concerts to hear a robot play music exactly as written, they want human passion in it. I will offer you one more musical gift, this time played by me on my own piano, a couple days ago. There are mistakes but I only did one take – so listen if you’d like. It’s entirely optional. It is “ashes” from our hymnal. I played all four verses in case you have the words and want to sing along. If you want me to post the lyrics, let me know. :harp:

BTW, of course the male ego and the female ego differ. “Male and female He created them.” :newidea:

That’s a mystery worth living forever to try to investigate.

Alan

This is the best day of your life?
Don’t use it here then… go buy your wife a rose… take her on a picnic in the park… Don’t waste your time here but go and live the real life.

I like your happiness, and thanks for sharing… Did you ever read the book: “Always give Thanks”… by Mervin something. You’d love it. It basically says that even a red light is not a coincidence…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

This is the best day of your life?
Don’t use it here then… go buy your wife a rose… take her on a picnic in the park… Don’t waste your time here but go and live the real life.

I like your happiness, and thanks for sharing… Did you ever read the book: “Always give Thanks”… by Mervin something. You’d love it. It basically says that even a red light is not a coincidence…

We’ve had a great sharing of spirits together today, unlike either of us could have dreamed of, yesterday. All it took was for me to hear what she was trying to say, once, after 25 wonderful years and six wonderful children. Now we can move into the “unitive” phase of our marriage, which transcends words and is unitive just if we are in the same room, or even in each others’ thoughts, as our spiritual director told us was the most mature intimacy – analgous to a contemplative unity with the Word. This I’ve been working for, since July 11, 2001. That’s the day I met my spiritual director for the first time. I needed help because the previous month, after an episode with the chruch that frightened me a gret deal – coincidentally I was doing voalunteer work in the bishops office – that a few hours later I was locked up against my will in a mental ward. I thought they treated me like an animal, a lab rat to observe with no real human exchange, but that experience has made me what I am today, and today my wife was able to join me in helping process it.

It is truly me best day. now, my wife is taking a nap. So I’m here posting until she gets up or until some other distraction is placed in my way by the Spirit. she thinks i’m going manic because i’m so excited it’s hard for me to sleep when i could be here exchanging love with strangers across the globe.

Peace and love, I wish you all the realization of your wildest dreams. :bible1:

Alan

 

[GraceDK]

she thinks i’m going manic because i’m so excited it’s hard for me to sleep when i could be here exchanging love with strangers across the globe.

Peace and love, I wish you all the realization of your wildest dreams. :bible1:

Alan

I hope your not going manic brother. we need more happy people in this world.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I hope your not going manic brother. we need more happy people in this world.

Not a chance. After all, I am completely open with my pastor and my psychiatrist about not only my actions, but my thoughts and feelings. They are both taking good care of me, each from their own angle of expertise. They are both astounded that we’ve risen above all medical expectations. Thank you so much for the concern. I can’t tell you how beautiful a totally crazy mind can be, or a totally ordered mind, unless you’ve had both. To a man, a women is marvelous, a challenge, unpredictable and follows no apparent rational formula. This is how we view women, like a wonderfully mysterious and beautiful fractal:
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I wonder, though, if sometimes men don’t come across as if we expect you to be smooth, controlled, predictable and reliably repeatable, uninteresting but following a “well behaved” mathematical function.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Which one do you find more beautiful? Are you looking for a mystery, or for an employee? I rest my case.

You women were great. Without these discussion, I would never have been equipped to interpret my wife’s words in the way that I did, and this day would have been great but not paradigm-shattering! My great day was clearly a group effort. I will remember your spirits, if not your screen names, forever. :thankyou:

Alan

 

[TrueLight]

To a man, a women is marvelous, a challenge, unpredictable and follows no apparent rational formula. This is how we view women, like a wonderfully mysterious and beautiful fractal:

Alan

The first one is more beautiful.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I am beautiful, mysterious AND rational.

In the same way that there are men who are sensitive, there are also women who carry traditionally masculine and female traits. We are all unique.

 

[Victorious]

You just made my point.
The experience of the OP is not recognized as valid by you so you totally avoid the core problematic and ridicule it instead. I wonder if you think thats going to change the situation for the better?

Utter nonsense doesn’t deserve to be engaged. Giving it the response that it is due does change the situation for the better, because it serves truth.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The first one is more beautiful.

I appreciate your thoughts, but I am beautiful, mysterious AND rational.

In the same way that there are men who are sensitive, there are also women who carry traditionally masculine and female traits. We are all unique.

Thank you. In my mind, you really live up to your screen name.

Since my second grade teacher tried to force me to lie in front of the class, to conform to her limited knowledge, I’ve been looking for resolution to every thing wrong about every teacher, parent, and authority. Right now I feel at perfect peace with all of that, and as of yesterday when my eyes first started to open, I realize that I no more wish to rewrite any iota of my personal history, any more than I would try to design my own woman.

You are surely beautiful, even as all women are beautiful, but as individual as snowflakes. (Can you tell I watched Don Jaun, with Johnny Depp?)

I pray you enjoy all the fruit of the Spirit.

Alan

 

[Kleftiko]

If you review my post, I stated envy is a feeling not a behavior. It is a feeling expressed in words like the OP and women that equate viagra with women’s birth control. I’m not interesting in playing the ‘give me an example…OK, give me another example game;’ if you see that as an evasion of your tangent then so be it.

I understand the frustration, but you persist in waxing abstractly about things I want concrete examples of. Envy is an abstraction–a feeling, as you’ve said. It’s not behaviour, as I’ve requested. I was just asking whether you thought a woman wanting insurance to cover the birth control pill was too lofty a request; too close to what men are allowed to claim on their insurance; too much like wanting to be like a man?

“Women are just envious” is not an example; it’s your constructed explanation
“The first post [is an example of how a woman wants to be like a man]” If it is, then tell me in what way.

I asked you to be specific, and you refuse. I’m sorry if you don’t like the game of defending your point, but you haven’t yet done so. You see where I’m coming from.

 

[Kleftiko]

You have made my day with this post, and before I read it, it was already the happiest day in my life! :dancing:

I’m doing the best I can to communicate. This is a mind dump, and pride keeps trying to wrestle my fingers away from the spirit and into my “male” ego for inspiration. If you want to know how much I believe we can sit back and chill and enjoy the ride in peace, try this on for size: I believe that even the misspelling, the misunderstandings, and even harsh or misleading words, are ALL under control by the Holy Spirit. Let him drive. Be compulsive obsess about spelling and grammar and edit your posts until it makes you leave it alone, like I often do. Or, just let it out there and leave it go, warts and all if that’s more the style of your “whim” (aka spirit moving in you) of the moment you click the “post” button. It’s all good, really. Musicians don’t go to concerts to hear a robot play music exactly as written, they want human passion in it. I will offer you one more musical gift, this time played by me on my own piano, a couple days ago. There are mistakes but I only did one take – so listen if you’d like. It’s entirely optional. It is “ashes” from our hymnal. I played all four verses in case you have the words and want to sing along. If you want me to post the lyrics, let me know. :harp:

BTW, of course the male ego and the female ego differ. “Male and female He created them.” :newidea:

That’s a mystery worth living forever to try to investigate.

Alan

Impressive turnaround, Alan. You’re a credit to your faith!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Impressive turnaround, Alan. You’re a credit to your faith!

Thank you very much.

That said, all I had to do was yield, and pretend that every single poster was doing it with no motive other than pure love – even though it may have appeared otherwise to those who are still under the law – waiting to be reborn of the Spirit at the option and time God chooses.

Look what happened. In the past three days I have changed, but like I said, I just allowed you ladies to keep talking in your own language until I could recognize a pattern in the code that I could decode into words I understood. It took many examples of confusing patterns from all of you, and to the non-engineer they all sounded pretty random. But a little data mining and we could extract the message from the noise. I would not be where I am in my life or with my wife if any detail of my past changed, so it’s truly all good. That’s what I call surrender.

So yeah, who’s to say that when many spirits get together that one was more important than the other? You just don’t know, because we cant see spirits with our earthly eyes. :bible1:

Alan

 

[ConstantineTG]

It’s interesting you see your efforts as so futile. I would consider this “powerless[ness]” (as you describe it) as a personal thing and not a collective experience held by all men. Nor are all mothers so lucky as to magically sooth their disconsolate infant with a mere hug.

Mothers are always closer to their children. There are exceptions of course, but thats the general rule. No man can compare to the bond a mother and an infant has, especially with the 9 months in the womb and breastfeeding. Its inherent with all mothers and their child, and if its not there then it was the fault of the mother for breaking that bond.

 

[FNDRB58]

To acquiesce is to submit or accede without protest (i.e., unquestioningly). You still have th job of showing that this is equal. And again, I will insert another social category for comparison: “Blacks, acquiesece to the desires of whites. Mind you, your voice will still be respected in the process, but you should probably give in to keep the peace.”

You previously made the assertion that because the Bible says “wives submit to your husbands” that we still have to reconcile this phrase so it doesn’t demean today’s woman.

You asked what meanings “submit” meant if not other than complete submission. I gave you the strict meaning and I gave you a few others as well. It hasn’t been my assertion that acquiescing in every instance is equal. I explained that “wives submit to your husbands” could have meant different things but most likely meant so in the strictest form due to the society of that time which already held women in less the high regard.

Again, it wasn’t equal during the time it was written just as, “slaves, obey your master” wasn’t equal but was applicable to that time. We certainly don’t condone slavery today.

We are equal in dignity but not equal in function. That was God’s plan. You are hung up on the fact that we humans need everything to be “equal”; this is a human endeavor, not a Godly endeavor. God obviously made the male to be the physically dominating gender. If we are supposed to be “equal” by human standards then you must ask the same question of God as to why He did not foster equality by this “physical advantage” He gave to men and not to women.