What if you were not raised christian? Would it make sence?

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I remember thinking about this a lot during several periods in my life. I don’t have an answer. I don’t think we are meant to have it in some intellectual, rational way because our thinking is not like God’s.

I grew up in a communist country and without religion. I knew that churches were holy places for some people but that was it. On seldom occasionas that I went with my grandma (maybe once every other year or so) and I remember being scared of the crucifix but feeling the attraction to church, feeling something there. I knew that I wanted to become a Christian when I grew up because of that strong attraction. So I did when I was 16.

Now, my brother never liked church and never felt anything. He was baptised the same year as me, but because our mom thought he should ‘get it done’. He still believs that faith and belonging to a particular religion is completely random and is determined by social/cultural context.
I am one of those people who claim that you just know in your heart that Jesus Christ is God. It’s like being in love. others can describe it to us and we can have an idea of what it is like to be in love, but it is not enough. When you are in love -you know it. The same with Christ. You kind of ‘know’, but that knowledge is beyond words.

I realise that some could now say that I am somehow predisposed to be religious, and that Christianity was accidental. But the thing is, one can’t prove it either way.

I

 

[excaliber]

Like you, I chose not to pollute my mind with drugs. I read many conversion stories about people who did drugs and their lives spiraled out of control and then they decided to embrace God, after realizing the enormity of their actions and lack of control.
But, I can not relate to that kind of experience personally. So, it is hard for me to see what it is that all clicked together for those who did.
What you say about why it is hard for you to find God, is giving me a lot more to consider.
You sound **Found **to me.
Maybe it is the ideas men have about God that is hardest of all, and perhaps not God that is so hard to know.

Interesting that we seem to be on the same page so often. I have no problem saying what I feel.

The number one thing that dosent make sence in Christianity, is the
belief that God is soooooo loving.
I mean realy, not until Christianity
shows up is this the case.

Nation of Isreal obviously was war
like. Muslims and Jew’s will go on trying to kill each other till the end of time…and they have the same
God!!!

Read about the temple in scripture, If the priest did this wrong he died on the spot, if that was put on the alter wrong your dead.

Stop me when this sounds loving.

Why is it we don’t know the EXACT pronouncement of God’s name? Isn’t it because they were
so afraid that they would use it wrong and be PUNISHED…that they stoped using it regularly.
Someone forgot to tell them that
God loved them to the extreme that Christians believe.

I have seen Jewish boards, they
are not very concerned with love.
Its there Jewish and matter to God
and your not Jewish, that there trying to tell you.

After Judaism and Christianity came, the way we view God changed dramatically. By the way
I spoke to a Jew on here, and they
just don’t care that much.

But Judaism’s view of God makes more sence. The type of person who would walk his own people through a wilderness untill a hole
generation died of because he was
mad at them. Moses got irritated
once and has to climb a mountain
to die. That matches what we see
today.

If Judaism is correct it would make
sence that God is probably waiting for a great Isrealite military leader
to execute the muslims and take
the land. And probably is just not that concerned with anyone not connected with Jew’s.

Now dosent it make sence that
Gods chosen people are doing what they always did…killing people for there land.

Or mabey muslims are right…well
eather way, people are gona die
over holy land.

But Christianity sounds so much
nicer, just not consistent with God
in the past.

 

[survive]

I spent my life testing belief systems empirically and examining them for descriptive and predicitve records in my life and others, and for basic consistency. I’m writing the story as a book – it is far too long for all my posts here in the past two years to graze the surface of what I have been seeing happen. The results are:
There is a God.
God is conscious and moral and has a plan for each person.
Bad things exist.
God means to do away with bad things and increase good things.
His means of doing so is inspiration, guidance, a law in our hearts, indirect intervention, and rarely direct and dramatic intervention (miracles).
He draws people to increasing levels of truth, and lets them respond as much or as little as they want to. He draws people more obviously who need more obviousness, such as myself, but draws more astute peopel more gently. It is always up to the individual to follow or not.
People can mislead one another. God warns us to be careful about that.
Some of us fall many times into error or sin or both yet eventually make it to God.
Yeshu’a the Nazarene in the First Century lived and died and has a better claim on resurrection and Messiahship than all the other candidates and claimants and heroes everywhere put together, real and imaginary. And he is real. He is the only Way to God and He is God.
He told the truth and His student-followers told the truth about what He said. Copyists were highly trained and well-motivated to record faithfully what He said and did. Thus, the New Testament is true.
The New Testament quotes as truth many parts of the already-compiled and canonical Old Testament. Thus, the Old Testament is true in all matters relating to spirituality, morality and the nature of God, and of reality and of humanity and the soul and the correct attitude, and is also a fairly accurate broad view of history but condensed in parts to suit the symbolic numerical and literary structures of the culture through which God has especially spoken.
God is merciful. He is also Truth and values Truth very highly. He commands us to teach truth especially about Him. But those who have not been reached with the facts sometimes receive the facts through revelation, sometimes through reason, and sometimes God allows them to know just enough to leave this world as lovers of truth, charity, chastity and reverence for a Creator they know little about, and accepts them according to their deeds and desires. We don’t get to set the grading scale, and we are not allowed to presume on God’s mercy for ourselves or anyone else, nor to deny God’s mercy might extend to any particular person. Therefore we have a rsponsibility to preach to all, using the particular gifts we personally have. For some, setting a good example is their strong suit. For others, reasoning aloud. For others, emotional persuasion. For others, collecting evidence.
Jesus Christ did not leave us on our own to guess how to interpret the Bible. He stayed with us in many ways, one being a Church (Ecclesia; meeting; translated to church, from kirk, Old English; house), and promised it would stand for all time without falling into error.
I could find no other church that fit the description. I tried to for years.
Oh, and I was raised in a very strongly anti-Christian environment, and had to fight for every opportunity to learn about religion or spiritual beliefs.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I agree that the way people saw God if they were a Hebrew/Jew was much different before Christ.
This leads me to ask so many more questions. Christians say that God chose to reveal himself slowly, and in stages until the final moment on the Cross and even then, it took time to sink in even for the faithful.
I have so many questions about the whole thing excalibur. I read about God allowing polygamy because of the “hardheartedness” of the people at that time. That bothers me a little. I mean, God can’t simply say you must follow this rule on marriage and leave it there? But he can load them down with a zillion other rules that they follow that seem even harder to follow than simply finding one partner for life?
I know I will get bomarded with objections to what I said, and I have read the rebuttals to questions like this before, but it never makes sense to me.
Sorry to vent like that, but I just really wish God had made things clearer from the very start.
Muslims get treated rather poorly I noticed, on this site. I think they are due more respect considering the scriptures and the call Jesus made to love as he did.
They are believers in God after all.

Hagar was given a promise by God. And, I don’t know if it is wise to taunt muslims when it was God who promised her what he did according to the scriptures.

But, those scriptures also talk about the lineage being of a “wild” type… And like you, I do not like war of any kind. Especially odd, is war amoung belivers to me.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Interesting that we seem to be on the same page so often. I have no problem saying what I feel.

The number one thing that dosent make sence in Christianity, is the
belief that God is soooooo loving.
I mean realy, not until Christianity
shows up is this the case.

You’re partially correct in this, except that the light, love, flowers, and hippies Jesus is a strictly protestant idea that came about a ways after the reformation. God has always in the catholic Tradition been a powerful, just, awesome, and vengeful God, but always also tempered with humility(How else do you get the incarnation?), mercy, fatherliness, and love. God didn’t change one iota from the old covenants* to the new, what did change (and drastically,) was the relationship between god and man.

Nation of Isreal obviously was war
like. Muslims and Jew’s will go on trying to kill each other till the end of time…and they have the same
God!!!

Read about the temple in scripture, If the priest did this wrong he died on the spot, if that was put on the alter wrong your dead.

Stop me when this sounds loving.

Why is it we don’t know the EXACT pronouncement of God’s name? Isn’t it because they were
so afraid that they would use it wrong and be PUNISHED…that they stoped using it regularly.
Someone forgot to tell them that
God loved them to the extreme that Christians believe.

They don’t use gods name for the same reason they will only write out G-d, there is believed by many cultures to be enormous power, authority, and dignity in ones name, to write or speak aloud gives it a physical manifestation and so may be tarnished or used for blasphemy this violation of dignity would cause punishment, but it was out of respect more than fear that they remove the vowels or just say Lord,The Almighty, The Most High, etc. Also god is infinitely loving as well as infinitely just, most religious Hebrews would agree.

“For You, Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call on You.”
-Psalm 86.5 The New Jewish Publication Society (JPS) Translation 2nd ed.

I have seen Jewish boards, they
are not very concerned with love.
Its there Jewish and matter to God
and your not Jewish, that there trying to tell you.

I think your placing them in an uncharitable light seeing as how they believe that righteousness is the goal of life and you need not be jewish to achieve this. In fact if you wish to convert to the Hebrew People (more than a religion and definitely not a race.) the leader of the community is required to approach you three times to try and talk you out of it, not as a test but because it is unnecessary to their beliefs that you become jewish to be righteous.

After Judaism and Christianity came, the way we view God changed dramatically. By the way
I spoke to a Jew on here, and they
just don’t care that much.

But Judaism’s view of God makes more sence. The type of person who would walk his own people through a wilderness untill a hole
generation died of because he was
mad at them. Moses got irritated
once and has to climb a mountain
to die. That matches what we see
today.

Clearly our relationship changed, his infinite love motivated him to make an infinite sacrifice, satisfying his infinite justice so now the way is open, the ONLY thing standing between us and heaven is our choice,
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day:I have put before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life - if you and your offspring would live-”
Deuteronomy 30.19 New JPS Translation 2nd ed.
The blessing of this new covenant is Heaven and in proportion the curse is Hell.

If Judaism is correct it would make
sence that God is probably waiting for a great Isrealite military leader
to execute the muslims and take
the land. And probably is just not that concerned with anyone not connected with Jew’s.

Now dosent it make sence that
Gods chosen people are doing what they always did…killing people for there land.

Or mabey muslims are right…well
eather way, people are gona die
over holy land.

But Christianity sounds so much
nicer, just not consistent with God
in the past.

You seem to misunderstand covenants past as well as the present, they were a light to the gentiles. yes god cared for the Israelites, and so gave them a land and his covenant, but he cared greatly for all mankind, read through the old testament and you will see this clearly. Also as I said many people now try to emphasize gods love and mercy to the point that they (Wrongly) deny his other aspects.

Pax Te Cum, brother.

P.S. Apologies for grammar its 2:30 AM and well past my bedtime. XD

*Yes there are multiple, off the top of my head there are Adamic, Noahite, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic, in that order.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Why is that a problem? Christians believe what Jesus said about God, right? His teaching was considered very controversial and offensive to the Jews precisely because it was radical in so many ways and challenged the established theology.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Lets gather what we KNOW to be fact. We were created, humans and the planet is far far to complex and well designed. Anyone with the knowledge and power to design us is worthy of the title God.

Did God want us to continue on alone, or try to contact him in some way? Lets just use pure logic
…we were made capable of talking to each other, but not made capable of comunicating
in the same way with God.

In fact if knowone told you that closing your eyes and praying was
comunicating, you would have logicaly concluded that God left you know way to contact him.

It’s worth pointing out that there are no civilizations ever in history without religion. The Desire to know love and serve god is innate in all humanity, and prayer is equally universal.

If knowone told you that reading a book like bible or koran was like comunicating with God, the idea would never have come to you, and you would have concluded that God had never spoken with you directly in your life and therefore was not interested in contacting you eather.

Well I have had the benefit of having had direct contact with both God and the enemy, so I have first hand knowledge, but failing that you could accept the bible as an uninspired 2nd hand account of divine revelation.

Even if you could contact him, what could you tell him that he would care to hear, he is far more
inteligent then us.

No one has made any claim that I’m aware of that God needs something from us, and if he did he wouldn’t be infinite therefore he wouldn’t be god. However he did decide to create us. So if it’s not for his benefit then it seems reasonable that it’s for ours, that he created us out of love for us, that we might know love and serve him in eternal happiness.

If you could forget everything other people told you to believe.
And just use your own experience,
what would you say our purpose
was?

Well I would still have access to natural theology so i would know of gods existence, his intelligence, his personal and infinite nature, and that he wanted us to contact him as he gave us both the means and desire. So i would be on the lookout for divine revelation or reports of it.

Entertainment? Like our pets are to us? Its a logical conclusion.

Perhaps it is a logical conclusion, but I wouldn’t know as you haven’t shown your logic*. Personally however I doubt it as God has no need for entertainment, as he is by definition totally self sufficient in all things.

Now ofcourse Christianity sounds
waaaay bettter. God loving you
more then you could possibly know, sounds better then any other story I can think of. But must
be believed by faith, because logic
asks…why would God love you that much? There is nothing you can give him…we can’t even give
inteligent conversation. If God dose love us, he dosent have much reason to.

Being Infinite he loves all infinitely, and that includes us. Unlike angels we are temporal (in time) beings and so can change, so unlike demons (fallen Angels) we can be redeemed.

He could have put us here, and said " I will go and make other worlds and come back and check
on earth in a million years or so".

No he couldn’t, he’s omniscient.

Sounds out there but it would explain the obvious design of mankind and obvious lack of plain comunication.

As pointed out earlier prayer is instinctive to us, I know this from personal experience from before I became religious, as well as from cultural anthropology.

I’m wondering, is your point that our paradigms are shaped by our experiences and relationships? If so i would have to agree, however, if you’re saying that our faith makes sense only subjectively then I am forced to disagree.What I’m saying that our faith is partially rational,(directly rising or supportable by reason) partially nonrational,(Not directly rising or supportable by reason) and never irrational,(Contrary to reason) so it makes sense objectively as well as subjectively.

Pax te cum.

*The proper format for a logical argument is in terms, propositions, and conclusions.

 

[jpk1313]

When the church came to pagan countries they did not know anything about jesus yet they converted why? Becuse Jesus is the truth and any who have heard the gosple but reject it it is becuse they do not understant it has not been explained properly to them. when you hear the truth you will know it is the truth becuse it is the truth.

 

[happygal]

Ghandi wasn’t raised Christian but when he entered a Catholic cathedral in some European country, he felt the Real Presence (just didn’t put it in those words… but he was respectful…)…

Looking at a crucifix is far different in His Real Presence than … in some other… place…

Ghandi was indeed someone with great wisdom and understanding in ruling his nation of his time, sometime i wonder why wasn’t he’s a Christ believer. He made a power quote " the weak will never forgive, forgiveness is an attribute for the strong" after reading the bible!!!
cool man!!!

 

[StrawberryJam]

When the church came to pagan countries they did not know anything about jesus yet they converted why? Becuse Jesus is the truth and any who have heard the gosple but reject it it is becuse they do not understant it has not been explained properly to them. when you hear the truth you will know it is the truth becuse it is the truth.

Not sure you want to tout that one. Forced conversions come to mind.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Ghandi was indeed someone with great wisdom and understanding in ruling his nation of his time, sometime i wonder why wasn’t he’s a Christ believer. He made a power quote " the weak will never forgive, forgiveness is an attribute for the strong" after reading the bible!!!
cool man!!!

That’s interesting! Do you have a citation for that? Because the one I keep thinking of is how he liked Christ, but did not like Christians…