What if your Bishop is a Heretic?

[Jaypeeto2]

I can’t believe some of the smart-asp responses I got. All I asked was what to do IF our bishop is a heretic. I am not a Rad-Trad, and I attend what the traditionalists call a “Novus Ordo” parish and am quite happy there. Incidentally, I see no evidence of heresy on the part of the Archbishop of the Archdiocese in which I reside.
I HAVE, however, encountered heretical priests, even in the confessional. One had the gall to counsel me to COMMIT what the church teaches is sexually immoral. When I disagreed with him, he stuck to his guns and spoke defiantly of the church and it’s teachings. Seeing him as a menace, I wrote to the archbishop here and gave him his name and told him what this visiting priest was telling people to do. Not long after, the archbishop revoked his faculties to preach in our archdiocese and he was given the boot by the archbishop, thank God. Jaypeeto2

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Jaypeeto2:

I can’t believe some of the smart-asp responses I got. All I asked was what to do IF our bishop is a heretic. I am not a Rad-Trad, and I attend what the traditionalists call a “Novus Ordo” parish and am quite happy there. Incidentally, I see no evidence of heresy on the part of the Archbishop of the Archdiocese in which I reside.
I HAVE, however, encountered heretical priests, even in the confessional. One had the gall to counsel me to COMMIT what the church teaches is sexually immoral. When I disagreed with him, he stuck to his guns and spoke defiantly of the church and it’s teachings. Seeing him as a menace, I wrote to the archbishop here and gave him his name and told him what this visiting priest was telling people to do. Not long after, the archbishop revoked his faculties to preach in our archdiocese and he was given the boot by the archbishop, thank God. Jaypeeto2

I gave you a solution. Write to you bishop, if that does not get a response then right to the papal nuncio, if that does not get a response, then write to Rome. Contact a canon lawyer for assistance.

Other than that what you do what? Individual laity are not competent to make the charge of heresy, only the Church is.

Seems to me that you are getting upset becuase you are not getting the response you were looking for.

 

[space_ghost]

…totally new concept… how about prayer… pray for your church, pope, bishop, priest and congregation… if he is indeed a heretic, i’m sure Rome is aware, and the best advice i can give you is to submit your request to the head man…GOD!

…be not afraid, the gates of hell will not prevail, but they never said hell wouldn’t try…

Peace:thumbsup:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Jaypeeto2:

I can’t believe some of the smart-asp responses I got. All I asked was what to do IF our bishop is a heretic. I am not a Rad-Trad, and I attend what the traditionalists call a “Novus Ordo” parish and am quite happy there. Incidentally, I see no evidence of heresy on the part of the Archbishop of the Archdiocese in which I reside.
I HAVE, however, encountered heretical priests, even in the confessional. One had the gall to counsel me to COMMIT what the church teaches is sexually immoral. When I disagreed with him, he stuck to his guns and spoke defiantly of the church and it’s teachings. Seeing him as a menace, I wrote to the archbishop here and gave him his name and told him what this visiting priest was telling people to do. Not long after, the archbishop revoked his faculties to preach in our archdiocese and he was given the boot by the archbishop, thank God. Jaypeeto2

This type of thing has happened to me as well in the confessional, so you have my sympathy.

It is still, however, a serious thing to accuse anyone of heresy. You were the one who brought up “a famous archbishop in southern California.” You also came to conclusions, based on photos and a conference held in his diocese, that Rome might or might not agree with. There is line between heresy and laxity or laziness or sheer stubborn self-will. The posters here who questioned you wanted to know what else you knew. Has he suggested that the Immaculate Conception didn’t occur? Has he denied the Resurection? That’s all. I think you’ll also find next to no one here who is a fan of that bishop or his ugly cathedral or his little conferences or the gyrations of liturgical dance that surround him. The point would be that he might be stubbornly obstinate, but unless you can provide evidence that he’s denied the faith, heretical might be taking it too far. If you do know of something, then something should be done. No shepherd should be permitted to lead his flock into error. I don’t think anyone was giving you a “smart asp” reply. Sorry if you felt the opposite.

 

[Jaypeeto2]

To: JKirk
I appreciate your comments. Thanks.
I thought it was particularly smart-asp for one of the posters to assume that I was a “traditionalist” with all it’s rad-trad connotations.
Best, Jaypeeto2

 

[Brendan]

JKirkLVNV:

Do you mean that he has denied papal infallibility? Have you a source for this information?

I said “Authority” not Infallibility

His refusal to implement the GIRM, or more specifically, granting an ‘Indult’ to concecrate the wine in a flagon shows an implicit denial of the Doctrine of Papal Authority articulated in Vatican I

“When, therefore, anyone says that the Pope of Rome has only the office of supervision or of guidance, and not the complete and highest power of jurisdiction over the entire Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in matters which concern the discipline and administration of the Church throughout the entire world, or that the pope has only the chief share, but not the entire fullness of this highest power, or that this his power is not actual and immediate either over all and individual Churches, or over all and individual clergy and faithful, let him be anathema.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Brendan:

His refusal to implement the GIRM, or more specifically, granting an ‘Indult’ to concecrate the wine in a flagon shows an implicit denial of the Doctrine of Papal Authority articulated in Vatican I

But Brendan, are we, the laity, the competent authority to judge this as heresy?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

usqueadmortem:

Here I limit the definition of Modernism to that part which is specifically theological. It has political, and social manifestations as well.

Negetively speaking, Modernism is founded upon the philosophical system of agnosticism. In agnosticism, all knowledge is received through experience or is empirical. Agnosticism thus undermines the foundation of natural theology (that part of philosophy concerned with God) and of Revelation.

Positively speaking, Modernism is founded upon the system of vital immanance. For vital immanance, all religious experience is a product of the sentiments of man. The chief Modernist axiom is that Revelation is a product of this vital immanance, and is subject to a constant evolution or improvement.

The terrible danger of Modernism is its apparant obedience to the infallible dictates of the Magisterium, but its subtle distortion of the constantly received interpretation of Catholic Dogma.

The most devestating effects of Modernism in the early twentieth century were felt in France and Italy. Some of the best known modernists are Alfred Loisy, George Tyrrell, Maurice Blondel and Henri de Lubac. But one must recognize that after its suppression under Pius X - Pius XII, it has returned with avengence.

Usque.

ZING! I tip my lid to your eloquence and even more to your charity and patience in not being baited. :tiphat:

Do you suppose there will be an apology forthcoming?

 

[otm]

Brendan:

Like maybe dening the Supreme Authority of the Pontif as articulated by Vatican I?

No, that is not considered denying the authority of the Pope. It is considered ignoring it. Being disobedient is not heresy.

 

[robertaf]

rwoehmke:

How about studying up on the sins of “Rash Judgement”, “Slander”, or “Calumny”, perhaps “False Witness.”

Excellent!
Since when, in the Church has lay folks decided what is heresy???
We might have our doubts about certain things but we are lacking the authority to decide what is heresy.

I am a former Southern Californian and have met, written and received letters from Cardinal Mahoney. I have attended his Masses, heard his homilies and have nothing but the deepest love and respect for him. He is a deeply Spiritual man, whether you believe it or not.

Do I lean in the same direction he does? Maybe not. So what???
Who says you must.
St Paul did not lean in the same direction St Peter did.
For many years, Mother Angelica, the hero to many was a Catholic Charismatic. Later she denied any association with the Charismatic Renewal.

What makes a good Catholic??? What makes a heretic?

The usual answer is " A good Catholic is anyone who agrees with ME!" a heretic is anyone who disagrees with ME.

 

[usqueadmortem]

robertaf:

Excellent!
Since when, in the Church has lay folks decided what is heresy???
We might have our doubts about certain things but we are lacking the authority to decide what is heresy.

I am a former Southern Californian and have met, written and received letters from Cardinal Mahoney. I have attended his Masses, heard his homilies and have nothing but the deepest love and respect for him. He is a deeply Spiritual man, whether you believe it or not.

Do I lean in the same direction he does? Maybe not. So what???
Who says you must.
St Paul did not lean in the same direction St Peter did.
For many years, Mother Angelica, the hero to many was a Catholic Charismatic. Later she denied any association with the Charismatic Renewal.

What makes a good Catholic??? What makes a heretic?

The usual answer is " A good Catholic is anyone who agrees with ME!" a heretic is anyone who disagrees with ME.

What is the deal with Cardinal Mahoney’s Cathedral?

Usque.

 

[TNT]

ByzCath:

But Brendan, are we, the laity, the competent authority to judge this as heresy?

If one who knows ones Catholic Faith is incompetent to judge a heresy, then by the same token, one woud never be responsible for following a heresy or a heretic.

All virtues such as obedience are subordinate the superior virtues of Faith Hope and Charity. If obedience, which normally supports the virtues of Faith and Charity, would lead to harming the practice of those virtues, especially Faith, then obedience would be a sin against the Theological virtue.

 

[robertaf]

usqueadmortem:

What is the deal with Cardinal Mahoney’s Cathedral?

Usque.

What do you mean Cardinal Mahoney’s Cathedral? What kind of question is that? And how would I know?

Is that like asking, “what is the deal with Pope Benedicts XVI’s, St Peters”???

Frankly, I do not understand your question.

If you are asking me what I think of the Cathedral, would ask you if you have any idea what the Archdiocese of Los Angeles requires? Can you conceive of it’s size?
Most of all, I would ask you if it is your home arcdiocese. If it is not, why do you care? If it is, I think you know what the deal is.

 

[FenianMan]

ByzCath:

But Brendan, are we, the laity, the competent authority to judge this as heresy?

Orders doesn’t suddenly enable one to judge what is or is not heretical. As has already been noted, Nestorius was a material heretic before being declared so formally and his people recognized him as such. The problem is not with lay people being unable to identify certain heresies. In point of fact, if a lay person is properly educated and can’t identify specific heresies in the writings of someone like, say, Deepak Chopra or John Spong, then there’s a serious problem. The issue here seems to be an unbelievably wide application of the term “heresy.” “Disobedience” does not equal “heresy.” Should the cardinal be using flagons? No. Is it silly? Yes. Does that implicitly deny the supreme authority of the Roman Pontiff? No more than a child misbehaving while his parents are away is denying the absolute authority of his parents in the house. The answer, as has already been noted, is to pray for him.

 

[jennstall]

usqueadmortem:

What is the deal with Cardinal Mahoney’s Cathedral?

Usque.

Am I the only one on the planet who likes the L.A. Cathedral?

Granted, the outside isn’t the prettiest thing I’ve ever seen, but I find the inside quite inspiring. The tapestries and artwork are amazing and the room is full of God’s glorious light! I spend time at the Blessed Sacrament chapel when I can because it is so serene and peaceful there during the day. I wish I could visit every day.

 

[usqueadmortem]

jennstall:

Am I the only one on the planet who likes the L.A. Cathedral?

LOL, I think so…

jennstall:

I spend time at the Blessed Sacrament chapel when I can because it is so serene and peaceful there during the day. I wish I could visit every day.

I am not gonna argue with that.

Though, I would like to point out that the outside has no roots in Catholic architecture.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

TNT:

If one who knows ones Catholic Faith is incompetent to judge a heresy, then by the same token, one woud never be responsible for following a heresy or a heretic.

We are competent to judge if a teaching is in line with what the Church Teaches. We are not competent to call anyone a heretic as that is an offical prounoucement from the Church which carries certain punishment that is outside of our bounds to apply.

FenianMan:

Orders doesn’t suddenly enable one to judge what is or is not heretical.

Correct, orders do not grant this, it is the Magistirum that has this power. Only the Church can convict (for lack of a better word) an individual of heresy and brand them a heretic.

We can judge individual teachings against Church Teachings.

And as pointed out by otm, disobedience is not heresy. Also, the architecture of a Church, even a Cathedral, is not a heresy.

It seems many love to throw this word out when they disagree with a hierarch as a way to not have to follow anything they say.

Just because one disagrees with their bishop does not give them the right to be disobedient to them, even if they are disobedient to their own superiors.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

FenianMan:

The issue here seems to be an unbelievably wide application of the term "heresy." “Disobedience” does not equal “heresy.” Should the cardinal be using flagons? No. Is it silly? Yes. Does that implicitly deny the supreme authority of the Roman Pontiff? No more than a child misbehaving while his parents are away is denying the absolute authority of his parents in the house. The answer, as has already been noted, is to pray for him.

Very, very well put! You articulated what some of the rest of us evidently had difficulty saying. I will remember “unbelievably wide application of the term ‘heresy.’”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

robertaf:

What do you mean Cardinal Mahoney’s Cathedral? What kind of question is that? And how would I know?

Is that like asking, “what is the deal with Pope Benedicts XVI’s, St Peters”???

Frankly, I do not understand your question.

If you are asking me what I think of the Cathedral, would ask you if you have any idea what the Archdiocese of Los Angeles requires? Can you conceive of it’s size?
Most of all, I would ask you if it is your home arcdiocese. If it is not, why do you care? If it is, I think you know what the deal is.

I think the poster may have been referring to something I said in an earlier post. I commented on the ugly cathedral Cardinal Mahony built. I freely admit that my observations about it are entirely subjective. I mentioned it in the context of “I don’t like it, but it doesn’t make Cardinal Mahony a heretic.” The “Rog Mahal” is often mentioned in these forums as an excellent example of what the Church should avoid in terms of architecture and decor for the setting of the Holy Liturgy of the Mass. Also, many people on these forums are directly subject to the Cardinal and loath the Cathedral (that’s were I picked up the term “Rog Mahal”) and he is, if not exactly my bishop, then at least my metropolitan archbishop, so I will feel free to comment on his ugly edifice.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Whoops, just found out our metropolitan is the Archbishop of San Francisco. Well, the LA Cathedral is still ugly, but then so is ours here in Las Vegas.