What if your Bishop is a Heretic?

[usqueadmortem]

And it isn’t just a question of being ugly. It is important for every Catholic church to be built upon sound architectural principles. St. Robert Bellarmine enunciated elaborate specifications from which architects should work.

We actually have a whole reservoir of Catholic architectural styles. Is there room for developing styles? Absolutely! But the development must be organic!

 

[otm]

usqueadmortem:

LOL, I think so…

I am not gonna argue with that.

Though, I would like to point out that the outside has no roots in Catholic architecture.

You are walking on thin ice when you refer to “Catholic architecture”. I don’t believe there is such a category; further, there are a number of Protestant churches, particularly older ones, which look an awful lot like Catholic churches.

 

[KBarn]

I think the question is a good one. Jaypeeto asked an interesting hypothetical. Can we control our own pride enough to suspend our attacks on him? I will ask the question.

Let’s posit that a bishop denies or doubts an article of the faith and falls into heresy. What should a catholic in his diocese do?

 

[SnorterLuster]

otm:

You are walking on thin ice when you refer to “Catholic architecture”. I don’t believe there is such a category; further, there are a number of Protestant churches, particularly older ones, which look an awful lot like Catholic churches.

I don’t know about that.

*Just as to do Catholic theology means to learn from the past, so to design Catholic architecture is to be inspired and even quote from the tradition and the time-tested expressions of church architecture. the Second Vatican Council http://www.catholicliturgy.com/images/sa10myths1.gif makes this clear in stating that . . . “The church has not adopted any particular style of art as her own. She has admitted styles from every period, in keeping with the natural characteristics and conditions of peoples and the needs of of the various rites. Thus in the course of the centuries she has brought into existence a treasury of art which must be preserved with every care. The art of our own times from every race and country shall also be given free scope in the Church, provided it bring to the task the reverence and honor due to the sacred buildings and rites. Thus it is enabled to join its voice to that wonderful chorus of praise in honor of the Catholic faith sung by great men in past ages.” (**Sacrosanctum Concilium)

*See the link below to find out what an Associate Professor at Notre Dame thinks.

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/ArticleText/Index/65/SubIndex/116/ArticleIndex/24

 

[Aquinian]

ByzCath:

The charge of heresy is a formal declaration from the Church.

Until such a time as the charge is leveled against a bishop though the proper channels and he is found guilty of such a charge by the competent authorities, no bishop is a heretic.

You are free to address your bishop, the archbishop whose archdiocese contains your diocese as a suffrage, the papal nuncio, as well as Rome, most likely the Congregation for Bishops and/or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

You could also contact a canon lawyer to find out what the proper steps would be in such a case.

But until such a time as the Church formally declares a bishop a heretic or removes him from his see, you are bound by obedience to the bishop whose diocese you live in.

Fascinating. Do you have any texts to support these assertions, or did you just make this stuff up?

Cheers,
Aquinian.

 

[Aquinian]

robertaf:

Excellent!
Since when, in the Church has lay folks decided what is heresy???
We might have our doubts about certain things but we are lacking the authority to decide what is heresy.

A few people seem not to be aware that throughout the history of the Church laymen have very often been the ones to identify heretics, warn others against them, and refuse communion with them. Somebody mentioned Nestorius, Patriarch of Constantinople. When he started preaching heresy, it was the layman Eusebius who denounced him in public, and the Church, in the Breviary, praises Eusebius for his actions.

You don’t need authority to know a heretic. You need the Faith. It takes authority to compel others - it only takes a sound mind to see the truth.

Regards,
Aquinian.

 

[usqueadmortem]

otm:

You are walking on thin ice when you refer to “Catholic architecture”. I don’t believe there is such a category; further, there are a number of Protestant churches, particularly older ones, which look an awful lot like Catholic churches.

OTM,
Actually, I am not walking on ice at all. And even if I were it would be very thick. SnorterLuster gave an excellent reply, and attached a good resource.
For an extra resource dellachiesa.com/ should be sufficient. Michael Rose is an architectural expert, and even includes an article on the prescriptions for church architecture given by Saint Robert Bellarmine, the Doctor of the Church.
Usque

 

[usqueadmortem]

Aquinian:

A few people seem not to be aware that throughout the history of the Church laymen have very often been the ones to identify heretics, warn others against them, and refuse communion with them. Somebody mentioned Nestorius, Patriarch of Constantinople. When he started preaching heresy, it was the layman Eusebius who denounced him in public, and the Church, in the Breviary, praises Eusebius for his actions.

You don’t need authority to know a heretic. You need the Faith. It takes authority to compel others - it only takes a sound mind to see the truth.

Regards,
Aquinian.

To add to this astute reply, it is up to the hierarchy to judge whether one is in FORMAL heresy or not. No layman can make such a judgement. However, material heresy can be discerned by any competent individual.

 

[Aquinian]

usqueadmortem:

To add to this astute reply, it is up to the hierarchy to judge whether one is in FORMAL heresy or not. No layman can make such a judgement. However, material heresy can be discerned by any competent individual.

And again, is there some text which makes this point? I’ve yet to see one, and I’ve been looking.

Cheers,
Aquinian.

 

[usqueadmortem]

Extract from Catholic Encyclopedia article on heresy newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_II

"…heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness–free choice–is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one’s own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal…

Later:
"Towards material heretics her conduct is ruled by the saying of St. Augustine: “Those are by no means to be accounted heretics who do not defend their false and perverse opinions with pertinacious zeal (animositas), especially when their error is not the fruit of audacious presumption but has been communicated to them by seduced and lapsed parents, and when they are seeking the truth with cautious solicitude and ready to be corrected”

It is necessary to continue in filial obedience to one’s rightful bishop, even if they have unknowingly lapsed into material heresy. What other link to the Holy See will you have if not through your bishop? (still I would suggest moving if you can)
But again, it makes no sense to follow them into material heresy, one can disobey their heresy.

One has to be prudent with obedience:
Catholic Encyclopedia article on Obedience.
"On the other hand the obligation to obedience to superiors under God admits of limitations. We are not bound to obey a superior in a matter which does not fall within the limits of his preceptive power. Thus for instance parents although entitled beyond question of the submission of their children until they become of age, have no right to command them to marry. Neither can a superior claim our obedience in contravention to the dispositions of higher authority. Hence, notably, we cannot heed the behests of any human power no matter how venerable or undisputed as against the ordinances of God. "

 

[Aquinian]

usqueadmortem:

Extract from Catholic Encyclopedia article on heresy newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_II

Yes, and where exactly does it say that the individual is not competent to notice pertinacity just as much as the heretical idea itself? You were quite definite about laymen being able to notice the matter of heresy, but not its form. Whence this idea of yours?

Further, Eusebius and the rest of the orthodox men of Constantinople refused more than “obedience” to Nestorius. They refused communion with him. That is, they rejected him as a usurper.

Cheers,
Aquinian.

 

[didymus]

Jaypeeto2:

Just by reading about and looking at the photos of his religious ed gatherings that he puts together in L.A. with all it’s blatantly heretical and sometimes blasphemous speakers, I don’t “seriously doubt” that he is a heretic at all. No orthodox person would do such things.

I was wondering somewhat the same thing in terms of Bishops issuing imprimaturs for books. Leaving aside “heresy” I’m sure some Bishops are less theologically sound than others – and many probably aren’t all that interested in theology at all.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

usqueadmortem:

To add to this astute reply, it is up to the hierarchy to judge whether one is in FORMAL heresy or not. No layman can make such a judgement. However, material heresy can be discerned by any competent individual.

To your post and the poster you quoted, usqueadmortem, that very well, but we still have yet to hear examples of how the Cardinal is a heretic. I’m not obnoxiously trying to throw down a gauntlet, I’m just very interested. I’m no fan of Cardinal Mahony’s, but I do think it’s a serious charge to lay at his doorstep (really, anyone’s doorstep).

 

[Church_Militant]

It occurs to me that Jay is more concerned for his own soul, which is really the one that he has the first priority to attend to. I think that what he is asking is " Do I have to obey and go along with a bishop that I know is wrong?" And I’m sure that we all will agree that the answer to that is “No”.

That said, one cannot expect His Holiness to tear through his bishops (especially his American crazy bishops) this early in his pontificate, but I will bet that as time goes on you will see that he corrects many things. I trust the Holy Spirit and pray for His Holiness every day as he has asked us to.

However, remember that disobedient members of the church, whether clergy or lay will generally continue in their disobedience because it’s a moral choice. That will then become a different ball game alltogether, and the opening pitch of that has not yet even been thrown.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[usqueadmortem]

Aquinian:

usqueadmortem:

Extract from Catholic Encyclopedia article on heresy newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_II

Yes, and where exactly does it say that the individual is not competent to notice pertinacity just as much as the heretical idea itself? You were quite definite about laymen being able to notice the matter of heresy, but not its form. Whence this idea of yours?

Further, Eusebius and the rest of the orthodox men of Constantinople refused more than “obedience” to Nestorius. They refused communion with him. That is, they rejected him as a usurper.

Cheers,
Aquinian.

It appears you have caught me in a blunder. I cannot find the source I learned this from. I am almost sure I read it in a reliable source though (I would never have asserted it if I weren’t). But in any case I am forced to retract it.
But clearly, one must be extremely careful when attributing motives to someone.
Good show.
Usque.

 

[usqueadmortem]

JKirkLVNV:

To your post and the poster you quoted, usqueadmortem, that very well, but we still have yet to hear examples of how the Cardinal is a heretic. I’m not obnoxiously trying to throw down a gauntlet, I’m just very interested. I’m no fan of Cardinal Mahony’s, but I do think it’s a serious charge to lay at his doorstep (really, anyone’s doorstep).

Greetings!
From you post it is obvious I must clear something up. I NEVER intended to lay charges of heresy at anyone’s doorstep. I was merely discussing the issue in a hypothetical sense, the question was originally phrased that way.
I pointed out that Cardinal Mahoney’s Cathedral (by that I mean that he was the one who drew up plans for it and ordered it to be built) is not in keeping with sound, Catholic architectural principles. But that is not a sufficient reason to lay charges of heresy against him.
I hope this clears things up.
Pax Christi!
Usque.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Jaypeeto2:

I know we have to be in communion with Rome and avoid schism, but what do you do if your local bishop (like a famous archbishop in southern California) is an open and modernist heretic? Shouldn’t you suspend your obedience to such a person? What should you do in such a situation? Heretics, after all, lose all jurisdiction… Love, Jaypeeto2

Sometimes people define orthodoxy more narrowly than the Church ​

What anyone can do, is pray - not least for the alleged heretic. ##

 

[benedictusoblat]

robertaf:

Excellent!
Since when, in the Church has lay folks decided what is heresy???
We might have our doubts about certain things but we are lacking the authority to decide what is heresy.

I am a former Southern Californian and have met, written and received letters from Cardinal Mahoney. I have attended his Masses, heard his homilies and have nothing but the deepest love and respect for him. He is a deeply Spiritual man, whether you believe it or not.

Do I lean in the same direction he does? Maybe not. So what???
Who says you must.
St Paul did not lean in the same direction St Peter did.
For many years, Mother Angelica, the hero to many was a Catholic Charismatic. Later she denied any association with the Charismatic Renewal.

What makes a good Catholic??? What makes a heretic?

The usual answer is " A good Catholic is anyone who agrees with ME!" a heretic is anyone who disagrees with ME.

Sounds to me like “moral relativism” is rearing its ugly head again. Of course no one can answer the question “what makes a good Catholic?” to the satisfaction of someone who doesn’t want to agree …

According to the legalists in the community, no layperson can legitimately claim that someone is a heretic. Only the Church can do that.
If that accurately reflects what some of you think … think about what you are saying. Bishop Bozo denies the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament at Noon on May 22, 2005. Five hundred people hear him. Three hundred people don’t care. A hundred believe every word he says "because he’s the bishop and the Holy Father wouldn’t send us a bishop who was ignorant or a heretic. Another hundred people are incensed because they know he is wrong. They know he has publicly taught heresy. Of these, 90 do nothing and 10 publicly rebuke the bishop for leading people astray, scandal and the “H” word. These trouble makers are heckeled for their lack of respect and charity. They’re the same group of malcontents that want the Church to unreasonably provide the teaching and environment necessary for them to save their souls and to pursue spiritual perfection.

Bishop Bozo publicly teaches heresy on May 22, 2005 and his people should all walk out on him at that very moment. To do anything else smacks of cowardice or servile clericalism. Let the ecclesiastical courts work at whatever pace they may, a Catholic is bound to act to protect his Faith when it is menaced. Unfortunately a certain Archbishop in Southern California is clearly a menace to the Catholic faith of his flock.

Of course this man is “spiritual”! He’s not a stock broker. He’s not a Marine. So what if he is “spiritual.” Billy Graham is more spiritual than most Catholics … and he’s a heretic. Anyone who treats the Blessed Sacrament with the level of disrespect that a certain Archbishop in southern California shows is a heretic in my book. I don’t have to track him down and force him to publicly deny the truth about the Real Presence. His actions “speak louder than words.” It is incumbent upon this scandalous prelate to prove the contrary to a Catholic world, many of whom are deeply scandalized by his conduct.

Having said all that, I would still show him respect in public. Just like I would Billy Graham.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JKirkLVNV:

I think the poster may have been referring to something I said in an earlier post. I commented on the ugly cathedral Cardinal Mahony built. I freely admit that my observations about it are entirely subjective. I mentioned it in the context of “I don’t like it, but it doesn’t make Cardinal Mahony a heretic.” The “Rog Mahal” is often mentioned in these forums as an excellent example of what the Church should avoid in terms of architecture and decor for the setting of the Holy Liturgy of the Mass. Also, many people on these forums are directly subject to the Cardinal and loath the Cathedral (that’s were I picked up the term “Rog Mahal”) and he is, if not exactly my bishop, then at least my metropolitan archbishop, so I will feel free to comment on his ugly edifice.

At least the new Cathedral in Los Angeles appears to have some of the features one associates with a Catholic church - and one assumes that the altar is at the east end.​

The same cannot be said of the new Church in Tor Tre Teste, in the diocese of Rome - the Italian Rome, that is. It is one of fifty being built to mark the new millennium.

It looks like a cross between Sydney Opera House and an aircraft hangar which has had an argument with a public urinal, and is the most repulsive church building I have seen in pictures. There was a number of articles in “Inside the Vatican” about it, several years ago - the Diocese of Rome was so short of Catholic architects (apparently), that they chose a non-Christian to build it.

Projects of Interest

Jubilee Church by Richard Meier

Church Dio Padre Misericordioso (Jubilee Church)

Richard Meier, the Church of the Year 2000, Rome

If Cardinal Mahony is a heretic because of the new Cathedral - what does that make the corresponding clergy in Rome ? ##

 

[chicago]

benedictusoblat:

Bishop Bozo…

Who ordained Joey D’Auria?!