What if you're wrong?

[warpspeedpetey]

More than that cannot be claimed or proven - of any religion.

what makes you think that Christianity cannot prove its validity beyond any reaonable doubt?

 

[anon5216]

what makes you think that Christianity cannot prove its validity beyond any reaonable doubt?

Validity is one thing.

Is it possible to achieve spiritual results within Christianity?
Of course. The saints are proof of that.
But then again, there are saints proving the validity of many other religious traditions as well.

Proving every last belief claimed as infallible is another thing entirely.
(Or for other religions, their generally accepted beliefs).

It is not believing a set of standardized beliefs that transformed the saints into saints.
They had to go far, far beyond mere belief.

 

[paul_c]

Validity is one thing.

Is it possible to achieve spiritual results within Christianity?
Of course. The saints are proof of that.
But then again, there are saints proving the validity of many other religious traditions as well.

Proving every last belief claimed as infallible is another thing entirely.
(Or for other religions, their generally accepted beliefs).

It is not believing a set of standardized beliefs that transformed the saints into saints.
They had to go far, far beyond mere belief.

True, but they were grounded in the Faith of the Church. You need to start there…

 

[Awake]

You stated as fact derogatory things about me which are not true.

Perhaps my response was uncharitable. I apologize if I have offended you.

And you seem extremely hostile to any exploration of your premises, such as that God may say that large areas of Catholic morality are actually immoral. But you haven’t offered any examples of such potentially immoral Catholic teaching, or shown how and where God may have revealed to mankind that these things are actually immoral.

No, I’m not hostile to exploring the premise. It’s just that I don’t want to get sidetracked with a debate on morality. Many people have different beliefs about God as well as morality, so I’m proposing the question of what if you don’t actually have the right belief.

 

[Awake]

The only answer that I have is…

Since I have no idea what other religon teaches…

I believe that morality is in all humans and is the same in all humans. From what I know about most of the other religons of the world the moral teachings are pretty close to the same. There are minor differences but still close to equal. So I would have to hope that my life would have been lived according to the universal moral code that this (fictional) god would have written.

Yeah, I think that’s what most people would hope for.

 

[Awake]

You know, Awake, the more I think about this, the more I realize that the question you pose (highlighted above) is not a corrolary of the Question,"

The correct corrolary of that question to the believer, is
. In this case, you would actually never know, because you would simply stop existing.

The question you pose, is much different. The question you pose is really one of questioning your own values and beliefs within the construct of the existence of God.

True. I’ve always thought the question of “What if you die and no deity exists” is somewhat silly, because you would be dead at that point and it wouldn’t really matter.

What I think is the more intriguing question (for both atheists and theists) is “What if you die and God tells you that your beliefs were wrong?”

 

[Awake]

what makes you think that Christianity cannot prove its validity beyond any reaonable doubt?

This is getting somewhat sidetracked from the original question, but many people look into Christianity, but don’t come to believe. It may seem obvious and even provable to you, but non-Christians (who believe the same thing about their religion) would feel differently.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Validity is one thing.

Is it possible to achieve spiritual results within Christianity?
Of course. The saints are proof of that.
But then again, there are saints proving the validity of many other religious traditions as well.

Proving every last belief claimed as infallible is another thing entirely.
(Or for other religions, their generally accepted beliefs).

It is not believing a set of standardized beliefs that transformed the saints into saints.
They had to go far, far beyond mere belief.

i meant valid as in the provable truth. the only true religion.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

This is getting somewhat sidetracked from the original question, but many people look into Christianity, but don’t come to believe. It may seem obvious and even provable to you, but non-Christians (who believe the same thing about their religion) would feel differently.

it may seem that way from a standpoint of ‘feelings’ but i am a saying that its truth is objectively, mathematically provable beyond any reasonable doubt

other faiths all have fatal flaws that make them untenable positions when exposed to the light of rationalism.

as such there is only one True Faith.

 

[Awake]

it may seem that way from a standpoint of ‘feelings’ but i am a saying that its truth is objectively, mathematically provable beyond any reasonable doubt

other faiths all have fatal flaws that make them untenable positions when exposed to the light of rationalism.

as such there is only one True Faith.

But no matter how many logical arguments you may be able to make, you still have to backtrack to a point where you just have to believe.

That doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, it’s just that ultimately, faith is still required.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

But no matter how many logical arguments you may be able to make, you still have to backtrack to a point where you just have to believe.

That doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, it’s just that ultimately, faith is still required.

i dont think your fully grasping what i am saying, i can make a mathematical argument in favor of Christianity that no other faith can match.

specifically the convergence of disparate Messianic prophecies in the person of Christ.

 

[rick43235]

True. I’ve always thought the question of “What if you die and no deity exists” is somewhat silly, because you would be dead at that point and it wouldn’t really matter.

Interesting discussion. But, what makes you think that a life after this one is dependent upon the existence of some deity?

 

[Awake]

i dont think your fully grasping what i am saying, i can make a mathematical argument in favor of Christianity that no other faith can match.

specifically the convergence of disparate Messianic prophecies in the person of Christ.

Well I am interested now to hear your mathematical argument.

 

[Awake]

Interesting discussion. But, what makes you think that a life after this one is dependent upon the existence of some deity?

Point taken. I guess I would have a hard time imagining any sort of life after our physical death if nothing spiritual existed. We would probably have to further define what is meant by a “deity”.

 

[rick43235]

Point taken. I guess I would have a hard time imagining any sort of life after our physical death if nothing spiritual existed. We would probably have to further define what is meant by a “deity”.

I probably should have said “an existance” after this one rather than “a life.”

 

[Awake]

I probably should have said “an existance” after this one rather than “a life.”

Even still… All of the atoms that my body is made of already existed before I was born, yet I have no concept of “existence” before I was born. So if nothing spiritual exists, I don’t quite have a concept of “existence” after death.

But who knows?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Well I am interested now to hear your mathematical argument.

sure,

there were dozens of messianic prophecies written over millenia, by people who did not live in the same places or times, speak the same language, share the same culture, or know eachother at all, yet, those prophecies were fulifilled in the person of Christ

even if only a few of those prophecies were true, the mathematical odds are such as to assure the validity of Christianity beyond any reasonable doubt

no other faith can make these claims.

 

[anon5216]

Even still… All of the atoms that my body is made of already existed before I was born, yet I have no concept of “existence” before I was born. So if nothing spiritual exists, I don’t quite have a concept of “existence” after death.

But who knows?

Consciousness exists independent of atoms, and independent of religious conceptions.

It is also independent of thoughts and emotions, which is why the awareness of existence before being born or after dying is not a simple thing.

 

[sodak]

I hear believers often challenge atheists by asking “What if you die and you’re wrong and God does exist?” This is a fair question.

If I were an atheist, I would probably apologize to God and explain that based on what I had seen and experienced in the world, my conclusion was that he probably didn’t exist. However, since I’m not perfect, I came to the wrong conclusion.

Now, what if the same question was posed to you? What if you died and God said to you “You picked the wrong religion. Much of the morality that your religion taught was actually immoral”?

If the morality of my religion was wrong, we’d have all been wiped out long ago by a vengeful and angry God. Face it, all the times through history that people have turned their backs on God, if he weren’t perfect and all-loving, well, he wouldn’t have stopped at just Sodom and Gemorrah. He would have sank Noah’s boat, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation!

 

[anon5216]

If the morality of my religion was wrong, we’d have all been wiped out long ago by a vengeful and angry God. Face it, all the times through history that people have turned their backs on God, if he weren’t perfect and all-loving, well, he wouldn’t have stopped at just Sodom and Gemorrah. He would have sank Noah’s boat, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation!

The morality and descriptions of the Divine given by other religions could be correct.

Why always this assertion of the only other option besides Catholic dogmas has to be absurd nonsense?