What if you're wrong?

[thistle]

The morality and descriptions of the Divine given by other religions could be correct.

Why always this assertion of the only other option besides Catholic dogmas has to be absurd nonsense?

Because Jesus, who is GOD, established the Catholic Church. ALL other religions were founded by men!

 

[Awake]

sure,

there were dozens of messianic prophecies written over millenia, by people who did not live in the same places or times, speak the same language, share the same culture, or know eachother at all, yet, those prophecies were fulifilled in the person of Christ

even if only a few of those prophecies were true, the mathematical odds are such as to assure the validity of Christianity beyond any reasonable doubt

no other faith can make these claims.

Well, fulfilled prophecies are often very vague, and can be made to look like it accurately predicts something. (Much like the same way that a daily horoscope can appear to actually predict one’s day.)

Considering how many cultures have existed throughout time and how many people have made predictions, it should come as no surprise that “dozens” of predictions look as they might have matched up with a particular person.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Well, fulfilled prophecies are often very vague, and can be made to look like it accurately predicts something. (Much like the same way that a daily horoscope can appear to actually predict one’s day.)

Considering how many cultures have existed throughout time and how many people have made predictions, it should come as no surprise that “dozens” of predictions look as they might have matched up with a particular person.

there are way to many specifics.

name, location of birth, lineage, manner of death, etc, etc, etc.

all the prophecies are written by many people who did not have anyway to cooperate.

vagueness is not an issue in many of the prophecies, they are extremely specific.

please see these links, this aint something that can be passed off easily.

clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml

christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html

thedevineevidence.com/prophecy_jesus.html

konig.org/messianic.htm

not to overwhelm you these are just the first 4.

unless your going to claim a massive conspiracy spanning thousands of years, and hundreds of people, i think that should be sufficient.

further, the disciples, the actual physical witnesses of the fulfillment of these prophecies and actions of Christ led horribly dangerous, lives of poverty, and deprivation, risking life and limb for decades after the Crucifixion, then, in the end they were tortured to death rather than recant their belief.

i would doubt any miracles i saw 40 or 50 years after the fact, but the idea that these men and their own followers accepted death by torture rather than recanting, means to me that the experience of those miracles was so strong as to be more important than their very lives.

i cannot reasonably believe in any ‘conspiracy’

so as the prophecies are many, and most specific in nature, i see that Christianity is a mathematical certainty

if you peruse all the prophecies, you will see that many are very specific. if only a few are true, the mathematical odds quickly become overwhelming

 

[Awake]

there are way to many specifics.

name, location of birth, lineage, manner of death, etc, etc, etc.

all the prophecies are written by many people who did not have anyway to cooperate.

vagueness is not an issue in many of the prophecies, they are extremely specific.

please see these links, this aint something that can be passed off easily.

clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml

christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html

thedevineevidence.com/prophecy_jesus.html

konig.org/messianic.htm

not to overwhelm you these are just the first 4.

unless your going to claim a massive conspiracy spanning thousands of years, and hundreds of people, i think that should be sufficient.

further, the disciples, the actual physical witnesses of the fulfillment of these prophecies and actions of Christ led horribly dangerous, lives of poverty, and deprivation, risking life and limb for decades after the Crucifixion, then, in the end they were tortured to death rather than recant their belief.

i would doubt any miracles i saw 40 or 50 years after the fact, but the idea that these men and their own followers accepted death by torture rather than recanting, means to me that the experience of those miracles was so strong as to be more important than their very lives.

i cannot reasonably believe in any ‘conspiracy’

so as the prophecies are many, and most specific in nature, i see that Christianity is a mathematical certainty

if you peruse all the prophecies, you will see that many are very specific. if only a few are true, the mathematical odds quickly become overwhelming

Just browsing through these sites, it looks like all of these prophecies are from one source: the OT.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Just browsing through these sites, it looks like all of these prophecies are from one source: the OT.

of course. but the OT isnt one source. its 46 different books, collected into one canon.

it was written over millenia, by many different authors, who did not know that their writings would be kept, much less collected into what we call the OT.

 

[Awake]

of course. but the OT isnt one source. its 46 different books, collected into one canon.

it was written over millenia, by many different authors, who did not know that their writings would be kept, much less collected into what we call the OT.

Well now you’re using scripture to prove scripture. That’s circular reasoning. This isn’t a mathematical proof because you need to have faith that in the Scriptures to actually believe.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I hear believers often challenge atheists by asking “What if you die and you’re wrong and God does exist?” This is a fair question.

If I were an atheist, I would probably apologize to God and explain that based on what I had seen and experienced in the world, my conclusion was that he probably didn’t exist. However, since I’m not perfect, I came to the wrong conclusion.

Now, what if the same question was posed to you? What if you died and God said to you “You picked the wrong religion. Much of the morality that your religion taught was actually immoral”?

That sounds no different from any form of Christianity anyway. They attack one another for being wrong, but that does nothing to show where - if anywhere - the truth of the matter lies.​

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Well now you’re using scripture to prove scripture. That’s circular reasoning. This isn’t a mathematical proof because you need to have faith that in the Scriptures to actually believe.

im actually using prophecies from many different books, to prove the validity of a later conclusion.

the books of the bible weren’t ‘scripture’ until 315 A.D. the bible is composed of many different books written by many different people who could not have known eachother.

when you say that i am using scripture to prove scripture you arent allowing for that fact. ‘scripture’ is the common word for a dispararte collection of books. it is not one book but rather a collection like an encyclopedia.

therefore i am not actually trying to prove something with itself.

now onto faith in the scriptures.

with what we are discussing one needs to believe only 2 things

1. the veracity of the prophecy

thats obvious. Jewish tradition, the dead sea scrolls, etc. are proof enough for the existence of the books of the OT.

1. the veracity of the Messiah

thats obvious also. He started the Catholic church, we still have the bones of the Apostle Peter, to whom Christ promised the authority to start a church.

so both these points are obvious as to historicity.

no ‘faith’ in scripture is required for this particular discussion.

this is purely about the mathematical mechanics of the fullfillment of any portion of those prophecies in the person of Christ.

so maybe you mean you disbelieve something else?