What if......?

[JonNC]

So, Jon, roughly 70% of humanity (the non-Christian world) is dead-wrong about religion, even though much of it has practiced its own versions of religion beginning long before the appearance of Christianity? To me, that doesn’t seem likely. What does that say about God – that He wants to communicate with only 30% of his human creatures?

That’s pretty much it, though the Jews were right up until the messiah. It doesn’t say anything about God, it says something about mankind. “He that has ears, let him hear.”
Now, I don’t deny the possiblility of God communicating to non-Christians through their false beliefs, nor do I deny that God can bring people to Him in any manner He chooses. He is God, after all. But when I confess the Nicene or Apostles or Athanasian Creed, I belive what it says.

My take on this is that you follow-up questions are far from the initial “what it…?” Do you agree?

Jon

 

[CHRISTINE77]

What if whatever you believe in comes true? For example Catholics would have purgatory, Heaven and Hell, Mormons would have Tellestial, Terrestrial and Celestial Heavens, Muslims would have Paradise, Hindus would have reincarnation, and atheists would have nothing.

 

[Lapell]

But what if you discover that many of the things you were taught to do, to believe, for your salvation, during your lifetime, were unnecessary, in light of the fact that God transcends such human conventions? For example, why is it that when we execute our rituals, they are superior to those performed by Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc., etc.? If you say, 'Well, they’re not", then how necessary are they, in the first place, when God considers any and all of them legitimate? What makes ours sacred? Why are they necessary, if not ordered by God, if everything is relative in the end?

You sound like you have listened and seen too many episodes of “The Outer Limits” or other science-fiction series and movies, most of them based of the question: What if?

 

[Lapell]

They might not be bad to bring you to think twice about many things, but ultimately what’s there is fiction when what we have to face every day is concrete, real, down-to-earth life… it is more than enough, provided we could stop every once in a while to look around us…

 

[Riseof_Rome]

Do not entertain doubts.

Great point. He won’t be. And He won’t be Catholic either. Just as Jesus wasn’t a Christian. God is truth, the Catholic Church is the closest thing to truth we can possibly get while on earth.

 

[ParkerD]

WHAT IF God is not as we perceive Him? WHAT IF God is a universal God, one who has been communicating with Man in many ways, not just through Catholicism? I think that’s a clearly stated question. I believe the more deeply we dig ourselves into denominational, sectarian ‘trenches’, the more we project ourselves onto God, and make Him a reflection of ourselves.

King Alfred,
Interesting questions you have posed, with an interesting follow-up statement to think about. I believe God will be far more benevolent than many of humankind project through their own beliefs of “how He is.”

Yet the Bible implies and teaches us that religion ought to make something of us that we would not be without it, something bigger than ourselves that enables us to view every person we meet with compassion and the yearning to help relieve suffering and to forgive offenses so that we may all make progress toward inner peace and a more peaceful world.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

King Alfred,
Interesting questions you have posed, with an interesting follow-up statement to think about. I believe God will be far more benevolent than many of humankind project through their own beliefs of “how He is.”

Yet the Bible implies and teaches us that religion ought to make something of us that we would not be without it, something bigger than ourselves that enables us to view every person we meet with compassion and the yearning to help relieve suffering and to forgive offenses so that we may all make progress toward inner peace and a more peaceful world.

Sounds like you believe in the Kingdom Come on Earth (as it is in Heaven)! I agree Parker, that’s the most important thing, that we try to create Heaven on Earth, and it starts with having trying to be more like Jesus - not judging, not trying to grab too much, and treating others as how we would like to be treated.

 

[KingAlfred]

But what do you mean by what if? God is not as we perceive him. Any sincere person of religion, especially one who is most devout, will readily admit to that. This doesn’t mean that our perceptions of God are false, but the Church has always said that our perceptions are incomplete. That is one reason we refer to ourselves as “a pilgrim Church.” And though we proclaim that God’s revelation of himself is complete in the person and experience of Jesus Christ, we do not claim to fully comprehend that revelation. That is why the Church constantly refers to God’s presence among us in terms of mystery. As to your second question, again, the Church has always proclaimed that God is a universal God and has communicated with humanity in many ways, and certainly not through the Catholic Church alone. After all, we admit to and believe in God’s revelation of himself to the Jewish people. We also believe that God is present to those who do not share the Christian faith, and missionaries will often tell you that the missionary experience is about discovering the presence of God as he is already present in a culture and not simply a matter of bringing preconceived notions of God as present in one culture to overlay it atop another. I agree that we often focus on our own particular denomination and tend to see God through the prism of our own culture, and though the truth we know of God through our own denomination or culture is not false, neither does one culture fully capture God’s presence among his creation and neither can we claim our understanding of God’s revelation through our own denomination is full and clear.

We do claim to be ‘right’, however. Why do we do that?

 

[KingAlfred]

That’s pretty much it, though the Jews were right up until the messiah. It doesn’t say anything about God, it says something about mankind. “He that has ears, let him hear.”
Now, I don’t deny the possiblility of God communicating to non-Christians through their false beliefs, nor do I deny that God can bring people to Him in any manner He chooses. He is God, after all. But when I confess the Nicene or Apostles or Athanasian Creed, I belive what it says.

My take on this is that you follow-up questions are far from the initial “what it…?” Do you agree?

Jon

Not really. I think it’s illogical to believe that only one religion or approach to God is ‘correct’, when the human story shows all people have been searching for God from the very beginning. Do we take a broad approach to God, or a narrow one?

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5245451:

I think you make a good point, here. It’s easy to project ourselves onto God and I daresay a lot of people do it at one time or another. I think it occurs when people fall into the trap of embracing the sort of religious stance that insists upon conformity but sneers at tolerance and compassion. I encountered a lot of this behavior in the Evangelical world, which unfortunately seems to breed a fair number of religionists of this genre.

My younger son, Joe, had an illuminating encounter with some religionists not long after he became a Bible–believing Christian. He’d gone to visit somebody in hospital when he encountered a trio of granite–faced females who were stealthily prowling the hospital corridors with catlike tread indulging in the sort of condemnation that religious people thrive on. One of them stood squarely in Joey’s path and pointedly announced:

If you were to die tonight, do you know that you would go to heaven?

Joe affirmed he did know that he would go to heaven but to no avail. Listening wasn’t on her agenda and she just launched into her memorized tirade of sundry threats and condemnation. Eventually, Joey was able to get away from her and get on with his visit.

What’s with people like that? Answer: Religion.

Religious people are bad news. Religious people have complete certainty about their own righteousness, which frees up their time and allows them to concentrate on the wrongs of others.

Religious people aren’t particularly interested in influencing others but they’re extremely interested in gaining power through the legislature and implementing their agenda by statute.

Religious people dismiss compassion as a sign of weakness and invariably choose condemnation rather than mercy.

Religious people are joyless and unkind and because of that they probably account for much of the anti–God sentiment that is often heard, these days.

Paradoxically, it’s the religious people who are usually first to condemn those who express such sentiment.

Religious people actually enjoy judging their neighbors. It may even be true to say that the main reason people steer clear of churches in this country (Yooessovay) is because of the religious people.

In short, religious people give religion a bad name.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:I agree with much of what you’ve posted, but I would note that where you use the term “religious” I would use the term “ideological.”

I follow.

Religion, when perceived as an ideology, is false because it sees nothing beyond its own experience.

Engaging notion.

Ironically, those who are most religious, Mother Theresa, for instance, or St. Joseph Frienademetz or St. Daniel Comboni, are seldom ideological and admit that the more they come to know God, the more they realize how little they know of him.

Saint Gregory Palamas posits that it is impossible to know God in his essence (God in Himself), but possible to know God in his energies (to know what God does, and who God is in relation to the creation and to man), as God reveals Himself to humanity (check it out).

Religious people don’t give religion a bad name, ideologues do.

I’d been thinking about the word “religion” in the way Evangelicals often think about it. During my time within their ranks, I often heard Evangelicals assert that Biblical Christianity is not a “religion” but a “relationship.” In this view, religion is usually described along the lines of “man doing things in order to find favor with the divine,” whereas Biblical Christianity would be “rejoicing in what God has done for us.” It’s this way of thinking that leads Evangelicals to suppose that Catholics believe in salvation by works.

But I was just indulging myself in one of my favorite rants as the thread title perhaps allows speculation on just about anything – although I suppose I should have concluded by asking a pertinent question connected to my gripe e.g. What if…

What if all the religious people packed their bags and moved to Canada?

Speculatively,
Mick

 

[Tsuwano]

We do claim to be ‘right’, however. Why do we do that?

We claim to be recipients of God’s revelation of himself. We claim that this revelation is true. The very purpose of the Church is to bear witness to this truth.

 

[Tsuwano]

I follow.

Engaging notion.

Saint Gregory Palamas posits that it is impossible to know God in his essence (God in Himself), but possible to know God in his energies (to know what God does, and who God is in relation to the creation and to man), as God reveals Himself to humanity (check it out).

I’d been thinking about the word “religion” in the way Evangelicals often think about it. During my time within their ranks, I often heard Evangelicals assert that Biblical Christianity is not a “religion” but a “relationship.” In this view, religion is usually described along the lines of “man doing things in order to find favor with the divine,” whereas Biblical Christianity would be “rejoicing in what God has done for us.” It’s this way of thinking that leads Evangelicals to suppose that Catholics believe in salvation by works.

But I was just indulging myself in one of my favorite rants as the thread title perhaps allows speculation on just about anything – although I suppose I should have concluded by asking a pertinent question connected to my gripe e.g. What if…

What if all the religious people packed their bags and moved to Canada?

Speculatively,
Mick

Thank you for the link to the information about St. Gregory Palamas. What an interesting man! I plan to read a little bit more about him.

I thought all the religious people already were in Canada.

 

[JonNC]

Not really. I think it’s illogical to believe that only one religion or approach to God is ‘correct’, when the human story shows all people have been searching for God from the very beginning. Do we take a broad approach to God, or a narrow one?

Scripture teaches a narrow approach; “no one comes to the Father except by me.” But God can do anything He wishes to bring people to Him.

Jon

 

[SSTeacher]

Scripture teaches a narrow approach; “no one comes to the Father except by me.” But God can do anything He wishes to bring people to Him.

Jon

Hi Jon,

Perhaps it’s the attitude of Calvinists that causes distress to people? What if all the Calvinists packed their bags and moved to Geneva?

Hopefully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Thank you for the link to the information about St. Gregory Palamas.

You’re welcome.

What an interesting man!

I think so, too.

Agreeably,
Mick

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

Perhaps it’s the attitude of Calvinists that causes distress to people? What if all the Calvinists packed their bags and moved to Geneva?

Hopefully,
Mick

Luther would approve.

Seriously, I hadn’t thought of that angle to the What if…?.

Jon

 

[Borknagar]

We claim to be recipients of God’s revelation of himself. We claim that this revelation is true. The very purpose of the Church is to bear witness to this truth.

I thought it was to bugger little boys and then turn the other cheek

 

[SSTeacher]

Tsuwano;5248822:

We claim to be recipients of God’s revelation of himself. We claim that this revelation is true. The very purpose of the Church is to bear witness to this truth.

I thought it was to bugger little boys and then turn the other cheek

What if,

There once was a bigot from Norway
To whom atheism seemed such a sure way
Much went over his head
Until he was dead
And was buried outside his own doorway

Well, you know what they say. One door shuts, another door closes.

Poetically,
Mick

 

[Tsuwano]

I thought it was to bugger little boys and then turn the other cheek

You thought wrong. Perhaps you shouldn’t think so hard.