I see where you drew that conclusion but the encyclopedia is a short article and not all encompassing. I am sure that you consider Carroll also biased but he does research well as I said with many citations. He is a very good historian. I wish I could quote all he said about this event which he considered indefensible.
**
I own perhaps 8-9 major bios of Heny, but am notaware that any report any last words. One usual stroy is that he was unable to spek at the end, and that Cranmer was preent at his bedside (rue) and that Henry made some sort of communication with him by squeeing his hand (possible). The consensus is that he was unable to speak, at the end, AFAIK.**
Hi GKC,
Hi Jim, apparently, from what I read, King Henry VIII’s last words were, “MONKS, MONKS!” which might have been the result of him having delusions. I was thinking that he might have been repentant for his actions against the clergy – all those monks and nuns he made homeless as a result of the closure of the monasteries and religious houses.
Do you have any (name removed by moderator)ut? You are much more knowledgeable in this area then I would ever care to be! Some people claim he became a Protestant on his deathbed, I know that he advocated Catholic ceremony and doctrine throughout his life. Royal backing of the English Reformation was left to his heirs, the devout Edward VI and the renowned Elizabeth I, whilst daughter Mary I temporarily reinstated papal authority over England.
IMO, I think Henry had a well developed Catholic conscience which he suppressed when it got in the way of his plans. If so, it would seem that he would definitely be having some regrets on his death bed for the kinds of actions.
God Bless **
Depends on what you mean by considered. It is correct that at the time, Henry would have used the word “divorce”, when asking for what was technically a decree of nullity. Divorce in the sense of ending a valid marriage was unknown then. And many current scholars use the term, today, in discussing Henry. J. J. Scarisbrick, whose HENRY VIII I highly recommend, both for Henry in general, and for the details of his Great Matter, uses the term divorce. I was rereading a portion of G. R. Elton’s (Scarisbrick was a student of Elton) ENGLAND UNDER THE TUDORS last week, and around page 100 he has a footnote where he says, in effect, “I’m going to call it a divorce. It was a common term at the time and as long as you know what it meant, it’s not incorrect to use it”.
Added.
Thanks. I have been fascinated with Henry but never have delved into it very much. It is rumored in the family that we are descended from that family.
I have not idea how we would prove it one way or the other.As to the first question, Henry’s claim in his causa was that the dispensation issued by Julius II, which allowed Henry to wed Catherine, within the Levetical prohibitions, was ultra vires, beyond the Pope’s power, as involving divine, and not natural law. There certainly are such cases, but whether the one Henry presented was, at the time, among them, is historically debatable. That is, it could have gone either way. But claiming Juluis acted ultra vires, and taking into account the 800 pound gorilla in the room, Charles, put Henry at a distinct disadvantage, and he lost, politically. He actually had a much stronger case, in an unresolved impediment of the justice of public honesty, but I pass over that.Thanks. I have been fascinated with Henry but never have delved into it very much. It is rumored in the family that we are descended from that family.
I do have one more question.
I have wondered if in todays world the marriage to Catherine would be annulled. It was a different word then. But did he have much choice in marrying Catherine?
My memory is awful. Age. And my (very extensive, believe me) library is not in the same house with my computer. So I often have to rely on failing synapses, or run down and look stuff up.**
Hi GKC,
Darn! I hate it when my mind does this to me! I read that some where I clearly remember MONKS MONKS! and remember wondering why? Now I have to research myself to see if my memory is failing me more than “Normal!”
God Bless**
**Hi GKC,
**Since last we spoke, I’ve looked in a few more bios on the shelf. The most complete account of Hank’s death was in Smith’s HENRY VIII: THE MASK OF ROYALTY (a very fascinating book). More details, more conversation, until the last sleep, more names of who was there, doctors, comings and goings, etc. But not there, or anywhere else, is there a mention of Monks. IMO, as I said, it is a myth.**Hi GKC,
Jim I found this reference: Click on: Stanford **
Under Hank’s death it says Monks, Monks, Monks were his last words! However I agree with your post. IOt doesn’t matter just ‘bugged’ me. That I knew something but didn’t actually!
made legal for people to get divorce?..is it why divorce is so common? who knows…
Hello GKC,
Henry didn’t have the rules changed for him, save in that he stopped the process at the water’s edge. The rules always permitted the Archbishop of Canterbury to pronounce a decree of nullity for him, or any in the realm. Indeed, Clement dearly hoped the case would not come to him. But the rules also permitted Catherine to make a direct appeal, and she did. Henry put an end to that in 1533, with the Act in Restraint of Appeals.
**Hi GKC,
Your determination is admirable. Keep me advised.**Hi GKC,
Jim, More ~ Monks, Monks, Monks!
Monk, Monks, Monks**
Monks. Monks, Monks
Monks, Monks, Monks
Monk, Monks, Monks
Monks. Monks, Monks
I can’t find the source of the quote ~ YET!
God Bless!